Hi guys,

new week, more info.

So I followed up JVP's suggestion and compared file size - and lo and behold, the file size of the "strangely renamed" OT TTF was not identical to the file size of the actual font. I once more copied the font file to SYS:FONTS/_ttf/ (hope I got it right this time) - and now MORPHEUS can see both the OT TTF as well as the OT CFF.

Unfortunately, MORPHEUS is extremely buggy and has a lot of issues with actually loading the fonts. They are both in the fonts dropdown - but actually selecting them to start writing is a nightmare. BUT - I managed to select them in the end, and was able to WRITE with them. So this WORKS.

So to summarize: SYS:FONTS/_ttf/ seems to be a drawer that "some" applications tap into in order to get their fonts. And should the app be able to read OpenTypes, then these will be read. However, these fonts will NOT become part of the system fonts list.

However, the "official" way to install those fonts seems to be using a tool called FTManager. From what I understand, this tool analyzes the font file (which has to be a TTF?) and then creates two additional files (.font and .otag files). Unfortunately, I am not 100% sure if this is legal when using commercial fonts. I will need to check with our legal department. Most font foundries do not allow extracting font information from their fonts in order to create a new file.

The next question would be: does this actually work? OT TTF might look like TrueType fonts. But they are not. OpenType is a container format, and it includes a lot of possible options, like alternates or even contextual writing. I strongly assume this will either not work at all, or reduce the OpenType to its TrueType characters (and maybe not even all of them - OT TTF can hold up to 56 000 chars. But old TrueTypes usually only held 256 chars).

Will test this asap. Stay tuned.

[ Edited by pikewerfer 26.07.2021 - 16:39 ]

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I think it's more like a wrapper to the font (to be compatible to Amiga font API or something like that) and doesn't actually extract much/any information from the actual font data. Generated .font files are only 4 bytes long, so they must only contain some binary file type identification bytes or such. And .otag file sizes are only couple hundred bytes and they mainly contain paths pointing to the actual font (in _ttf dir).

So, my guess is that there probably isn't any copyrighted data extracted/converted, but maybe some MorphOS developer would know better :)

> my guess is that there probably isn't any copyrighted data extracted/converted

Yes, that's what I get from reading the sources linked from this Google search.

Good! I will simply assume this is no violation - and continue.

To my surprise, FTManager lists both the OT TTF as well as the OT CFF. I can install both.

After rebooting the OS... I ACTUALLY HAVE BOTH FONTS LISTED IN THE MORPHOS PREFS - IN FONTS!

WHOOOOOOT!!

So looks like installing it using FTManager gets these fonts installed for real! Now let's find some apps to test these fonts with. Any suggestions?

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Oh, that's cool! :)


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Open a picture in ShowCase and select "Process -> Insert Text" from the rmb pull-down menu (or press command-t key combination), select font, type something in the "text" field and adjust the position sliders if needed :)

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FontTester for example available in MorphOS Storage:
https://www.morphos-storage.net/
https://www.morphos-storage.net/?id=1637829

>> Yes, that's what I get from reading the sources
>> linked from this Google search.

> FontTester for example available in MorphOS Storage: [...]

Wrong quote?

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Humm, I though that him needs programs to test fonts under MorphOS.

>>>> Yes, that's what I get from reading the sources
>>>> linked from this Google search.

>>> FontTester for example available in MorphOS Storage: [...]

>> Wrong quote?

> I though that him needs programs to test fonts under MorphOS.

Yes, but you replied to me (talking about .otag files), not to him.

New Day, new discoveries

@NewSense - thank you for your email, I sent you the fonts. Have fun playing around.

@Templario - thank you for the hint. I installed FontTester and loaded both fonts. Both fonts were read, so it SEEMS that the freetype.library used by MorphOS is indeed able to load OpenType data - or at least load TT and PS outlines stored in an OpenType.

However, the FontTester only shows standard characters. So only BASIC LATIN and LATIN EXTENDED (the w01 and w02 codepages, i.e. the first two codepages of a font).

In other words, only 132 characters are shown - but Syntax has 385 characters. I strongly assume MorphOS is only loading the first two codepages, assuming that there is nothing else in there (which used to be the case with TT and PS fonts).

Unfortunately, standard OT fonts can have up to 56 000 chars included. If my assumption is correct, then installing a Chinese font would not enable you to write Chinese, because you would never be able to reach those codepages that host those several thousand chars.

Still, looks like the fonts as such a functional and also render ok. So at least for users using Latin scripts (aka English), it is possible to use professional OpenTypes. Nice!

@JVC - I tried using ShowCase, and that did work. I was able to include both fonts as text into the image.

So all in all I would say: More fonts would make MorphOS more "morphy".

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Uffs, sorry.

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The special charapters or symbols as in the cases of cirilic for Greek, chinesse or japanese kanji, they can show if the program or game uses them, but not if the program or game use the system default fonts and you use MorphOS with other language for example english, this feature from Windos doesn't work in Amiga systems, but if your game or program use the special fonts loaded they are show, for example my experiment fame Sabrina, cans show the the chinese and japanesse languages even in the menu but only under Windows in MorphOS and AmigaOS4 not, but the text inside the window they were showed perfectly in these Amiga systems.

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Hi there - would it be possible to make a short video showing this? I am not sure I get it. Thanks.

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You can also use the FlowStudio editor to test extended characters. In UTF-8/TTEngine mode, it uses a secondary font backend called TTEngine which is also used by some newer MUI apps like Iris and/or Wayfarer to have character support beyond the classical codepage range. MUI support for the new font backend has been introduced in MorphOS 3.12.
In theory, you should be able to copy/paste UTF8 data from within a Wayfarer HTML page or load a UTF-8 coded text document with extended characters. You have to integrate new fonts using Tools/TTEManager instead of Tools/FTManager, though. At some point, both the legacy font system and the extended one will most likely be merged but currently they basically coexist for the time being.

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Humm, I don't know how make a video with it, I use this with Hollywood language and make test and error to know what work and not.

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Oh wow - super-interesting information! So we basically have a legacy font installation workflow using FTManager & a new font installation workflow using TTEngine! Great. I will test the new workflow asap naturally.

@cyfm - one quick question: should I uninstall the fonts I installed via FTManager before reinstalling them via TTEngine? Or would it be ok to actually install them twice? How would they be shown in the system fonts list if we do so?

@all - this is a really cool crowd, and I absolutely am enjoying my journey into MorphOS so far. I would like to continue - so I will now try to get better hardware (I currently have a Mac mini G4 1.25). What would the currently fastest machine be for MorphOS? Are there upcoming PPC machines one might want to pre-buy?

And I will definitely try to help getting more font onboarded

> What would the currently fastest machine be for MorphOS?

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13168&forum=11

> Are there upcoming PPC machines one might want to pre-buy?

There are newish and upcoming Power(PC) machines, all of them without the prospect of MorphOS being ported to them, so do not pre-buy if MorphOS is what you want to run.
As the MorphOS team has always said, the possibility of a port to hardware that the MorphOS team doesn't happen to own already or that a MorphOS team member doesn't want to get anyway necessarily depends on the respective hardware being donated to the MorphOS team.
If you want a newly available (as in unused) machine that's in G5 ballpark performance-wise (but unfortunately lacks AltiVec/VMX SIMD) and that MorphOS already supports, you could try to get an A-Eon AmigaOne X5000 (or just its CyrusPlus mainboard).

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I have installed both fonts you sent me, and though they seem to be "seen" when installed through the FTManager (they have not currently been uninstalled from FTManager) , they are then not recognised once installed with TTEngine in FlowStudio as an available font, and neither are many of the fonts I have installed in my Sys:Fonts/_ttf directory as they are not shown as available as TTFonts for use in FlowStudio.

I too managed to get the Syntax font you sent me, viewable in Morpheus v1.77.

However, as you commented, and I have also remarked on MorphOS-Storage that Morpheus is somewhat CPU intensive and "flaky", but sadly Carsten Siegner has not fixed this program, just moved onto something else, yet again, leaving it half-finished (optimistically speaking), which is a pity as it did, like many of his projects, show some good ideas, just rarely stable/completely fixed.

So, sadly the Syntax type font (OT CFF) is virtually unrecognised in many other applications, so far during my time testing it, which is a pity (Morpheus is the only application that has loaded/used it, which is strange that you should have tried it in that program and it worked - first time lucky - are you lucky at cards too ).

PageStream 4 won't recogonise the Syntax font in its font lister, once all the fonts have been installed in the Sys:Fonts/_ttf directory. Though WordWorth 7 loads it as an available font, but won't input the characters on the screen, whereas the Helvetica font you sent me does load/input characters on screen, and seems to work quite normally, even displaying the extended characters in PageStream 4.

I tried to get RNOPublisher to load the Syntax and Helvetica font, which it seemed to do, but won't load all the extended character set, and also won't save the document as a PDF as it generates an error requester stating -

Which means I have to contact jPV about that error - but I have other points to raise about the program as well - so standby jPV for an email from me in the very near future.

The Helvetica font pikewerfer sent me works in most circumstances, though only PageStream 4 is able to display the extended characters fully, as I cannot think of another MorphOS suported program that would allow Font Ctrl-C Mnemonic input or Ctrl-D Unicode input or even Windows type Alternate keypress input, like PageStream offers, but as the Syntax font is not really recognised in almost all of the applications I have tried so far it may be a step too far to get it to be recognised as it needs to be with the current TT Font engines/libraries that are part of MorphOS at this stage of development, but if others want to try the font they should contact pikewerfer to be able to do so, as I feel sure he would appreciate all the help he can get, if others have the time to test the fonts with MorphOS.
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@ pikewrefer - That would be a big outlay for you for such hardware, with you not knowing how much use you will get out of the system at this stage.

If I was you, which I'm not, I'd try to get hold of a PowerBook A1138 or A1139 (both 1.67GHz G4 portable models), or another MacMini G4 (1.5GHz 64MB VRAM - "silent upgrade") model, from a system cost perspective, as those models are good at what they do. As I use a 1.5GHz MacMini for what I do most days, and I think you'll find, initially at least, it takes up only a small desktop area, or slotted onto a shelf, and you can use USB2 wireless mice or trackballs, and Bluetooth keyboards if you dual-boot with Mac OSX and use the pairing from there to initiate a bluetooth keyboard, which is what I do, or just use a standard USB2 keyboard, so you can sit back on a sofa/couch and access your machine in comfort, maybe even from a bath, with a bluetooth keyboard, as you can control the mouse functions by using the Windows/Command+cursor key(s) or Windows/Command+Alt/Option+cursor key(s), or Shift+Command+cursor key(s).

The PowerMac G5s are the most powerful Apple produced models supported by MorphOS AFAIK, but they are also the heaviest, largest, most power hungry systems that are available, and I've ended up with failed CPUs, which need to be replaced out or just swapped, and then thermally re-calibrated with Apple Service software CD, which can be obtained usually from an online search, or helpful MorphOS user, but Power Mac G5 models can generally be obtained fairly cheaply.

This is just an oversight on hardware available, that I have learned from while using MorphOS, for you to get a realistic perspective for you to choose from.

MorphOS cannot read more than 1.8Gb of RAM, if I've got that figure correct, or thereabouts, so no matter how much more RAM you fit it won't be useable under MorphOS.

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RNOPublisher isn't a proper test case here, because it bypasses the operating system's font system completely. I decided to use Hollywood's internal font engine for using/rendering ttf fonts on the application, and it might have some limitations compared to what the actual OS is capable to. And the PDF saving uses what libHaru (Hollywood's plugin is based on that) offers, the error you got is from it and I can't do anything for that myself... should ask from Hollywood's author for plugin options or libHaru developers, but I don't think it's actively developed anymore so chances might be slim.

@NewSense - thank you so much for all of your help! So I daresay we can conclude: if we want to create a Monotype Free Type Package for MorphOS users, then it should be OT TTF. These get recognized by most apps, and even those applications that cannot fully grab the complete char set can at least get the first two codepages, i.e. writing European languages would definitely be possible. So let me see what I can do here. It would be nice to give something to this community.

@Andreas & NewSense - concerning the hardware: I strongly believe that the future of our everyday work will be cloud-based. My whole work day consists of sitting in front of a browser - I hardly ever open anything else.

My browser contains everything I need to work: Slack, Google Docs, YouTube, JIRA, Confluence, Sharepoint, Drift, MS Office Online, etc. I have a browser with about 20 open tabs. The only separate app I have is my mail client - and even that I could do in my browser.

Now, of course it is fun to work with lots of apps to do different things - especially retro stuff. But concerning work, only speed and browser power is relevant.

Which means - if I want to use MorphOS for work I need to make sure that: a. it runs on systems that are really fast and b. have a browser that is cutting edge.

At the moment, MorphOS is only running on Legacy Systems. So I will get a G5 and see how fast MorphOS will run for me. But naturally I hope there will be a new PPC computer that is fast and high-end somewhere in the future. And if there is, I would be more than willing to support and also donate to get MorphOS ported.

Concerning the browser - I really like Wayfarer. And I will naturally support it to get as good as Chrome Because once it is, MorphOS would be a really inexpensive awesome alternative for companies who work with web apps all the time, but only have limited budget for their hardware. If they have to buy 10 G5 Macs and pay 79 bucks per seat instead of buying 10 M1 Apple Macs .... well Plus I would then start using it for work as well

BTW - started testing some of these web apps:

SalesForce (Lightning): is working fine, but loading VERY slow (--> need faster machine/more RAM)

GoogleDrive: Also seems to work - but is way too slow to actually work with it (--> need faster machine/more RAM)

YouTube (okay, so this is nice-to-have - since I use it to listen to music while I work): works fine - a bit slow, but fine

So far, it looks like the browser can do it, and so can MorphOS. The hardware is just not up to it. Looking forward to testing more on a faster Mac G5.

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You probably should install fonts both ways even. The managing tools are basically needed to create some short path metadata for the related engines. As I've mentioned already, both systems are not fully merged yet. So you most likely have to install fonts which you want to use everywhere including Unicode capable MUI apps with both managers as it is now.
Applications which have extended character support automatically use TTEngine then, the "legacy" ones do fall back to FTEngine.

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@cyfm - thanks so much! I will install them "twice" and see what kind of results I am getting. BTW - can I in any way help with setting up the new & improved font flow in MorphOS? I am an expert in fonts, but know not a lot about coding apps If nothing else, I can provide all kinds of fonts for you to test with....

>> MorphOS cannot read more than 1.8Gb of RAM, if I've got
>> that figure correct, or thereabouts, so no matter how
>> much more RAM you fit it won't be useable under MorphOS.

> My whole work day consists of sitting in front of a browser - I hardly
> ever open anything else. My browser contains everything I need to work:
> [...]. I have a browser with about 20 open tabs. [...] concerning work,
> only speed and browser power is relevant. Which means - if I want to use
> MorphOS for work I need to make sure that: a. it runs on systems that
> are really fast and b. have a browser that is cutting edge.

With MorphOS, there are at least those problems (probably more) with your browser requirement:
- MorphOS can only use up to 1.7 GiB RAM, which means only up to 1.5 GiB for the browser, which surely wouldn't suffice for 20 web apps running concurrently
- MorphOS can only use 1 CPU core, no matter how many there are in the hardware, so this single core will have to run all your web apps
- even the latest PowerMac G5 is 16 years old, which shows performance-wise
- Wayfarer lacks a JavaScript JIT compiler, making modern web apps run even slower

> At the moment, MorphOS is only running on Legacy Systems.

While probably not everyone would agree with calling the X5000 a legacy system, MorphOS running on it has the same limitations mentioned above (yes, also performance-wise, although it is more than a decade younger than the latest PowerMac G5).

> I hope there will be a new PPC computer that is fast
> and high-end somewhere in the future.

There have been for some years (as I linked to in comment #44). Direct links:

https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/
https://www.raptorcs.com/BB/

I guess if the MorphOS team had (a) Blackbird(s), a port would be highly likely.

> once it is, MorphOS would be a really inexpensive awesome alternative
> for companies who work with web apps all the time, but only have
> limited budget for their hardware. If they have to buy 10 G5 Macs and
> pay 79 bucks per seat instead of buying 10 M1 Apple Macs .... well :-)

I really don't think this reasoning makes sense, first for the reasons mentioned above, and second because AMD64/x64/x86-64 hardware with G5 level performance can also be had for (next to) nothing. I don't see any economic incentive for companies to utilize Power(PC) systems running MorphOS for their employees.

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Haha - agreed. A really cheap box with a free Linux will get you there. Sad but true.

So nostalgia and fun are our main drivers here. But I still think we could make the effort? We need more memory access, being able to access more CPU power plus a port to a high-end machine. Sounds doable - I believe a good scrum team could get there in a few months.

How about a kickstarter/fundraiser to buy a BB?