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The title says they released OS3.1, that is slander?

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I have not heard that the Cloanto 3.X ROM has issues? That's pretty important

[ Edited by redrumloa 14.10.2016 - 11:52 ]

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Emphasizing HYPE on subject once and six times more below, maybe should have left it on subject only to calm down the nerves of our more sensitive members

I'd be far more interested in a 68k back port of OS4.1 to be honest.

Or a 68k MorphOS. :)

>>> In other words, the same ported and cleaned 3.1 sources that allegedly
>>> was once used as a foundation for OS4

>>...and AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 before that.

> HYPE don't have access to 3.5 and 3.9 sources.

Nobody said they had. What I say is that they have access to the AmigaOS 3.1 ANSI C sources AmigaOS 3.5 and thus 3.9 are based on, and also this release of 3.1 is likely based on.

> These days [...] 3.9 is considered an illegal pirate release.

By whom? It's still being sold:

http://www.vesalia.de/e_os39.htm
http://www.amistore.de/Software/Betriebssysteme/Amiga-OS-3-9-Amiga-CD-ROM::74864.html
http://www.ggsdata.se/index.php?page=php/showproduct.php?art_id=12302
http://www.gentle-eye.fi/softa.html

3.5 and 3.9 are even mentioned as regular releases on Hyperion's official AmigaOS site and Wiki:

http://www.amigaos.net/content/10/history-amigaos
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Versions

>> This topic might be (and already is looking at the title) another occasion
>> to slander hyperion

> The title says they released OS3.1, that is slander? :-o

Everybody sees what you did there ;-)

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Wow! There are some gaps in your bookmarks!

It is pretty common knowledge that H&P never paid royalties from OS3.9 to Amiga Inc and McBill ultimately declared it illegal I don't collect bookmarks like you do, so a quick Google search only brings up people discussing this issue.

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To make things even more unsavory, OS3.9 includes an entirely pirate version of Genesis TCP/IP Stack.

That's probably another one of the reasons both OS3.5 and OS3.9 are not considered canon.

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This x1,000!

I find myself pretty much only playing disk based games on my Turbo Chameleon. It is one of the reasons I am not overly excited about the upcoming Commodore A12000 Reloaded. I've been completely and utterly spoiled by MorphOS. Anytime I try to go back and revisit OS3.whatever, I find it brutally archaic.

An updated 68K MorphOS for Amiga hardware would be very, very welcome by me.

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What to who now? You think people take issue with "HYPErion"? That's just their name with a few extra letters in capital

I didn't invent it, it's usage goes back to ANN.LU days. It is pretty universally used these days, with even many OS4 users adopting it. It seems many OS4 users are losing faith in HYPErion and are looking at A-Eonkit as the only possible future for their preferred OS. They are probably correct.

I didn't mean that Cloantos updated ROMs and Workbench are bug ridden, but it has been reported that they have issues. Hence my concern.

I'm not trying to slander Hyperion here. It is just interesting to know all the facts thats all.

>>> These days [...] 3.9 is considered an illegal pirate release.

>> By whom?

> It is pretty common knowledge that H&P never paid royalties from OS3.9 to
> Amiga Inc and McBill ultimately declared it illegal :-o

I don't remember AmigaOS 3.9 ever been declared illegal by Bill McEwen. What I remember is H&P's "AmigaOS XL" package (containing Amithlon, "AmigaXL for QNX" and AmigaOS 3.9) being declared illegal by Amiga Inc. for non-paid OS3.9 royalties.

> To make things even more unsavory, OS3.9 includes an entirely
> pirate version of Genesis TCP/IP Stack.

The unlicensed software component in 3.9 was AmiTCP, not its GUI Genesis. Amiga Inc. or Bill McEwen didn't ever seem to object to that.

> That's probably another one of the reasons both OS3.5 and OS3.9 are
> not considered canon.

OS3.5 didn't contain AmiTCP but a fully licensed demo version of Miami.
Anyway, the fact that Hyperion of all parties (basing AmigaOS 4.x on AmigaOS 3.1) mentions AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 as regular AmigaOS releases on their websites speaks volumes. And several dealers still offering the allegedly "illegal pirate" AmigaOS 3.9 for sale only adds to that fact.

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Hmm, I'm pretty sure the AmigaOS XL package was just insult to injury and the alleged lack of royalties date back further to OS3.9 itself. The memory is getting a little fuzzy here, but didn't even Bill Buck buy a stack of OS3.9 CDs that he was originally going to distribute with Pegasos I / MorphOS 1.3 to fill in the gaps? Didn't he ultimately not do this because of OS3.9's legal status?

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Splitting hairs? :-p

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I didn't imply such, it was mentioned as a side note (make things even more unsavory).
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And yet they claim this is the first updates in over twenty years in their PR. 20 years puts us 3 years before OS3.5. I know you will try splitting hairs stating first OS3.1 update in 20 years, but don't go there. You know better
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And? They have old stock and they haven't received a C&D, i can't blame them there. Now if H&P were still producing 3.9 and dealers were still buying new stock and reselling it today, it would be seen bad.

[ Edited by redrumloa 14.10.2016 - 15:46 ]

>> Everybody sees what you did there ;-)

> That's just their name with a few extra letters in capital :-)

Exactly what I meant :-) See also comment #28.

> I didn't invent it, it's usage goes back to ANN.LU days.

I know.

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Gotcha

@TMHG

The agreement between Hyperion and Individual only currently covers the Kickstart and not the rest of the OS. It's also unclear if that agreement would cover A1200 reloaded since the wording in the press release says "processor accelerators for Amiga 500, Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000 and Amiga 2500."

https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/33/items/hyperion-and-individual-computers-sign-license-agreement.html

They need a different agreement for A1200R and that could come down to who offers the best terms and flexibility.

The only reason I mentioned it was because the agreement was made some number of years ago and neither Amiga Inc or Cloanto have taken issue with it and it pre-dates the deal for Cloanto to distribute 4.1FE Classic by almost 3 years.

> I'm pretty sure the AmigaOS XL package was just insult to injury and
> the alleged lack of royalties date back further to OS3.9 itself.

This may be true or not, but doesn't change the fact I'm not aware of AmigaOS 3.9 been declared illegal by McEwen. If it was, there must have been a (public?) declaration, right? And if it wasn't, AmigaOS 3.9 should be considered a legal non-pirate AmigaOS release (the Genesis/AmiTCP issue notwithstanding).

> didn't even Bill Buck buy a stack of OS3.9 CDs that he was originally
> going to distribute with Pegasos I / MorphOS 1.3 to fill in the gaps?

OS3.9 and 3.5, yes. These were MorphOS 1.4 times, and OS3.5/3.9 was to be bundled at buyers' request.

http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?show=1061267806&category=forum&number=78#comment

> Didn't he ultimately not do this because of OS3.9's legal status?

I don't remember any statement from him as to why he didn't. Maybe it wasn't needed any longer? If there was a legal problem with 3.9 he could simply have offered his stack of 3.5 CDs.

> they claim this is the first updates in over twenty years in their PR. 20 years
> puts us 3 years before OS3.5. I know you will try splitting hairs stating
> first OS3.1 update in 20 years, but don't go there. You know better ;-)

...or maybe it's just that Hyperion knows better than you, which is reflected in their exact choice of words.

> Now if H&P were still producing 3.9 and dealers were still buying new stock
> and reselling it today, it would be seen bad.

This would be flat-out illegal as H&P's licenses for producing and distributing AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 have long expired. But that doesn't mean AmigaOS 3.9 per se is an illegal pirate product. The AmigaOS 3.9 CDs produced during the time H&P had a valid license contain a legal non-pirate AmigaOS release (the Genesis/AmiTCP issue notwithstanding).

McBill for sure claimed alot of things and revoking H&P's licence over missing royalties was one of them.

Haage on the other side claimed that Amino hadn't payed them for work done on the original OS4.


The conflict never got any legal action, but was the basis for both OnScheduleAndRocking and the PartyOn flamewar.

> McBill for sure claimed alot of things and revoking H&P's licence over
> missing royalties was one of them.

Yes, this was the Amithlon conflict. Did McEwen also revoke H&P's license for standalone AmigaOS 3.9? And if so, would this render the AmigaOS 3.9 CDs produced before the license revocation illegal?

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I suppose license is for developing/publishing. I haven't seen anyone raise hell over already produced 3.9 CD's. If H&P would start publishing and releasing new batches, someone would perhaps object, and then these questions would become relevant. But since this is not the case, I suppose it's water under the bridges...

Cloanto's "Workbench 3.X" is basically their recreation of AmigaOS 3.9. Minus a few things, but some things added. And version numbers of certain OS components are higher than in 3.9. Because of the highly disputed situation regarding 3.9, to be sure, Cloanto has secured copyright/license from multiple sources in cases when in doubt, like directly from involved individual developers.

I have high confidence in Cloanto's tracking of copyright and securing IP. It's basically what they have been doing since the death of Commodore. I wouldn't be surprised if they have paperwork for literally every single file in the OS. Workbench 3.X could still be published and sold, even when those old 3.9 CD's are gone from dealers stock.

@rob

From a 3.1 point of view, Cloanto's Workbench wins.
From a post-3.1 point of view, Cloanto's Workbench also wins.
And from a "the real" (read: branded with official, registered Workbench trademark), Cloanto's Workbench wins again, and it's interesting to see how Hyperion markets the their product using that trademark.

His claim was that he had revoked the H&P licence over nonpayment and rhat AmigaOSXL containing OS3.9 was therefore illegal too.

Thet is offcourse the high possibility that he just made that up on the fly, but if true Amithlon was just what made it puplic.

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When in doubt, buy licenses from every dubious claim to IP you can?

Frankly, your repeated "Cloanto wins.." comments aren't really backed up by anything other than your opinion.
One thing is certain, only Hyperion has the only license, dubious or not, to develop new operating systems from OS 3.1.
Right now, Hyperion and Cloanto have a fairly amicable relationship, but honestly neither really has a legitimate claim to this IP as that died with the holders that went insolvent.
And Bill's claim to anything other than a trademark is laughable.

So, while I'm willing to a knowledge the recognized legal standing of the current IP holders, I don't really respect how they obtained that recognition.

And, as said before, if I need a copy of 3.1 that is less kludged up, then Hyperion's version makes more sense to me.

Actually there are not 3 different versions of OS3.1 now, there are FIVE!

Commodore Amiga - Amiga OS 3.1
Amiga technology (Escom) - Amiga OS 3.1
Amiga International (Escom) - Amiga OS 3.1
Cloanto - Workbench 3.1
HYPErion - Workbench 3.1

All 5 have subtle differences to each other, with the last 2 having not so subtle differences. Don't Village Tronic still have a license? Maybe they will throw their hat in the ring? LOL!!

> I have high confidence in Cloanto's tracking of copyright and securing IP.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11391&start=26 ;-)

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Yeah that is a complete s***ty move by Cloanto. I've always had nothing but utmost respect for them, but this looks bad. Since we never heard anything further I guess it never got worked out.

Is there no one in this market that stays completely within the lines other than the MorphOS Team?