amigadave,
Quote:
While I agree with you concerning the devotion some MorphOS people show to benchmarks, I find the outrage created by just stating facts on the other hand to almost have a religious quality (won't mention the particular belief I have in mind).

@Megander,

I agree! I have no problem with MorphOS users stating the advantages of MorphOS and the hardware that it runs on in a clear and non-offensive way. The problem, as I see it, is that too often, those statements are stated in an offensive, or belittling manner that is meant to insult and infuriate OS4 users, or only X1000 owners.

I would guess that most of those type of posts would not even get submitted, if the person posting them stopped before they clicked the submit button and asked themselves what the purpose of their post was and honestly answered that question to themselves and if the answer was to humiliate, or anger, or make fun of, etc., any or all of the OS4 users and fans, they would stop themselves.

Very few of the posts are informational only or simply educational, without prejudice, or malicious intent. The point I am trying to make is that if the intent is to inform potential OS4 and MorphOS users of the objective differences between the two choices, to help them choose a cheaper and faster alternative of MorphOS, IT ISN'T WORKING! I think it is doing the opposite in 90%+ of those posts, and since I am a big fan of MorphOS and want it to grow a larger user base and more developers, I am trying to point out the counter productivity of such actions.

There are better ways to present these differences and make MorphOS a more attractive and practical choice, but all of us need to realize that to many people, none of the arguments or facts will ever make any difference with a certain group of users who have already made up their minds regarding which choice to make, so there is zero point in arguing with those people, and doing so in public only makes everyone look bad and hurts the chances of gaining more MorphOS users just as much (or more) than it hurts the chances of an increase of OS4 users.

My view is that promotion of MoprhOS does not have to include any negative effects toward OS4's future existence. It does not have to be a "This, or That" confrontation. It can be a "This and/or That", "Live and let Live" philosophy, or state of mind. MorphOS is good enough to succeed on it's own merits, without needing to attack any other choices. That mind set will lead to a better future for MorphOS. I am sure of it.

Edit: If you can remove yourself from the equation, and look at if from the outside, or better yet, if you can reverse the situation, it is easy to see why some of the OS4 fans and enthusiasts have become ultra sensitive to any criticism, or comparisons of their OS of choice. They are bombarded daily with the same arguments and criticisms and jabs of ridicule toward their preferred OS and/or hardware choices. Anyone might respond with hostility after a while under the same conditions. They have made their choice and have also decided that they do not wish to switch choices. The reasons for those decisions are irrelevant to them, so it does not matter what you say to them, they are not going to switch horses in mid-stream. Now that I have made the conscious decision to add OS4.x to my stable of Amiga inspired hobbies, it is easier to see why some OS4.x users have become so sensitive (or religiously fanatic) about their choices. I don't condone the level of some of their reactions, but I can better understand them now.

Do you really want to argue religious beliefs with anyone? It is sort of the same thing and needs to be approached with about as much care and forethought to have any chance of success. In this instance, is it really worth the effort required, or is what 90%+ of the MorphOS users who post about OS4.x and it's hardware, are doing just an entertainment to insult, ridicule, and make fun of people that have made different choices than they have?

[ Edited by amigadave 21.02.2012 - 22:28 ]

amigadave,
Quote:

Would you care to back up that number with facts?

Just for the record, there are plenty of AROS, UAE, and Classic Amiga devotees on websites such as amiga.org who have been criticizing the available hardware choices for that particular operating system. Posts requesting a port to affordable x86 hardware are also a very regular occurence, much more so than on this website, for instance.

Not everyone who is vocal about performance and pricing issues does so out of pure hate or for the purposes of promoting something else. Quite a few would be interested to try certain alternative software options but are personally disappointed by either the high entry cost or what is perceived as vastly inadequate value for money.

Amigadave, thanks for the answers about the X1000. I am surprised to hear of your health problems, get well soon!

That's good that Amigakit is vowing to replace the case. I hope they're ready to fund the actual switch at a service near you too, because it sounds like you might not be able to do it because of your back.

@ASiegel,

My comments here are not about only posts made on this forum. This place is much cleaner from abusive posts than most other forum sites and it is a credit to the members here that there is not more OS4.x bashing that goes on here. If I had to choose the worst forum site for fighting right now, I would probably choose Amiga.org, which was my favorite Amiga related site for many years and really my Amiga home on the Internet, until Wayne sold it and it has been going steadily down hill ever since.

What I meant with that 90%+ estimated number, is not that 90%+ of the negative posts come from MorphOS users, but that 90%+ of the negative messages posted by MorphOS users, are made not for pure educational, or statistical purposes. They are made because the few MorphOS users that make most of such negative posts about OS4.x, or the hardware choices available and the prices charged for them, are doing so with motives to harm, ridicule, belittle, or mock, and that those posts are counter productive to growing the MorphOS user base. The people making those posts do not realize the potential harm they are doing and how such posts affect many other potential MorphOS users and/or developers. Some of the most vocal MorphOS users that bash OS4.x and it's hardware just do it out of habit, because it has been going on for so long and for them it is easy to do. For some, it is entertainment. I understand that it is not just MorphOS users that do the bashing and that there are also many original Amiga 68k users and probably several AROS users, maybe some UAE users and MiniMig users, that participate in the OS4.x bashing just as much, or more so than the MorphOS users, but due to past history, more attention is focused on the problem when it is done by the few most vocal MorphOS users, instead of the Amiga 68k users, or anyone else. There are guilty parties on all sides, and in my opinion the number of the worst offenders are actually fairly small and most users of all platforms just want to get along and have the fighting stop.

It is not worth my time or effort to try to prove my estimates are accurate, but I still stand by my statement that only about 10% of the messages posted by MorphOS users, regarding the performance or features (or lack of them) in OS4.x are doing it without any intention to insult, belittle, or embarrass the users and/or developers of OS4.x, or manufacturers of it's hardware. The other 90%+ of the posts made by MorphOS users regarding OS4.x and it's hardware are made with malicious intent of some kind, and those posts are counter productive toward growing the number of MorphOS users and developers, who might otherwise return to one faction, or another of the Amiga community.

If most of the MorphOS users here don't agree with me that the few most vocal OS4.x bashers do so for the reasons that I have outlined above, that is their choice and they can believe what ever they want to believe. I am not going to argue about it with them, or anyone, as it is a waste of time. That is my opinion and my belief that it is hurting the chances of some users and developers wanting to try out MorphOS.

I know of at least one developer who I have communicated with that told me straight out that the fighting has prevented him from wanting to get back into programming for any flavor of the Amiga community.

I am sure that I will continue to try to spread my belief to other MorphOS and OS4.x users, in hopes that the fighting will become less frequent, but for now, I am done preaching in this thread. I think everyone reading my posts can understand what I am trying to convey, and why. For those that don't, or don't want to understand, so it is easier for them to disagree with me, I am not going to spend any more time on this topic at this time. I have bigger problems to concentrate on, like preparing for another back surgery in a few months and fighting with the doctors and insurance companies to get through all of the "Red Tape", to allow the surgery to be scheduled.

[ Edited by amigadave 22.02.2012 - 13:11 ]

Hi Dave,
I hope you get relief from your back pain. I am back from the EDGE in 2010. I had psiatica that left me immobile with pain. Oxycondone gave me relief and the time to have my body get back. I have lost 30 plus pounds to get some of the pressure off the disks.
I got a expensive "Mirra" chair for my back that I use with the MacMini. I like you need the Powerbook for medical reasons. I have two Powerbooks waitng and it hurts knowing that MorphOS is running on the Powerbook. I wonder if there is a major problem with the release of 3.0. I say that because both my PowerBooks have power management issues but I think it is 10.5.8 and not the hardware.

Get better Dave

Thanks for your concern regarding my back pain. It is something I have been fighting all of my life, ever since I fractured it the first time when I was 15 years old and working lifting a wheel barrow full of rocks, to clear someone property before construction began.

I fractured it a second time lifting a wall, when I was building houses at age 25, but the worst injury was a car accident almost 22 years ago and I have been in pain every day and night since that date.

I had an artificial disc installed in my back in Dec. of 2006, but instead of relieving my pain, it made it worse, and I was forced to retire from working earlier than I wanted at age 51 in July of 2007.

Hopefully I will have better luck with a second back surgery some time this year, and can begin to get back to some kind of normal life. (full time Amiga & MorphOS programmer/promoter Ha!)

Losing weight is not a problem for me, as I only weigh 185 pounds at a height of 6 feet and 1 inch, so I am not considered over weight for my height. I just need to be able to exercise again, so my weight that has turned muscle into fat around my stomach, can be reversed back to the way I looked 10 years ago. Even with my constant back pain, I was an athlete until my back pain got worse about 8 to 10 years ago and I could no longer participate in any sports. My younger Sister is still competing at age 54 in triathlons and did the Iron Man competition last year in Hawaii. She ran in the Olympics in Los Angeles in 1984, so you can imagine that my family has always been athletic and competitive.

[ Edited by amigadave 22.02.2012 - 21:24 ]

amigadave,

Quote:

Perhaps MorphOS users are majority these days. Dunno. But I tell you something. Amigaworld.net was founded because OS4 didnt receive support from users at Amiga.org. Then Amigans.net was founded because OS4 no longer received support from users at Amigaworld.net. Now Amigans.net is dying and last users are migrating to new forum at Hyperion's website.

To certain OS4 users it is always just matter of finding new scapegoat. When X1000 didnt meet its expections it was again fault of other evil Amiga users who didnt buy X1000.

Blaming MorphOS again for something is not new. There are people who are speaking altered truth and willing to find scapegoats.

Quote:

I dont see how it could hurt more MorphOS than AROS or AmigaOS 3. OS4 was always ridiculed by Amiga community. MorphOS/AROS is/was also ridiculed by Amiga community but we have accepted its flaws.

[ Edited by itix 23.02.2012 - 07:45 ]

@itix,

I am not blaming MorphOS for anything or making anyone a scapegoat. I like MorphOS and it is my favorite Amiga inspired operating system at this point in time. I actively promote it every chance I get and I have spent a lot on my limited income in promoting MorphOS at the last 4 AmiWest Shows, and by donating free MorphOS computers to new MorphOS developers. I will continue to promote MorphOS, but I will do it in a way that does not require bashing, or bad mouthing any other platform. MorphOS has sufficient merits of its own, enough positive features, for me to point out to potential users, without needing to compare it to OS4.x, or anything else.

I am just trying to make a point that the few MorphOS users who continue to bash, ridicule and belittle, or mock OS4.x users and their hardware are acting in a counter productive manner, if they care about gaining more MorphOS users.

It does not hurt my feelings if anyone wants to make fun of OS4.x, or my X1000. It is just that I think that those kinds of actions reduce the chances of gaining more MorphOS users and developers. Since my main goal is to promote more software development for all Amiga inspired systems, including MorphOS, I am just hoping that some of what I am writing will make sense to some of the users that are doing things which I think hurt my goals, and that they reduce, or stop repeating those actions that I believe are counter productive.

I feel good about my decisions and the reasons behind them, so nothing anyone else says is going to change that and make be regret what I have done. Also, I am not trying to convince anyone else to make the same choices that I have made. The only thing I would like to see, is more users actively helping to find and recruit more developers, and supporting the developers we already have, so we can see more new software created.

That is all, I don't have any other hidden agenda.

Quote:

If some people are so childliss they let a couple vocal extremists to guide their actions I can't say I miss them too much in our community.

Besides, lets be realists here. Does it really matter much if ten more people join or not.

amigadave,

Quote:

OS4 is always good reference for comparison because it is Amiga compatible operating system running on PowerPC hardware. OS3 is also good reference for comparisons for same reasons and sometimes OS3 users do counterbenchmarks on their WinUAE or Amithlon.

If OS4 users dont like comparison with MorphOS it is not my problem. Those complaints should be posted to Hyperion's support forum instead.

Quote:

I doubt bashing, ridiculing, belittling or mocking OS4 users or OS4 itself or OS4 hardware would have any impact to MorphOS.

Neither I know any Amiga/MorphOS user bashing, ridiculing, belittling or mocking OS4 users because they are using OS4. There are some funny users (who dont have all moomins in the valley, as saying goes here in Finland) without realistic image about Amiga nor OS4 -- but again it is only because those persons dont have any clue.

Quote:
That's very true. Within this month, I remember reading about someone complaining about "MorphOS splitting the community"

It's not that long ago, and if you can't remember, it's easy to check the facts, that when MorphOS was started, there wasn't really much going on the "official" side. Shortly after, the WHOLE AmigaOS (as we know it) was announced dead. How can you split something that's dead?

Sure, anyone can stay with "dead" 68k with unofficial updates, but when someone creates something new, I wouldn't call that "split".

Also, later there were discussions about making MorphOS the official AmigaOS. Such discussions won't generally happen, if there's SOMETHING on the "other side of the claimed split".

But yes, that never happened, and a while later, Hyperion split the community with AmigaOS4. And no, I don't blame them for that. It's a free market.

NOTE: Of course there's also AROS, but as we were concentrating on MorphOS vs OS4...

@hooligan,

Quote:

If those ten people are programmers, it could make a large difference in a community as small as ours that has a limited amount of new software being written each year.

Some of you appear to think I am criticizing all, or most MorphOS users and asking everyone to change, which is not the case at all.

I am just attempting to change the habits and maybe attitudes of a very small minority of vocal users in our community, because I have first hand knowledge that what they are doing occasionally is having a negative effect on some people that otherwise would be interested in returning and contributing to our community.

Are some OS4.x users too sensitive? Yes, they are. Should these former users and developers ignore the small minority of vocal users who still enjoy stirring up fights between the two PPC system camps and return to participate and contribute, regardless of what is written on some forum? Of course they should!

Are these former users and developers valuable to our community and should we do more to entice them to return? Who knows the answer to that question, they might be.

Are there also trolls on the OS4.x side that attack MorphOS users and the hardware that we use? Yes, there are, but that does not justify the existence of MorphOS using trolls to make it okay to attack OS4.x and its hardware.

Is it okay to compare OS4.x to MorphOS2.x/3.x? Yes, but if you care about the perception of potential MorphOS users, there are good ways to present such comparisons and there are negative ways of doing it that turn many people off, and make them become uninterested in even looking at MorphOS2.x/3.x.

Why would any MorphOS user argue with these ideas and say that it makes no difference, or we don't need those people that are offended? Maybe just one of those people that are offended and walk away from looking at using and possibly developing something for MorphOS2.x/3.x has a great idea for a software project, or the programming skills to provide some needed application, or utility, for MorphOS in the future.

Remember, I am not writing about all, or even most MorphOS users, and even the few MorphOS users that write negative messages about OS4.x might not do it all the time. I am just saying that those negative messages can (and have in the past) have a counter productive effect toward advancing the number of MorphOS users and developers.

@everyone else,

Please don't pick apart my message and try to make it mean something else, just so you can defend some alternate position, or ideas about MorphOS and its users. Remember that MorphOS is my favorite operating system of choice and I have a very high regard for how it works and the roadmap that the MorphOS Dev. Team has followed over the past several years (for as long as I have been involved and interested in it, since before 2.0 was released).

I am on your side! Just because I also chose to support OS4.x by buying an X1000, that does not mean that I am now the enemy. It just means that I like to explore all sides of the remaining Amiga community, and I wanted to own a computer capable of running OS4.x.

@AmigaDave

Quote:

Yes if... but the fact that (*) OS4 has virtually no software which makes me go OOH! speaks for itself. IMO we already have most of the cherries on our side of the cake.

* If I am mistaken nothing would make me more happy than a correction on this matter.


Anyway, drifting away from the topic, sorry for my part.

@hooligan,

this discussion is not about getting OS4.x programmers to switch to MorphOS.

My comments are more about EVERYONE who reads the fighting and bad mouthing that happens (not here, but mostly on other forum sites), gets a bad perception. Potential users and developers for MorphOS community will mostly come from current and former Amiga 68k users and programmers, not from OS4.x users and programmers. The OS4.x users and programmers have already chosen which PPC Amiga NG system they want to use (for the most part). There are a few that switch and there are more that are interested in using both. The fighting, or bashing turns off a lot of people on all sides, no matter who does it, or who it is aimed at.

There are also a few programmers and computer enthusiast that join the Amiga community that have zero prior experience with the Amiga, like the Mac guy who just bought an X1000, after buying a SAM and a MacMini earlier, to run both OS4.x and MorphOS2.7.

When a community is as small as ours is, why promote, or say it is okay and makes no difference to do things that might push some new users and developers away. I say we need every single user and programmer we can get. It is obvious that not everyone feels the same way though, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I have already written ten times as much as I ever wanted to on this topic.

I would like to have everyone understand what I am writing about, even if they don't agree with me, which is why I have spent so much time trying to explain myself.

This is about perception of users, programmers and people from the outside looking in. How do we want to be percieved and how important is it to each one of us to get more users and programmers using and writing software for MorphOS?

For me, getting more programmers and software is at the very top of my list of (hobby) priorities. Right above improving my own weak programming skills.

Many users and programmers will say that none of this makes any difference (and they might be right).

redrumloa,
Quote:
Hmmm! I can't remember making that remark, but if I did so what. The time for squabbling and fighting is over. Amiga users (no quotes this time ) need to move on. If a person is happy with his or her choice of next-generation OS that is fine. Why winge and moan about someones else's choice. Some of us want to embrace a wider "Amiga" experience. As a MorphOS (I think I have 5 or 6 licences?), AmigaOS and AROS user I can appreciate all flavours of the Amiga world. I even downloaded Commodore OS, but what "Linux Mint" has got to do with the original CBM or the Amiga I'm not so sure?

BTW I'm pleased that AmigaDave has joined the "party"!

TrevorD

TrevorDick,
Quote:

I can't remember making that remark, but if I did so what.

You tell 'em Trevor.
Time to get over it.

[ Edited by Jim 23.02.2012 - 22:21 ]

TrevorDick,
Quote:

Who's whining about someone else' choices in this thread? I was responding to the suggestion that no one should make benchmark comparisons because some OS4 users might take offense to it. I find that notion silly. People have been using benchmarks for decades. Heck, I benchmarked my C128 when I had a SuperCPU! The X1000 is not above comparison because of the historical Amiga connection. If cold hard benchmarks bother someone, that is not my problem. I prefer MorphOS yet, AROS benchmarks don't bother me. The rest of the world outside of our little sandbox laugh at all of our hobby choices.

BTW, I am impressed you got the X1000 out the door. I didn't think it would happen. I have zero interest myself, but obviously it was a big undertaking in a market full of sharks (not you).

Quote:
Thanks. It was a bigger undertaking than I originally envisaged, for a number of reasons. However, that's all water under the bridge now.

TrevorD



[ Edited by TrevorDick 24.02.2012 - 13:12 ]

@ TrevorDick

Well, at least nobody can say you didn't do it... (Whether it was smart or not is a different matter )

@redrumloa,

If you read my posts more carefully, you will see that there is no where that I wrote that benchmarks and comparisons should not be made. I have only tried to stress that there are differing ways to present the results of such tests and that presenting them in a way that is intentionally, or even unintentionally, but clearly negative, or belittling, or mocking, is just a counter productive habit for a few MorphOS users (as well as Amiga 68k users, and maybe a few AROS users) and that this behavior does have an effect of pushing some potential users and programmers away from MorphOS.

Presentation and perception make a difference. Some people don't care, but I want this community to grow, and I do care.

Quote:

True, a hell of a achievement compared to many other tries in the past. Hats off to Trevor for this.

@ TrevorD

Quote:

Actually, this might be a reference to the official A-Eon X1000 website which says: "The X1000 ends the years of AmigaOS being relegated to a ghetto of outdated hardware"

Link: Official A-Eon X1000 Web Page

Of course, the statement is about AmigaOS, not AROS or MorphOS. But a sales pitch like this does seem like an open invitation to make benchmark comparisons with all sorts of 'outdated' hardware (including x86 hardware running official AmigaOS versions via 68k emulator).

Quote:
The first "X1000 vs. MorphOS systems" benchmark I ever saw showed, that X1000 was clearly faster than anything else.

After a while it was found out that for some reason, MorphOS benchmarks were done with non-altivec lame version, which definitely steered the benchmark towards X1000. Not blaming someone doing this on purpose, just pointing out that that was definitely an error worth correcting.

On the other hand, f.ex. memory benchmarks are (as expected) clearly in favour of X1000.