Irrlight engine port for MorphOS bounty
  • Just looking around
    Bastiaan
    Posts: 18 from 2014/8/7
    From: Amsterdam, The...
    Hi,

    Here is my bounty to support the MorphOS community. I think MorphOS can use a good 3D game engine. I will pay € 400,- to the person who brings Irrlight engine (v1.8.4+) to MorphOS. The sources of the port should be open sourced on a trusty platform like sourceforge.

    http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/

    Best,

    Bastiaan
  • »18.08.16 - 19:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Bastiaan wrote:
    Hi,

    Here is my bounty to support the MorphOS community. I think MorphOS can use a good 3D game engine. I will pay € 400,- to the person who brings Irrlight engine (v1.8.4+) to MorphOS. The sources of the port should be open sourced on a trusty platform like sourceforge.

    http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/

    Best,

    Bastiaan


    Sounds great to me. I'll also donate to this bounty, if you will set up a bounty for a MorphOS port of this 3D engine. It could only open up more new opportunities for better 3D software for MorphOS in the future.

    It would be great to get some newer 3D games, and applications running on MorphOS in the near future, but I wonder if this port of Irrlicht is possible. Did you already check for dependencies?
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »18.08.16 - 22:46
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1101 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ Bastiaan

    This is a very generous offer but what is your ultimate objective here? Do you hope to make porting easier and improve the amount of available 3D games?

    Apart from SuperTuxKart, there do not appear to be many notable projects that actually use Irrlicht. In fact, even SuperTuxKart switched to a heavily modified version of Irrlicht.
  • »19.08.16 - 07:49
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  • Just looking around
    Bastiaan
    Posts: 18 from 2014/8/7
    From: Amsterdam, The...
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Sounds great to me. I'll also donate to this bounty



    Super! And good to hear that other people are interested in this port too.

    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Did you already check for dependencies?



    I don't think it has that many exotic dependencies. There are the standard libs OpenGL, zlib, libpng etc. but I haven't found any real showstoppers yet. I'm fully aware that there currently is no shader support on Morphos, according to the features of Irrlight it has a rendering engine for OpenGL 1.2-4.x. So I think it is technically possible to connect it to the current feature set of MorphOS's TinyGL (Based on OpenGL 1.2) implementation.

    For Linux compiling the dependencies are listed here i think:

    Irrlight Linux dependencies


    Quote:

    A Siegel wrote:
    This is a very generous offer but what is your ultimate objective here?



    The objective is to have a complete free 3D game engine on MorphOS. Irrlight supports a wide range of texture and mesh file formats out-of-the-box:

    Source: Irrlight Features

    Let say you want to engage in (3D) game development on MorphOS, then these are the options i found:

    - Native
    Write your own game engine using C(++) and make hard calls to TinyGL. This is nice, but you are re-inventing the wheel. Also this is the most time consuming option and ofcourse not every C(++) programmer is a hardcore *GL coder.

    - SDL 1.2
    Here you have basic user input, timers etc. But it is not a game engine.. and there is still a lot of complex *GL code to be written for a complete 3D game.

    - SDL 2
    Same as SDL 1.2 besides that the port is still under development. The current port has no 3D support yet.

    - Love2D
    Great engine, but targeted for 2D game development.

    - Antiryad Gx
    I think this is a good cross platform engine, but commercial...

    - Amidark engine
    Development ceased?

    - Encore game engine by Encore Games
    Closed source, nonavailable to public. I emailed them some time ago, with the request to open source their technology. But I haven't received an answer.

    Bottom line, there is no free open source 3D game engine currently available on MorphOS. Correct me if i'm wrong and this is the reason is started this bounty. I think Irrlight is a great engine and addition to the MorphOS community.

    I noticed SuperTuxKart uses Irrlight, but as all forums about this port are in German it's very hard to get some more information about it.


    [ Edited by Bastiaan 19.08.2016 - 17:47 ]
  • »19.08.16 - 13:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Is there anything preventing improvement of our current TinyGL support within MorphOS, to make porting of games and programs using newer versions of OpenGL possible, or at least easier?

    I purchased several programming books on OpenGL and 3D programming, but considering that I don't even count myself as a "real" programmer yet, it is highly doubtful that I will ever be up to the task of creating a better version of TinyGL, or any alternative 3D game engine.

    If Irrlight engine is not the best choice for better 3D engine, or improved TinyGL/OpenGL support for MorphOS, this thread is still useful for opening, or continuing a discussion about how 3D support within MorphOS can be improved.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »20.08.16 - 07:10
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  • Just looking around
    Bastiaan
    Posts: 18 from 2014/8/7
    From: Amsterdam, The...
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Is there anything preventing improvement of our current TinyGL support within MorphOS, to make porting of games and programs using newer versions of OpenGL possible, or at least easier?

    I purchased several programming books on OpenGL and 3D programming, but considering that I don't even count myself as a "real" programmer yet, it is highly doubtful that I will ever be up to the task of creating a better version of TinyGL, or any alternative 3D game engine.

    If Irrlight engine is not the best choice for better 3D engine, or improved TinyGL/OpenGL support for MorphOS, this thread is still useful for opening, or continuing a discussion about how 3D support within MorphOS can be improved.


    Hi Dave, if im not mistaken you are mixing 2 things up here :)

    Irrlight will not improve the possibilities of TinyGL in any form. TinyGL is MorphOS's own (OpenGL based) 3D Graphics library (API). Irrlight will only utilize that existing API.

    Irrlight can be seen as another big C(++) library that wraps around Open- or TinyGL which makes 3D programming a lot easier. For example loading 3D object from industry standard file formats or loading Quake maps etc. But there is also other common game functionality like collision detection, math functions, 2D GUI System, XML Parser etc.

    Having a good open source game library on MorphOS will make game programming more accessible to everybody.
  • »20.08.16 - 09:47
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Elric
    Posts: 52 from 2003/4/3
    From: Bretagne Lorient
    Hello!

    What about using the Blender Game stuff?
    I for now never used it but normaly it's operational... MakeHuman by the way too...

    MorphOSian salutations.
  • »20.08.16 - 18:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Bastiaan wrote:
    Hi Dave, if im not mistaken you are mixing 2 things up here :)

    Irrlight will not improve the possibilities of TinyGL in any form. TinyGL is MorphOS's own (OpenGL based) 3D Graphics library (API). Irrlight will only utilize that existing API.

    Irrlight can be seen as another big C(++) library that wraps around Open- or TinyGL which makes 3D programming a lot easier. For example loading 3D object from industry standard file formats or loading Quake maps etc. But there is also other common game functionality like collision detection, math functions, 2D GUI System, XML Parser etc.

    Having a good open source game library on MorphOS will make game programming more accessible to everybody.



    I should have been more clear in my previous post. I do realize that your suggestion does nothing to help improve TinyGL of MorphOS. Since it is a related discussion, I added the question of a possibility of improving TinyGL/OpenGL compatibility built into MorphOS. It would be nice if the OS itself, had more modern 3D support, by including more recent and more complete support of OpenGL. I should not have confused this thread with my question. Sorry
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »20.08.16 - 23:38
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 456 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Not to be all Doom and Gloom, but unless a game that uses Irrlicht is ported too, it will likely collect dust if it gets ported.
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »21.08.16 - 17:29
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 706 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Yes, the sense of BSzili is definitely not silly, and I'd agree let's find a game that is likely to be ported that uses it, and then consider porting it, once the game has been released as open source, as there is no point in doing so until then.

    Nice to have a plan, but not an ill thought out idea.
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  • »21.08.16 - 20:20
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 145 from 2004/11/18
    For me , now the shaders for tinygl is more important than porting a 3d engine. Shaders are needed in many games like sauerbraten doom3 or others which can be ported if tinygl provide shaders support.
  • »21.08.16 - 21:43
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 918 from 2004/9/23
    Porting such engine(s) makes only sense if there are enough games using it and if they are OpenSource.

    Sure some people scream I will make a game, but to be honest there are only a few people in the community capable of coding a 3D game from scratch even using such engine.

    We had alot of donated stuff in the past that is dusting and never was really used.

    I am not against porting such thing at all. It should just taken into account what the user gets from it at the end. One or Two games that maybe will ported sometime in the future is not something I would invest in.

    Better set a fixed goal like the engine and two games. So everyone spending money can know what to expect as result.
  • »22.08.16 - 10:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    For me , now the shaders for tinygl is more important than porting a 3d engine. Shaders are needed in many games like sauerbraten doom3 or others which can be ported if tinygl provide shaders support.


    I agree, but maybe this is a topic better discussed in a separate thread titled "How to improve TinyGL", or "Better OpenGL support for MorphOS".
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »22.08.16 - 16:33
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 145 from 2004/11/18
    Yes of course. :-) the way is to offer a such a machine to bigfoot :-)

    http://www.ouest-france.fr/normandie/bayeux-14400/un-distributeur-de-pizza-ouvert-rue-des-bouchers-3938399





    [ Edited by acepeg 24.08.2016 - 01:18 ]
  • »23.08.16 - 21:15
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4703 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Mark doesn't need help coming up with more projects.
    And better OpenGL support would be great, but you have to remember that while part of the name is "Open" there is still a licensing fee.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.16 - 23:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    Yes of course. :-) the way is to offer a such a machine to bigfoot :-)

    http://www.ouest-france.fr/normandie/bayeux-14400/un-distributeur-de-pizza-ouvert-rue-des-bouchers-3938399



    I don't understand what "offer such a machine" means in the above sentence. I am sure that Bigfoot already has many MorphOS capable machines, as well as x86/x64 systems, which allow him to work on any part of the existing PPC version of MorphOS, as well as the future x64 compatible version of MorphOS, and probably several different compatible video cards, to test out new 3D drivers, and/or improvements to TinyGL, or full support of a newer version of OpenGL.

    I have already donated and shipped to Bigfoot a G5 PowerMac (not sure it is still in use, as it might have had some problems after shipment to Africa from the USA, IIRC), and a good friend of mine, Jim, has donated several video cards to both Bigfoot, and Frank.

    That being said, I would be happy to donate more gear, or bounty money, toward the improvement of 3D support for MorphOS. Maybe if we are lucky, better 3D support will come with the x64 version of MorphOS, but those are two completely different and unrelated things.

    Edit: As for Pizza, I don't think that an automated Pizza machine that gives you a Pizza in 3 minutes, is something I would want to eat. It probably is full of preservatives and other things not healthy for you.

    [ Edited by amigadave 23.08.2016 - 18:31 ]
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  • »23.08.16 - 23:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I don't think that an automated Pizza machine that gives you a Pizza
    > in 3 minutes, is something I would want to eat.

    I wouldn't want to eat a Pizza machine either ;-)
  • »24.08.16 - 00:03
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4703 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I don't think that an automated Pizza machine that gives you a Pizza
    > in 3 minutes, is something I would want to eat.

    I wouldn't want to eat a Pizza machine either ;-)


    Wow, a joke from Andreas. ;)

    OK, if OpenGL 2.0 or ES support is possible, without paying a fee (calling it, I don't know...does it matter?), that would be a better direction to pursue.
    Game engine support would benefit from that.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.08.16 - 16:18
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > OpenGL 2.0 or ES

    OpenGL and OpenGL ES have separate version numbering. Current OpenGL is 4.5 from two years ago and current OpenGL ES is 3.2 from one year ago. While OpenGL ES 2.0 is short of a decade old, OpenGL 2.0 is 12 years old.
  • »24.08.16 - 17:53
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4703 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > OpenGL 2.0 or ES

    OpenGL and OpenGL ES have separate version numbering. Current OpenGL is 4.5 from two years ago and current OpenGL ES is 3.2 from one year ago. While OpenGL ES 2.0 is short of a decade old, OpenGL 2.0 is 12 years old.


    And tinyGL is a subset of older versions of OpenGL.
    Amazing that any of the porting done with it works.

    Am I right in assuming that ES is aimmed primarily at portable devices?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.08.16 - 18:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10063 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > tinyGL is a subset of older versions of OpenGL.

    Yes, basically of OpenGL 1.2 (1998), but as of MorphOS 3.8 with support for features like DXT3/DXT5 of OpenGL 1.3 (2001) and VBOs of OpenGL 1.4 or 1.5 (2002/2003).

    > Am I right in assuming that ES is aimmed primarily at portable devices?

    Yes, at "smartphones, computer tablets, video game consoles and PDAs" according to Wikipedia, or at "consoles, phones, appliances and vehicles" according to the official website.
  • »24.08.16 - 19:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 706 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote: I wouldn't want to eat a Pizza machine either ;-)

    WooHoo . . . :bloons: I too almost fell off my seat, that's made from an old Pizza, or is that just the staining ! Yuck :-D

    Anyway, way-to-go, kudos to you Andreas, get'em in there - the jokes that is!
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  • »25.08.16 - 03:08
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 145 from 2004/11/18
    Hey friends it was just a joke 😉. It's just because Bigfoot love pizzas.
  • »25.08.16 - 05:12
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