These guys are no match for the logic and nearly perfect recall (plus great search and link capabilities) of AW!

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Point out where I "insulted" someone at A-Eonkit in this thread. You are imagining things. "Arrogance" is in the eye of the beholder.

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MorphOS will certainly break ties with it's Amiga legacy IMO, as it should. There are 3 NG solutions out there all heading in different directions. Ever since the very first OS4 release, the last NG solution out of the gate, they have been diverging. AROS and MorphOS had some similarities, but HYPErion decided to go in another direction entirely. Now that MorphOS has matured on the PPC, there is really nowhere else to go. PPC is a dead end. When MorphOS was conceived, legacy support was a good idea. Today it is huge boat anchor whose chain needs cut.

OS4 will seemingly continue on PPC until the last router grade (Haynie's term, not mine) cpu is made, clinging to what compatibility it can to OS3.X all along. MorphOS will change ISA (hopefully X86-64) throwing all compatibility and many legacy concepts out the window. When MorphOS-NG arrives it will likely have very little resemblance to MorphOS of today. I wouldn't be surprised to see the overlap of discussions between the NG solutions taper away to almost nothing rather quickly.

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MorphOS is not AmigaOS and never pretended to be. The MorphOS Team has no plan to try something as you suggest at all. You may find something like that from an AROS branch.

I hope this helps.

> OS4 will seemingly continue on PPC until the last router grade (Haynie's term, not mine)
> cpu is made

There's still IBM POWER after that ;-)

And regarding Haynie:

"P5020 or other P5 series chip [...] are decent enough to say you have modern application processing performance [...]."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33564&forum=25&start=280#610666

This was in 2011, though.

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Thanks, I don't specifically remember that. So Haynie thought the CPU that ended up being chosen for the X5000 was fine in 2011. I wonder what his thoughts would be on them 5 years later when the X5000 is released.

AW do you have any links for benchmarks of the P5 series chips compared to G5? I understand non are probably out yet for the X5000, but other sources?

[ Edited by redrumloa 04.11.2015 - 08:41 ]

> AW do you have any links for benchmarks of the P5 series chips compared to G5?

Unfortunately none apart from the artificial Dhrystone ones.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=743

> I understand non are probably out yet for the X5000, but other sources?

As there're MorphOS developers and betatesters with X5000 at hand, I would expect them to publish MorphOS-centric benchmark figures anytime soon :-)

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If you bother to report a bug in the appropriate forum, you can rest assured that it will be looked into.

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Amiga OS 4 / Morphos are interesting because

1. they run on something which is not a pc

2. they have integration with old 68k software

3. they have mui

mui in current state is litte behind 20 years old MFC from MSVC 4.0.

and without ppc hardware Amiga OS 4 / Morphos are not worth of use.

Morphos is little better than MS Windows 20 years ago, only beacuse NT 4.0 was released 19 years ago;)

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@Cego

There is no hardware available to buy brand new that runs either OS4 or MorphOS.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11415&post_id=122478&viewmode=flat&sortorder=1&showonepost=1

Edit: Scratch that as I believe it's still possible to buy a new Efika in certain places so your argument has no basis in fact.

[ Edited by Intuition 04.11.2015 - 18:13 ]

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Efika has been consistently, without any lapses.

http://search.directron.com/newsearch.php?find=efika

People here seem to forget that Genesi had Directron distribution partner. Directron is a major PC system builder and parts reseller.

Directron doesn't play in the Amiga market at all, so getting numbers of how many they have in stock and how many they sell is not something we will ever get. I did call them back around ~2010 inquiring about buying out whatever stock they had left, and they were not interested in even entertaining the idea.

This tells me that at least in 2010 they were selling at whatever was a reasonable rate to them. I'd also bet dollars for donuts that Amigakit tried the same thing in recent years. If they could buy out Directron's stock, they would sell better on an Amiga-centric site. I'm guessing Directron is still selling some boards.

One thing I don't think is mention much here is Petunia. Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia? Isn't Petunia written in ASM, pretty much killing the idea of an easy adaptation to this CPU? How slow will this board be without JIT?

Petunia is not a problem.
Most of 68k amiga software works without fpu.
You will just have find proper version.

@red
Actually what little 68k-SW actually runs under Petunia (or the static emulator) is the least problem, even if they use the FPU as you just would have to change the translation tables to either use integer commonds directly or have it call a replacement function.

[ Edited by Kronos 09.11.2015 - 19:44 ]

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JIT for 68k is not the only problem

also there is no JIT for Odyssey available except at the moment for Aros. On amigaworld there were some benchmarks to compare Tabor with other platforms

https://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v7/run.html

i5 aros result (Odyssey 1.25 with JIT):

Score: 11677
Richards: 13634
DeltaBlue: 11128
Crypto: 14538
Raytrace: 14962
EarlyBoyer: 21832
RegExp: 3594
Splay: 6185
NavierStrokes: 21602

Sam460ex AmigaOS 4.1 FE

Odyssey 1.23

Score: 29.3
Richards: 10.6
DeltaBlue: 7.18
Crypto: 51.9
RayTrace: 32.1
EarleyBoyer: 75.1
RegExp: 11.3
Splay: 60.8
NavierStokes: 84.3

Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -

Qupzilla 1.8.6

Score: 91.3
Richards: 61.8
DeltaBlue: 34.8
Crypto: 108
RayTrace: 92.9
EarleyBoyer: 192
RegExp: 31.3
Splay: 246
NavierStokes: 151

Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot smp kernel

Qupzilla 1.8.6

Score: 158
Richards: 105
DeltaBlue: 90.7
Crypto: 143
RayTrace: 179
EarleyBoyer: 391
RegExp: 48.6
Splay: 422
NavierStokes: 198

I think numbers speak for themselves... it is a wise decision from MorphOS devs to make a ISA change in future

[ Editiert durch OlafSch 09.11.2015 - 23:29 ]

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Worlds between JS on x64 JIt against ppc static. And while I am all for the ISA switch, I sill have hopes the ppc JS-JIT will see light of day to shorten the wait for MorphOS x64.

Here's the result of my Powerbook 1.67Ghz.

Score: 178
Richards: 85.8
DeltaBlue: 80.3
Crypto: 183
RayTrace: 260
EarleyBoyer: 439
RegExp: 54.3
Splay: 652
NavierStokes: 195

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Those numbers are brutal. Do we have X1000 numbers? Here's mine.

PowerMac G5 @ 2.5Ghz
OWB 1.24

Score: 274
Richards: 143
DeltaBlue: 116
Crypto: 274
RayTrace: 401
EarleyBoyer: 823
RegExp: 74.4
Splay: 836
NavierStokes: 343

[ Edited by redrumloa 09.11.2015 - 20:34 ]

>> Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia?

> JIT for 68k is not the only problem [...]. On amigaworld there were some
> benchmarks to compare Tabor with other platforms
> [...]
> Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -
> Qupzilla 1.8.6
> Score: 91.3
> [...]
> Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot smp kernel
> Qupzilla 1.8.6
> Score: 158
> [...]
> I think numbers speak for themselves...

Indeed. They show that regarding JavaScript performance on Linux there's no problem at all with the Tabor's embedded FPU compared to PPC platforms with standard FPU. But that's with everything specifically compiled for e500v2, which we learned from Hyperionmp won't be the case with OS4. (I don't know to what extent hardware floating point is used by Qupzilla when running this benchmark, though.)

The only resonable conclusion is to get AmigaOS 4 to _barely_ work with the Tabor card. It seems resonable to believe that the whole point of it is to make a motherboard as cheap as possible. This can be viewed in three ways:

1. It's good that they try to make something really cheap as hardware for AmigaOS 4 is always expensive, and speed is not an issue anyway. What is important is to be able to use AmigaOS 4 and it's native software. If it can play HD movies or not is not important.

2. Since I (who ever holds this view) think price/performance is important, I think this board is not only horribly overpriced compared to PC motherboards that is sold in their millions, it's also crippled by a incompatible FPU and therefore even slower, unnecessarily. I want my AmigaOS to be more than just a hobby, I want it to compete with the other OS:es so for me it's important that it doesn't have technical limitations that can't eventually be fixed satisfactory. Come to think about it, let's skip PPC altogether and switch to x86 right away. I bet no one has ever suggested that before.

3. Don't ever EVER talk bad about anything AmigaOS 4 related. It's all lies. Or if you can prove it's no lies it's not important. If it's important, then ... yeah ... well you SUCK!

So it's either a toy, a hopeless mistake or religion. The first view I can respect because then it's clearly a hobby. The second I can respect if you don't mock people for having the first view. The third view is just noise.

Amiga is hobby. Hobby may not be super cheap but has to be interesting.

Amiga OS 4/Morphos are interesting because they

a) run on something that is not a pc
b) provide integration with old 68k software

If you want people to support your idea of "switch" to x86 you have to provide something
worth resignation from

a) runnnig on something that is not a pc
b) integration with old 68k software

You have problem because:
a)We have year 2015 and Amiga OS 4/Morphos/AROS are on pair with Windows 95.
You cannot expect people to use on pc something as outdated as Windows 95.
b)There will be not x86 version of many 68k software, because sources are lost.

Attacks on powerpc and Amiga Os 4 do not make sense.
As long as you do not have something worth of use on x86 we amiga users will be still using our
powerpc amigas.

What's the difference between a X5000 and a PC when you remove the PPC, Xena and Xorro? I'm not saying wanting to use PPC isn't reason enough if you like, but everything from the Pegasos I up to today is much closer related to a off-the-shelf PC than the unique design of the Amiga.

It's just like transubstantiation. When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga. Unless of course it's Apple branded, which is kind of ironic, since their boards have more custom designed components than any of the A-Eon boards allegedly "attacked" here.

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And it's not only GUI and usability which is faster on MorphOS, but also the tasks which are mostly based on the raw power/performance. For example video playback is much faster on MorphOS than on OSX. We once made some tests on Mac mini and came to conclusion, that MorphOS plays the same video with about 20% less CPU load, and since then, the MorphOS gfx drivers were optimized more giving about 20% boost to its video playback performance (overlay optimizing introduced some versions again). So, the speed difference is even greater nowadays.


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I don't agree with a) either. It hasn't been about the HW that much since you started to put PC components in your classic Amigas (gfx cards, audio cards, network cards, USB cards, etc). And definitely not after going to "next gen" where almost everything is based to industry standards. PC as a HW isn't any problem nowadays like it used to be in early 90s.

b) has been my major reason to get into MorphOS, so I agree there.


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a) isn't a problem at all for the most. Maybe even preferrable option generally, because you just can't make that much better HW than mainstream nowadays. The pace on HW development is such quick that it's just impossible to try to compete with the big players. Price is also a point and what people have been complaining with next gen things.

b) is getting less and less important. Of course I love the compatibility still, but in the coming years it gets more and more marginal because native options are replacing legacy options and legacy software is aging more and more. You won't get legacy 68k software updated anymore and it'll eat their usability with the time.

Even if MorphOS drops 68k compatibility, it still preserves the amigaish identity and principles how the whole OS works. You still have the familiar structure, components, and usability from the Amiga world, the reason why we all are using this thing. We get new software which still works in Amiga way and old software is actually pretty small part in the big picture.


[ Edited by jPV 12.11.2015 - 10:27 ]

> When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga.

I don't think so. Before the Pegasos II was supported by OS4, it surely wasn't considered an Amiga by OS4 fans. This changed virtually overnight. Accordingly, the Pegasos I never seemed to be considered an Amiga. So the criterion for them seems to be the (announced) support by OS4, which makes sense if you think about it.

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Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?

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Looks like it... isn't the newly announced A.L.I.C.E. just that?