Tabor
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:

    Some dumb people in Amiga community expect others in Amiga community to fool themselves that pc with MOS is not pc. "no it is not a pc and I can not do my work hundred times faster on windows on exactly the some computer"
    It is obvious that on x86 AROS or MOS will compete with Windows, macOS and linux.
    Nobody sane will use MOS or AROS when the some work may be done in minuts on win/osx/lnx instead of hours on AROS or MOS.
    MOS x86 in current form end as AROS x86 as worse uae.



    Why do you keep repeating yourself over and over? The fear must be deep.
  • »04.01.20 - 19:23
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    Yes, as usually, in the far-away future v4 will have decent OpenGL and working MMU.
    Or not, as this whole natami crap prove.
    Amiga ppc has it NOW!!!
    So dear vox don't compare something real with something that exist for now only in gvb imagination.






    No "Amiga ppc" does not. What you are pushing advocacy for here is not "Amiga".
  • »04.01.20 - 19:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    We Amiga users use ppc Amigas because they are better Amigas than these produced by Commodore after ECS.
    Some idiots in Amiga community waste time on attacks on ppc because they think that if they attack enough long there will be switch to x86.
    This is not going to happen as long as Amiga solutions on x86 are shit compared to win/osx/lnx.
    So dear redrumloa stop this crap and start hard work on AROS or MOS on x86.
  • »06.01.20 - 09:35
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 503 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    We Amiga users use ppc Amigas because they are better Amigas than these produced by Commodore after ECS.



    AmigaOnes are in no way CBM/Escom continuation, and all except SAM440 had quirks and shortcomings not supported fully in OS4, or board was crippled in way (single SATA, slower mem. etc.).
    XE - bad mem and USB
    SAM 440 - only fully supported board, espec. M9 version
    SAM460 - unsupported DMA onboard SATA, even today
    x1000 - buggy CFE, no support for LAN, other core, 2GB+ PCI-E wired to Xena with no use,
    slower PCI slots, BETA OS TO PREPAID OS 4.2
    x5000 - no support for LAN, other core, 2GB+, PCI-E wired to Xena, less expandable then x1000
    STILL BETA OS NO FULL DRV, only good thing is MOS support (as with SAM460ex)
    x5000/040 - exists but its hidden, too expensive and not so fast by Linux tests
    Tabor - in Linux existance for few years
    STILL BETA OS NO FULL DRV

    None of great PPC board has out of box PPC Linux support in major distros LIKE ALL OTHER PPC32 and PPC64 computers do have!

    I mean, can you do a proper job, once in a while.

    Do a single CPU, OS4 max hw design or improve OS to hardware. Mac PPCs are great machines compared to this jungle



    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 14:16 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    A600 Plus from outer space (30% there)
    YT channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
    Telegram Amiga group: https://t.me/amigaranchorelaxo
  • »06.01.20 - 13:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    We Amiga users use ppc Amigas because they are better Amigas than these produced by Commodore after ECS.
    I have in the past a1200 it has many times too slow graphics - famous lack of chunky pixels.
    My various ppc Amigas even if not perfect deserve more on Amiga name than amiga 1200.
    At least graphics is as fast as on pc.
    Get lost dear vox.
  • »06.01.20 - 14:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    And of course most of my ppc Amigas works on Amiga OS that is direct continuation of it in my 1200.
  • »06.01.20 - 15:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > x1000 - [...] PCI-E wired to Xena

    While Xorro uses a PCIe x1 connector, it is not wired to the PA6T's PCIe subsystem.

    > x5000 - no support for LAN, [...] PCI-E wired to Xena

    Isn't Bigfoot's driver available through A-Eon by now?
    And while Xorro uses a PCIe x1 connector, it is not wired to the P5's PCIe subsystem.

    > x5000/040 - exists but its hidden

    X5000/40 was shown at Amiga34 in Neuss :-)

    > None of great PPC board has out of box PPC Linux support in
    > major distros LIKE ALL OTHER PPC32 and PPC64 computers do have!

    Official PPC32 support (including G3/G4 Macs) has vanished from almost all Linux distros and certainly from all major ones. Big-endian PPC64 (including G5 Macs) is a small bit better off.

    > Do a single CPU, OS4 max hw design [...]

    X1000 and X5000 are single-CPU ;-) PA6T was never available in single-core version, and using P5010 instead of P5020 would have saved some small dollars only (compared to overall board price). Bad decision was using a common board for P5020 and P5040, which are neither fully pin-compatible nor fully SerDes config compatible, resulting in crippling of P5020.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=12137&start=97
  • »06.01.20 - 15:54
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 503 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    As usual thanks for tech correction, but it barely changes hash reality of going
    from bad to worse.

    While G4 and G5 support was dropped recently from major distros, Deb PPC supports it fully even now and many a bit older distros can be installed.

    Au contrare, except from only paid x1000 Ubuntu in the world, there is no other distro that can CD Boot to x1000 and install without inserting kernel during install or DDing and inserting kernel via kernel files on slow SD card.

    And FAT16 SD card of 4GB corrupts itself (CFE bug?), Linux kernel cant boot from SFS, FFS,
    EXT2, EXT3 even manual claims it can. Or amigaboot.of from EXT2, EXT3, thus additional hidden FFS partition ... Utter mess.


    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 18:10 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    A600 Plus from outer space (30% there)
    YT channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
    Telegram Amiga group: https://t.me/amigaranchorelaxo
  • »06.01.20 - 17:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > While G4 and G5 support was dropped recently from major distros,
    > Deb PPC supports it fully even now

    Actually, the current Debian PPC status is as follows:
    PPC32 (G4): last supported release was Debian 8, since then maintained as community port
    PPC64 big-endian (G5): was never a supported release arch, maintained as community port
    PPC64 little-endian (POWER8+): supported release arch since Debian 8
    PPC-SPE (e500v2): was never a supported release arch, maintained as community port
  • »06.01.20 - 19:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > "[...] www.a1222plus.com [...] will be live in the next few days."

    It is now.

    Interesting read:
    "In 2014, A-EON Technology Ltd commissioned Varisys Ltd to design and produce the Tabor motherboard. A small batch of fifty was produced and distributed in a closed beta tester/developer programme. Our designers, Varisys, were subsequently acquired by Ultra Electronics and, five years on, several minor components used in the build process are no longer available from suppliers, so changes to the motherboard design became necessary. In 2018, A-EON Technology Ltd approached and entered into negotiations with Ultra Electronics to exclusively acquire the full design data. The process and delivery of design data was completed eleven months later. During 2019, A-EON approached members of the original Varisys team to help evolve the Tabor project. The A-EON A1222 Plus builds upon the older Tabor design with sections of the motherboard updated to address obsolescence of components. To ensure there are no hardware surprises at least five motherboards are being manufactured to prove the updated A1222 Plus design changes. Following the successful proof of design, the Early Adopter batch will be manufactured and it is currently estimated that delivery will commence in the second quarter of 2020."
    http://www.a1222plus.com/?page=progress
  • »12.01.20 - 14:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Strong opinion piece on Tabor:

    "My disenchantment with the current crop of PowerPC-based Amigas [...] is well-known. At their various asking prices you got embedded-class CPUs at mid-high desktop level prices with performance less than a generation-old Power Mac. (Many used and easily available models of which [...] can run MorphOS for considerably less cash out of pocket.) A-EON's AmigaOne X5000 in particular attracts my ire for actually running a CPU that doesn't have AltiVec to replace the X1000, which did. Part of this problem was the loss of availability of the PA6T-1682M CPU [...], but there were plenty better choices than the NXP P5020 which wasn't ever really intended for this application. [...] the original A1222 "Tabor" board [...] was specced [...] with [...] most controversially another grossly underpowered embedded core, a QorIQ P1022 at 1.2GHz. Based on the 32-bit e500v2 microarchitecture, it not only also lacks AltiVec but even a conventional FPU, something that for many years was not only standard on PowerPC CPUs but considered one of its particular strengths. As an embedded CPU, this was forgivable. As an embedded CPU in a modern general-purpose computing environment, however, this was unconscionable. Even by Amiga standards this was an odd choice and one with potential impacts for compatibility, and one a G5 or high-end Power Mac G4 would mop the floor with. [...] various other components needed updating. Strangely, the CPU was not among them. [...] if A-EON chose this CPU deliberately as an attempt to make the price of the system lower, they chose wrong. [...] Amiga has a long history in computing consciousness and most computer nerds would at least recognize the brand. Similarly, people still remember Power Macs, and [...] there's a rather pernicious and commonly-held belief that Apple's migration to Intel somehow "proved" the inferiority of Power ISA. Today, along comes yet another underwhelming PowerPC-based Amiga to confirm their preconceived notions: because it's Amiga, it sticks in people's minds, and because it confirms their own beliefs about PowerPC, it reinforces their unjustified biases. Regardless of the fact that POWER9 systems [...] outpace ARM and RISC-V and compete with even high-end x86_64 offerings, the presence of Tabor and X5000 et al simply gives the resolutely underinformed yet another stick to beat Power desktops with. These Amigas suck compared to PCs, they reason, so OpenPOWER must suck too. At the very least modern Amiga systems need to beat these decade-plus-old Power Macs to be even vaguely taken seriously. If they must go embedded then at least an e6500-series processor would do better than anything that they're running, and [...] going with a minimally-redesigned reference design board for a POWER8 or POWER9 in big-endian mode could still free up development resources for such a task that would otherwise be sunk into yet another quixotic product. As it is, these Amiga systems don't do the Amiga community any favours, and from this outsider's view their performance even seems to be going backwards. [...] weaksauce systems like this being sold as desktop machines continues to tar the architecture as underpowered and does nothing to expand the market beyond the shrinking circle of faithfuls. When there exist today at this very moment Power ISA workstations that can be every bit as utilitarian and functional as Intel workstations, the last thing any of our two communities need is yet another Amiga that people don't want."
    https://www.talospace.com/2020/01/another-amiga-you-dont-want.html

    My 2 cents as to notions I disagree with:
    1. The Tabor board design change to replace some obsolete components by more recent ones couldn't have involved a change of the SoC as this would have required a new from-scratch design.
    2. There was no better choice than the e5500-based QorIQ P5 series in 2012/2013 when the X5000/Cyrus was conceived. There was neither e6500 nor OpenPOWER back then.
  • »13.01.20 - 13:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 461 from 2008/8/10
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Whereas Tabor itself will have its own discussions, currently it is obviously the launch and terms that have met with some confusion:

    and the posts following

    I expect there will be clarification this week at Amiga Ireland, as Trevor will be present.

    #6
  • »14.01.20 - 13:18
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > what -was- released with enhancer V1.4:
    > A1222 ethernet device v1.2 (added) - Rene

    Did I understand Trevor correctly at 28:08 into the current video interview that this driver might not be included with the Tabor/A1222 release?
  • »18.01.20 - 22:38
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 461 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Livestream interview with Trevor Dickinson from A-EON

    At 52:15, does Trevor say that Mark Olsen is the author of a sound driver for A-Eon? Which one would that be? Tabor?


    Quote:

    he's done a sound driver for us


    No idea.

    #6
  • »19.01.20 - 01:21
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 271 from 2015/6/30
    These same issue with being able to supply complete X5000 systems with new graphics cards
    has reached the sound cards as well.
    So likewise with Polaris support for graphics cards,
    drivers for newer model sound cards are required.


    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Livestream interview with Trevor Dickinson from A-EON

    At 52:15, does Trevor say that Mark Olsen is the author of a sound driver for A-Eon? Which one would that be? Tabor?




    [ Edited by Spectre660 19.01.2020 - 06:52 ]
  • »19.01.20 - 10:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> does Trevor say that Mark Olsen is the author of a sound driver
    >> for A-Eon? Which one would that be? Tabor?

    > These same issue with being able to supply complete X5000 systems
    > with new graphics cards has reached the sound cards as well.
    > So [...], drivers for newer model sound cards are required.

    Would be interesting to know which audio controller/codec this driver is for, and if MorphOS will get this driver as well.
  • »19.01.20 - 14:29
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 136 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > what -was- released with enhancer V1.4:
    > A1222 ethernet device v1.2 (added) - Rene

    Did I understand Trevor correctly at 28:08 into the current video interview that this driver might not be included with the Tabor/A1222 release?




    A1222eth.device version 1.2 is already included in Enhancer.
  • »19.01.20 - 17:52
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> what -was- released with enhancer V1.4:
    >>> A1222 ethernet device v1.2 (added) - Rene

    >> Did I understand Trevor correctly at 28:08 into the current video interview
    >> that this driver might not be included with the Tabor/A1222 release?

    > A1222eth.device version 1.2 is already included in Enhancer.

    Yes, that's what I quoted and replied to, and hence my question.
  • »19.01.20 - 21:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 271 from 2015/6/30
    Hyperion's Contract for porting Amiga OS 4.x to the A1222 includes an Ethernet Driver for the onboard Ethernet.

    Source


    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> what -was- released with enhancer V1.4:
    >>> A1222 ethernet device v1.2 (added) - Rene

    >> Did I understand Trevor correctly at 28:08 into the current video interview
    >> that this driver might not be included with the Tabor/A1222 release?

    > A1222eth.device version 1.2 is already included in Enhancer.

    Yes, that's what I quoted and replied to, and hence my question.




    [ Edited by Spectre660 19.01.2020 - 19:00 ]
  • »19.01.20 - 22:57
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 271 from 2015/6/30
    A1222 AmigaOS 4.x timeline :

    AmigOS4.1 first booted on the A1222 in November 2016 .

    Video


    A-Eon version of the A1222 onboard ethernet driver completed in March 2018 .


    [ Edited by Spectre660 20.01.2020 - 07:45 ]
  • »20.01.20 - 11:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hyperion's Contract for porting Amiga OS 4.x to the A1222
    > includes an Ethernet Driver for the onboard Ethernet.

    So you say that Trevor is referring to Jamie Krueger's driver (Hyperion), not to René W. Olsen's driver (A-Eon), in this interview? This doesn't seem plausible as he's mentioning A-Eon's "video driver" and "sound driver" in the very same sentence. And also, I wonder why he even should refer to Hyperion's driver when A-Eon has commissioned and already released its own driver.
  • »20.01.20 - 12:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 271 from 2015/6/30
    Jamie Kruger's driver should be on the A1222 ISO as part of the porting contract.
    A-Eon's would then have the option to exclude their R. W. Olsen version from Enhancer 2.0 going forward.


    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Hyperion's Contract for porting Amiga OS 4.x to the A1222
    > includes an Ethernet Driver for the onboard Ethernet.

    So you say that Trevor is referring to Jamie Krueger's driver (Hyperion), not to René W. Olsen's driver (A-Eon), in this interview? This doesn't seem plausible as he's mentioning A-Eon's "video driver" and "sound driver" in the very same sentence. And also, I wonder why he even should refer to Hyperion's driver when A-Eon has commissioned and already released its own driver.




    [ Edited by Spectre660 20.01.2020 - 08:24 ]
  • »20.01.20 - 12:22
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