Vampire sales pass the 4,000 mark!!!
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Aren't there exceptions for small, low volume, and one could even say "experimental" products, from these oppressive regulations? 4,000 Vampire boards is pushing the envelope of only being a small production hobbyist product, so I can see how they might be painting themselves into a corner if they get too popular and sell too many boards, but perhaps there are no exceptions for such products in the EU and UK, and all boards must meet every electronic product regulation and registration?
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  • »07.07.17 - 04:34
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    I don't actually think so.
    Buying a board from Kipper2k, from Canada, I guess I can just pay for for it.
    He sends it, I pay customs and all is well. Nobody cares for any further regulations.
    However, it looks different if the board is sold through a EU re-seller.

    Manfred
  • »07.07.17 - 06:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2050 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    I don't actually think so.
    Buying a board from Kipper2k, from Canada, I guess I can just pay for for it.
    He sends it, I pay customs and all is well. Nobody cares for any further regulations.
    However, it looks different if the board is sold through a EU re-seller.

    Manfred


    If there is no valid CE and WEEE attached customs can keep the product. Usually it should just pass the customs, but generally this is possible and does actualy happen.
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  • »07.07.17 - 07:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2050 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Aren't there exceptions for small, low volume, and one could even say "experimental" products, from these oppressive regulations? 4,000 Vampire boards is pushing the envelope of only being a small production hobbyist product, so I can see how they might be painting themselves into a corner if they get too popular and sell too many boards, but perhaps there are no exceptions for such products in the EU and UK, and all boards must meet every electronic product regulation and registration?


    There is no exception for low volume or hobby in EU. If you sell a single item you need CE, WEEE and have to do all the tax things. It's this what hinders innovations of new entrepreneurs w/o big funding in the EU. Getting on the maket is kind of stiching into wasp nest. Aboulutely unpleasant!
    Getting a WEEE certificate in Germany is about 700 EUR initially now (a few years ago it was erather about 2k-3k EUR) and then 250 EUR each year + actual fees (these are rather low, I pay 12 EUR annual fee) for the delivered goods. Ans you also need to do a monthly reporting on your deliveries. Real fun!
    Oh and while you're at it. there are also regulations and requirements for devices containing batteries and packing material. Requires more certificates, although these are a bit easier and chaeper than WEEE.
    Funny thing of the EU: Except CE it's not even one certificate for one country, but only for a region. Germany is one region (yipeeh!), but for example the way smaller Belgium consists of two regios. You need all this ape-dance for each region.
    No wonder a company today needs more lawyers and managers than engeneers and workers. Running a very small business that actually produces and sells electronic items is really a PITA.
    That said, the idea of WEEE and the likes is good, the way it was implented is just argghh!

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 07.07.2017 - 09:55 ]
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  • »07.07.17 - 07:47
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    I don't actually think so.
    Buying a board from Kipper2k, from Canada, I guess I can just pay for for it.
    He sends it, I pay customs and all is well. Nobody cares for any further regulations.
    However, it looks different if the board is sold through a EU re-seller.

    Manfred


    If there is no valid CE and WEEE attached customs can keep the product. Usually it should just pass the customs, but generally this is possible and does actualy happen.


    They are selling it through Amedia Computer in France.
    So I guess they have to have those certificates, I mean _really_ have to have those.


    Manfred
  • »07.07.17 - 08:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2050 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    I don't actually think so.
    Buying a board from Kipper2k, from Canada, I guess I can just pay for for it.
    He sends it, I pay customs and all is well. Nobody cares for any further regulations.
    However, it looks different if the board is sold through a EU re-seller.

    Manfred


    If there is no valid CE and WEEE attached customs can keep the product. Usually it should just pass the customs, but generally this is possible and does actualy happen.


    They are selling it through Amedia Computer in France.
    So I guess they have to have those certificates, I mean _really_ have to have those.


    Manfred


    My fault: The Vampires are add on cards - no device, hence WEEE registration can get circumvented. Needs CE and RoHS only.

    Once a standalone Vampire will get offered my above written WEEE issues will apply though.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 07.07.2017 - 10:51 ]
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »07.07.17 - 08:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:

    these oppressive regulations?


    First, as a sidenote, I think it's amusing to see the difference between the European views and some American views. I.e. in most of Europe we have the idea that ultimately it's a societys responsibility to protect the weak, cure the sick, etc. Or like the topic here, consumer protection (for legal guarantee is about consumer protection). While some people across the waters look at these things as "oppressive regulations". :-) In Europe we have the word "opression" in our languages too. But with our European history in regard (Nazism/Fascism/Communism), I suppose we use it for a whole different spectrum of things than consumer/citizen protection.;-)

    The legislation applies when a company is selling to a consumer (where it's unconditionally mandatory).

    Legal guarantee for defective products has at least a 2 year prescription period. Many counties practice an even longer period, like Sweden who has 3 years. It's 6 years in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and 5 years in Scotland. But it can never be shorter than two years after delivery. It is the final seller in the supply chain of the goods that is obligated to fulfill the gurantee towards the consumer, so it is within the sellers interest to market good-quality products.

    The consumer must notify the seller of the defectiveness "within reasonable time" after discovery. How long time this is, depends on several things, like the type of product, the type of defectiveness, etc. The time span can never be less than two months. Generally speaking the consumer should not wait, but act as soon as the defectiveness gets discovered.

    <6 months after delivery it's the seller that must prove that the item was not defective in case of a conflict ("reverse burden of proof").

    >6 months, the consumer must prove that it was defective (so-called "original fault").

    >2 years (or more in some countries), the legal guarantee period has ended.


    Then there is also something called Commercial Warranty, which might look very similar concept, but is really different from a legal point of view. Issuing commercial warranties is a completely voluntary move from the (often) producer, and is done for marketing reasons and to increase the value of the product in relation to its competitors. Toyota offering a generous 12 year warranty against rusting, may actually win them some purchase decisions over a car manufacturer offering only 3 or 5 years warranty. It also communicates to to customers that the manufacturer really believe in the quality of their products. The Commercial Warranty can never stipulate conditions that are lower or worse than whats granted by the Legal Guarantee in respective countries. A six month manufacturer warranty on a hairdryer, will still mean at least two year (or indeed more) legal guarantee in the EU.

    http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm (Click "Guarantees for faulty goods")

    Choose country at the bottom of the page to explore the additional consumer protection that applies in various countries on top of the basic mandatory 2 year legal guarantee.

    To sum up, the key to the consumer protection laws, is wheter the seller is a company and the buyer is a consumer. And as others has pointed out, Amiga kit is a company. So if you are about to choose between buying from some hobby-dudes in a basement with a soldering iron, or from a EU company like Amiga kit, chose the option that brings you the best protection!

    An other interesting issue I am curious about, is whether this product has a CE-marking?

    :-?
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  • »07.07.17 - 08:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:...As much as I like the EU the bureaucracy is hillarious!


    Sounds like it.
    So there is a lack of cross border certification impeding goods sales?
    And selling this hobbyist produced board is likely to produce issues throughout much of Europe?

    We have too many layers of bureaucracy, world wide. I can sell a push for a standard one year warranty on electronic goods, but this regional issue is a bit much, and the EU concept of dumping warranty responsibilities on the resellers...its anti business.




    Generally speaking in European countries, the rights of people are more important than the rights of corporations. We don't have stupid laws that state "Corporations are people" either.
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  • »07.07.17 - 12:35
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Though if one was to purchase it from Amigakit in Wales you would be covered by the EU regulations at least until the UK leaves the EU within the next couple of years.

    The UK warranty regulations are actually more generous than the base EU directive so unless those will be changed your purchases should be covered even after the UK stops being a member state.



    But only for UK residents I think. Once we leave anyone who resides in a foreign country will not be covered by our consumer protection laws as I understand it.
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  • »07.07.17 - 12:36
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    asrael22 schrieb:
    I don't actually think so.
    Buying a board from Kipper2k, from Canada, I guess I can just pay for for it.
    He sends it, I pay customs and all is well. Nobody cares for any further regulations.
    However, it looks different if the board is sold through a EU re-seller.

    Manfred


    If there is no valid CE and WEEE attached customs can keep the product. Usually it should just pass the customs, but generally this is possible and does actualy happen.


    They are selling it through Amedia Computer in France.
    So I guess they have to have those certificates, I mean _really_ have to have those.


    Manfred


    My fault: The Vampires are add on cards - no device, hence WEEE registration can get circumvented. Needs CE and RoHS only.

    Once a standalone Vampire will get offered my above written WEEE issues will apply though.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 07.07.2017 - 10:51 ]


    The cards seem to be CE certified:
    http://www.generationamiga.com/2017/03/04/new-batch-vampire-500600-cards-with-ce-certification/


    Manfred

    [ Edited by asrael22 07.07.2017 - 20:18 ]
  • »07.07.17 - 18:17
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Nadir
    Posts: 157 from 2003/3/17
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    I actually think it is fairly on-topic.


    Well, only to the extent that vampire imports are on-topic on a morphos forum ;-)
  • »07.07.17 - 22:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Nadir wrote:
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    I actually think it is fairly on-topic.


    Well, only to the extent that vampire imports are on-topic on a morphos forum ;-)




    All kinds of topics are discussed in the "General" forum here, why not an Amiga accelerator? Since MorphOS was inspired by AmigaOS3.1, and is compatible enough to run many Amiga programs and some games, I don't think discussing the Vampire boards here is disruptive, or bad for the forum.
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  • »07.07.17 - 23:17
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
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    soviet
    Posts: 102 from 2008/7/2
    From: Uruguay
    Who cares if it have CE or whatever .....
  • »10.07.17 - 02:24
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    soviet wrote:
    Who cares if it have CE or whatever .....


    Well. I do.
    Because it's a sign that the product complies with certain regulations where a few are:
    "Low Voltage Directive", "EMC Directive". This doesn't apply here but in CE toys must comply with the "Toy Safety Directive".


    Manfred
  • »10.07.17 - 07:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    asrael22 wrote:
    Quote:

    soviet wrote:
    Who cares if it have CE or whatever .....


    Well. I do. It's a quality indication.
    Because it's a sign that the product complies with certain regulations where a few are:
    "Low Voltage Directive", "EMC Directive". This doesn't apply here but in CE toys must comply with the "Toy Safety Directive".



    Manfred
  • »10.07.17 - 07:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    soviet wrote:
    Who cares if it have CE or whatever .....


    Customs & Excise do. Ergo, you will when they stop your order entering the country and you lose your money.

    [ Edited by Intuition 10.07.2017 - 11:12 ]
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  • »10.07.17 - 08:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    At what point does a bedroom coder and workshop/garage electronics hacker who sells products to "consumers", become liable for these warranty laws? From what I have read so far, the Apollo group and the one or two individuals who are assembling or packaging pre-assembled boards, probably aren't subject to the EU warranty laws, but if any company (like AmigaKit) becomes a distributor of the Vampire products, AmigaKit then becomes liable for providing the warranty, and possibly, anyone involved with manufacturing the Vampire products sold by AmigaKit, also becomes subject to the warranty laws for manufacturers.

    I wonder if the guys building and selling the Vampire accelerators have thought about all these consequences caused by their rapid growth, and decision to allow sales through AmigaKit, or any other EU, or UK company?
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  • »10.07.17 - 22:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    First, as a sidenote, I think it's amusing to see the difference between the European views and some American views. I.e. in most of Europe we have the idea that ultimately it's a societys responsibility to protect the weak, cure the sick, etc. Or like the topic here, consumer protection (for legal guarantee is about consumer protection). While some people across the waters look at these things as "oppressive regulations".
    :-?


    You are forgetting that the few guys coding the Apollo core, and the 2 or 3 others who were responsible for designing and soldering the boards, are NOT a "company selling to consumers", they are more like "hobbyists, selling to other hobbyists". The consumer protection laws being discussed in this thread can be very oppressive for hobbyists, and one or two man groups who are inventing new hardware. I don't think this point of view is any different from an American, than it is from at least some Europeans.
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  • »10.07.17 - 23:20
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Well, actually, in the US we don't really face the issues the Europeans do.
    I fact, I've shipped hobbyist projects not just around the US, but also back and forth to Canada without a problem.

    Regulatory agencies in the US don't tend to bother with low volume hobbyist projects.

    Vampire has just scaled up to the point where its really an issue.
    It would be here, I'm sure it is there, and since Aeon and AmigaKit are incorporated...
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.07.17 - 00:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Well, actually, in the US we don't really face the issues the Europeans do.
    I fact, I've shipped hobbyist projects not just around the US, but also back and forth to Canada without a problem.

    Regulatory agencies in the US don't tend to bother with low volume hobbyist projects.

    Vampire has just scaled up to the point where its really an issue.
    It would be here, I'm sure it is there, and since Aeon and AmigaKit are incorporated...


    Is it an issue yet? They are still selling mostly to individuals, 1 or 2 boards at a time, so they might slip by undetected no matter where they were located, until now, when they begin to sell in larger quantities to re-sellers, like AmigaKit.

    I wonder if any of this has been an issue for the Vampire boards yet? I think it was reported that AmigaKit only received a handful of boards (less than 10), until all other pre-orders were filled. If the Vampire guys have only been shipping out 1 board here, and 1 or 2 boards there, all to separate private addresses, they could easily be over looked, and perceived as nothing more than one hobbyist selling to another hobbyist.

    AmigaKit sales must of course meet all regulations, as they are a company (and a corporation, as you pointed out), but it might be another few weeks before the Vampire guys can ship boards to AmigaKit in larger quantities. Even then, will AmigaKit be buying them in lots of 10, 20, or 30, boards at a time? I doubt it will be more than that, unless they have a huge back log of buyers requesting a Vampire board from AmigaKit.

    Given the fact that there are some users in the EU 68k Amiga community, who are "anti-AmigaKit/A-Eon", for reasons I don't really understand, it is doubtful that AmigaKit will be the main distributor for the Vampire boards. Many buyers will choose a different distributor/re-seller, to get their Vampire board from.

    Certainly, the Vampire's popularity and sales numbers will probably cause the manufacturer to adhere to some or all of these warranty and certification issues being discussed in this thread, in the very near future.
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  • »11.07.17 - 03:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12026 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Aeon and AmigaKit are incorporated...

    As was written in comment #80, it's Amedia selling the Vampire in the EU, not A-Eon.
  • »11.07.17 - 11:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12026 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Certainly, the Vampire's popularity and sales numbers will probably cause
    > the manufacturer to adhere to some or all of these warranty and certification
    > issues being discussed in this thread, in the very near future.

    Regarding certifications, see comment #85. Regarding obligatory warranty in the EU, I think it has been established in this thread that this has to be provided by the seller, not by the manufacturer.
  • »11.07.17 - 12:12
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >Regarding certifications, see comment #85. Regarding obligatory warranty in the EU, I think it has been established in this thread that this has to be provided by the seller, not by the manufacturer.

    At first this didn't make sense to me, then I considered my statement about AmigaKit and the fact that I consider the seller to be responsible for support. Once I'd thought about it, the European stance made a lot more sense.

    BTW Andreas, thanks for the clarification about Amedia.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.07.17 - 13:22
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Aeon and AmigaKit are incorporated...

    As was written in comment #80, it's Amedia selling the Vampire in the EU, not A-Eon.


    We haven't left the EU yet.

    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72399
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  • »11.07.17 - 13:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12026 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > We haven't left the EU yet.

    Yes, I know about AmigaKit also selling Vampires. Jim correctly mentioned AmigaKit as Vampire (re-)sellers. It just seemed to me he mixed up A-Eon and Amedia.
  • »11.07.17 - 14:03
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