Quote:

Since Atari ST and older Mac also were based on m68k the market may be larger than just Amiga.


Manfred

>> In tests performed by ALB42, the 50 MHz 68882 is between
>> 1.8 and 17 times as fast as Vampire SoftFPU:
>> https://blog.alb42.de/2017/06/29/an-replacement/

> Worthwhile correction, 1.7-17 times, eh?

3.81 / 2.14 = 1.78 ≈ 1.8

> those relabeled '133FE' cpus [...] didn't have an fpu did they, or was it just the
> MMU missing?

Those "FE133" CPUs have neither.

> there is almost zero interest in a Vampire accelerator outside the existing active
> Amiga community, or former Amiga users who still have an Amiga or two stored
> in their attic, basement, or the back of their closet.

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=30628
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/257989-apollo-68080-new-68k-core-running-on-atari-stf/
http://forum.atari-home.de/index.php?topic=13179.0
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/25039-new-99-dollar-500mhz-68020/
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/28278-se-and-se30-accelerators-discussion-of-new-hardware-development/

>3.81 / 2.14 = 1.78 ≈ 1.8

Got it, not that bad, but still definitely not faster (similar to a 25 MHz 68882)

>Those "FE133" CPUs have neither.

Didn't think so.
I'm beginning to wonder about this theme (the fpu issues) in relation to Amiga projects.

As to your following comments on the contention that no one else is interested in the Apollo core or Vampire, I'd like to install one in a Peripheral Technology PT68K2 motherboard. It would provide a nice speed upgrade and access to memory above 1 mb.
I never had a chance to work with any of the early Peripheral Tech boards (just the K4 and K5 models), but the K2s are still available.



[ Edited by Jim 30.06.2017 - 19:00 ]

there are a few thousand potential users you can gain by porting MorphOS to the 68080. It is just an idea. There will also be standalone Vampire mainboards which could be sold as complete Amiga branded machines continuing the original line in an amiga style case.
oh my... i think i just dropped the bomb now by mentioning Amiga brand :D

> similar to a 25 MHz 68882

...in one single test (Mandelbrot single precision). Worst result was that of a 3 MHz 68882 (SciMark2 LU). On average, it's similar to 10 MHz 68882.

Quote:

Hmm, 10 MHz, not all all good.
Still, we first systems we sold didn't even have the option of a floating point co-processor.
We did move to the '020 until our second model was introduced (and the board I'm looking for predates both systems).

So 10 MHz would be better than nothing.
At least it will allow fpu dependent code to run.

Do you think Gunnar actually has a (fully) functional fpu?
I get the impression it isn't the easiest component to design.

Quote:

It's a soft fpu package for Free Pascal that emulates floating point using your CPU, rather than a vampire specific softfpu.

Quote:

As usual, I should have used different words, like "no one outside the retro 68k computer world", instead of just the "Amiga community". Same goes for the FPGA Arcade Replay board, but I haven't heard much about that project lately. I'll have to go check if Mike J is getting close to producing his 68060 w/USB, & Ethernet add-on board. I've got his original personal Replay board, the one before the design fix to separate a couple of the ports on it, to prevent difficulty with certain plug designs, and have been patiently waiting to buy his 68060 add-on board if/when it becomes available.

When the Vampire standalone board becomes available, it will probably severely impact sales of the Replay board. Too bad the two men behind these products aren't working together, instead of competing against each other. I know competition is good for most markets, but I'm not convinced competition is that useful in such a tiny niche community, when collaboration would better serve us by speeding up development, and also injecting the best ideas of both parties into one product, or line of products.

> It's a soft fpu package for Free Pascal that emulates floating point
> using your CPU, rather than a vampire specific softfpu.

The SoftFPU implementation that is planned to be integrated into the Vampire Kickstart has been written in m68k ASM. Nothing to do with FreePascal.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931&x=1

Quote:

Natami was announced in 2008 as something faster than ppc, something faster than uae on fast pc.
After many years of lies and false promises vampire is still two times slower than slowest ppc cards for amiga.
Slower than commodore protypes.
And also slower than uae from year 2000 on pc from year 2000.
One hundred times slower than what was announced in 2008.
It's a really big disappointment.
Natami/apollo/vampire is bigest scam in entire amiga history.

Quote:

Yep, we are talking as crossed purposes, the soft fpu being benchmarked in the alb42 link referred to below was the Free Pascal soft fpu.

> Natami was announced in 2008 as something faster than ppc,
> something faster than uae on fast pc.

Do you have a link to such announcement from 2008?

> vampire is still two times slower than slowest ppc cards for amiga.

Slower than 80 MHz 603e or 75 MHz 604e? Can you provide integer benchmark results?

> slower than uae from year 2000 on pc from year 2000.

...but faster than UAE from year 1999 on PC from year 2001 ;-)

> One hundred times slower than what was announced in 2008.

Can you provide this calculation, please?

> Natami/apollo/vampire is bigest scam in entire amiga history.

With this questionable statement, you are downplaying the real scams.

> the soft fpu being benchmarked in the alb42 link referred to below
> was the Free Pascal soft fpu.

I understand it was the new ASM SoftFPU. The FreePascal SoftFPU was benchmarked a month earlier:

https://blog.alb42.de/2017/05/28/to-fpu-or-not-to-fpu/

Quote:

I see. The link I was referring to was the one you posted on 30/06.

https://blog.alb42.de/2017/06/29/an-replacement/

> The link I was referring to was the one you posted on 30/06.
> https://blog.alb42.de/2017/06/29/an-replacement/

I know. And that's where I think the new ASM SoftFPU was benchmarked, not the FreePascal SoftFPU.

Quote:

Unless you can provide proof for your statements above, I will just assume you are the liar, and someone who has an unhealthy obsession of trying to hurt Gunnar for some unknown reason, along with your obsession for trying to convince the Amiga and MorphOS communities to switch to Unix based hosted NG solution.

"Slower that commodore protypes" (I guess you mean prototypes) which never existed, and you cannot provide any proof of them or the benchmarks they could run.

"Slower than uae from year 2000 on a pc from year 2000" means nothing, unless you provide which pc, and benchmarks to prove your statement.

"One hundred times slower than what was announced in 2008" Really?!? Show me what was announced in 2008, and how it could be 100 times faster than what the Vampire can do today.

"It's a really big disappointment" Only for you, everyone else who actually owns one loves it and can't wait for the future core improvements, as well as the hundreds, or more likely thousands, who are waiting to purchase a Vampire stand alone, or A1200 model, plus hundreds more that will put Vampire boards into 68k Atari and Mac computers.

"Natami/apollo/vampire is bigest scam in entire amiga history" If it were a scam, then all those 4,000+ buyers would have put the guys selling Vampire boards out of business by demanding refunds, and there would be 4,000 angry users flooding the forum sites with the same crap you are spouting constantly.

Do you see a single member on any of the forums you spread your hate and exaggerations who agrees with you? I have not seen anyone who has agreed with any of your statements, or ideas. What a sad and lonely life you must live.

There are now over 4,000 users who disagree with your point of view, and the number is still growing fast. If/When Apollo Team decides to produce a Vampire model for the A1200, their sales numbers will probably double or triple what they have done so far.

@A. Wolf,
From what I have heard from one of the Vampire600 v2 owners, Gunnar and the Apollo Team might not even be trying to implement a full FPU soft core, and instead, they might be only adding the most commonly used FPU instructions, to allow the few games that were written to take advantage of an FPU on an Amiga, to run, where they would not run at all before.

I'm getting all this info 2nd hand, and don't yet have a Vampire for myself, but I haven't found any dissatisfied Vampire owners yet. I don't think full ray tracing is the aim for the Apollo Team and most Vampire owners, and they may run out of room in the FPGA, if they try to implement all of the FPU instructions, so perhaps they are trading off some things, to make room for others that are seen as a higher priority.

I think that the A1200 and stand alone Vampire models will have a larger and faster FPGA, which will make them more expensive, but allow more new features and speed.

The current distribution model they have gives them (whoever 'them' is, I can't tell really) some advantage over companies like Individual Computers and others.
Because AFAIK I don't really have any warranty or the extended warranty of two years for my Vampire, that re-sellers have to give in Germany over products like this.
I don't think they have much work todo, yet, to repair defective boards or send replacements and the like.
Once they do that the development will slow down a bit I think.

And for the standalone or A1200, when the stuff gets more expensive, I think I won't buy if there is no warranty.


Manfred

Quote:

You get a two years warranty in Germany?
Nice, standard in the US is 90 days.

Quote:

Usually (or by EU law) you have a 1 year warranty by the manufacturer.
And a 2 years warranty by the (re-)seller. Where within the first year the re-seller will probably go to the manufacturer.
After that he has to deal with it himself.

Now, If I receive a package from Canada from kipper2k with my A600 Vampire for 350€ without any warranty, they clearly make thereselves an easier life than any other hardware company that sells stuff for the Amiga through the usual re-seller channels.
There wasn't even an invoice which I could put into the tax-return.


Manfred

[ Edited by asrael22 03.07.2017 - 21:38 ]

Quote:

Really? So you buy a brand new MacBook Pro for $3000 and you have 90 days of warranty?


Manfred

Its so funny to see how many people is pissed off by the success that the vampire is having.

Quote:

Who is pissed off?

I think one of the good points or rather 'side effects' of the Vampire success is it's impact on the 2nd hand market of Amiga 680x0 accelerator cards! Before that time if you wanted a fast classic machine you needed to pay several 100 € of not more than 1000 € to get 68060 cards in a good working condition. Then you had to get suitable RAMs, maybe an SCSI-card for faster HDD-speeds and so on. A rather painful process... And in the end there always was a chance your config does not work 'cause of soldering issues or other things.

The advantage of the Vampire is, it provides a complete package CPU/RAM/fast MicroSD for *A LOT* less money. It even seems to get working chipset graphics output via HDMI. A powerful Classic-Amiga now is in the reach of a lot more people than it was before. I think that's why the user base is growing.

Having said that I do not plan to buy a Vampire. I got two A1200 with ACAs' and the 68030 is more than fast enough for almost all classic gaming needs. And I got my PowerBook G4 and PowerMac G5 for all other stuff, and they are way faster than the Vampires' will get in the years to come. I even can comfortably run Linux on these machines. So at least for me there is no need for an additional Amiga 'in between'. I might be interested in a standalone Vampire though if some day one of my A1200 fails. ;)

Neither do I think the Vampire-A1200 nor the standalone will boost the sales much. What's the advantage of a Vampire-A1200 if you can have AGA graphics via HDMI on a Vampire-A500 Amiga?

But it seems the active Amiga community as a whole is growing a little bit 'cause of the Vampire and I like that. Also AROS-680x0 seems to get a boost which I like too.

Quote:

Decent manufacturers still offer a 1 year warranty (zip from resellers unless you pay for it).
For instance, a laptop from HP comes with a one year warranty.

Cheaper stuff, say a Sony Blu Ray player, yep, 90 days.

Accessories like Vampire, varies with the manufacturer.