What you think...
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > FYI I was making an observation:
    > Sam 440 OTOH was the replacement to the A1 G4, a significant
    > reduction in performance - without an equivalent cost reduction.

    You were clearly referring to the announced OS4 netbook (not to any Sam) which can be seen from the context of your posting:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=8209&start=42

    > Efika is not an equivalent because, it was a low end, low cost machine.
    > It was never intended as a replacement to the Pegasos.

    True, and the OS4 netbook is not an equivalent to any previous OS4 hardware as it is supposed to be a low end, low cost (relative to previous OS4 hardware) and mobile machine (which the Efika 5200B btw is not). It is not intended as a replacement to any previous OS4 hardware. Can you see now why your comment on the OS4 netbook could only backfire?

    > If the new laptop is the Limebook with the 5121e, it'll be even slower
    > than the Sam440 so the slowest machine yet.

    As I already told you in my reply to your original posting, it will be faster than PowerUP Amigas. Of course, if we neglect the PowerUP Amigas then the Efika 5200B is the slowest machine for MorphOS yet. See the analogy?
  • »21.12.11 - 18:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Did anyone actually say it would definitely be out this year?
    > [...] Errr Andreas, link me till I barf!

    At your command:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8209&forum=3&start=12
  • »21.12.11 - 18:58
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Miky060,
    Quote:

    WHEN WILL IT BE OUT?????

    2nd half next week.
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »21.12.11 - 20:19
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Jambalah
    Posts: 820 from 2008/3/30
    From: Roma, Italy
    I'm really curious and, I confess, excited from incoming MorphOS version. I guess this one is a starting point, a new course for MorphOS. Like 2.0 version was.
    Pegasos II 1 ghz
    Powermac G4 Quicksilver with Sonnet Encore 1.8 ghz
    Powermac G4 MDD single 1.25 ghz, silenced for ears health...
    Powermac G5 dual 2.7 ghz I'll be back...
    Powermac G5 dual 2.0 ghz
    Powerbook G4 1.67 ghz 17
  • »21.12.11 - 20:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    Tell that to minator, not to me. He is the one who talked about those vapor products. I just replied to him. Moreover, we already *know* that an OS4 netbook (vapor or not) would be much less performant than the X1000 (or Pegasos II or Eyetech AmigaOne) the same way the Efika 5200B is much less performant than the Pegasos II, which was the previously released MorphOS hardware.


    Still, way more expensive than any MorphOS option.

    Quote:

    You forgot the X1000, which is a previous hardware to the OS4 netbook.


    AFAIK x1000 is not capable of playing decently videos so perhaps we should add it to the slow hardware list :-P (that's a joke, in case you don't understand it or try to isolate the phrase out of context to later provide links in other threads) Something that "exists" in less than 250Units is not much relevant anyway.

    Quote:

    Additionally, minator in his posting I replied to didn't say a single word about price but only about speed. So please refrain from moving the goalposts, thanks.


    I'm not "moving" any topic but writting about something very relevant to 90% computer hardware related discussions: price/performance ratio. And it was relevant (perhaps it depends on reader interpretation but I guess Minator will agree that price and performance are "slightly" related to the topic)

    Quote:

    And I stand by my claim that the OS4 netbook is supposed to be slower than the X1000 the same way the Efika 5200B is slower than the Pegasos II. You bringing the price into play is an unfair attempt at moving the goalposts as minator wasn't referring to the price point and neither was I in my response to him. So no, your comparison has nothing to do with the point minator was trying to make.


    "Unfair"? you like isolating phrases out of context and performing sofist arguments, don't you? bah!

    Quote:

    How does the fact that for instance the Sam440 is slower than the Peg2 negate my claim that minator's statement that "OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines that are slower than previous ones" (remember that this is what I replied to, nothing else) is nonsense especially when made in a MorphOS forum where everybody (except for newbies maybe) should know that the Efika 5200B was slower than the Peg2?


    Where have I "negated" your claim? Not everything is black or white. Comparing out of context Efika with that vaporware netbook is nonsense (or that alpha-beta-board produced in a handful of units). Comparing Peg2 (that costed less than a new Mac Mini but was not that far away in performance) with an x1000 (that is more expensive than almost every computer ) is nonsense.

    Quote:

    ...and it will get cheaper with the OS4 netbook, which is the hardware minator was referring to in his statement to which I replied.

    cheaper than x1000? wow! that must be really difficult :-P

    Quote:

    Please don't read your own fantasies into my posts and then make nonsensical assumptions about what I "honestly think", thanks


    Isolating phrases out of context is what is nonsense. The topic of this thread was about how much time we were going to wait until next MorphOS release, that was the goal, in your fantasy world perhaps you were discussing with your other personalities about certain isolated phrase, but I have to tell you that you are at morphzone discussing with humans in a MorphOS thread not an OS4 one.

    Quote:

    But all that price discussion is mute here anyway as that's not what minator and me were talking about


    just like performance because it's a MorphOS thread.

    Quote:

    as it doesn't change my whole point, which has been from the beginning and still is: minator's statement that "OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines that are slower than previous ones" is nonsense as proven by the fact the the Pegasos II was followed by the Efika 5200B.


    I respect your isolating-phrase mania, but remember we are at public forums, you were already offtopic and when you reply to a person you can add some extra information in favour/against certain argument but that doesn't mean you claim all the argument is true/false. Your bizantine/sofist discussions about isolated phrases out of context have no interest for me. I prefer google but I don't mind if you continue acting as human webcrawler/link provider
  • »21.12.11 - 21:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Still, way more expensive than any MorphOS option.

    True, but still not relevant in any way to minator's posting nor my response to it to which you replied.

    >>> It has a lot to do with the point Minator was discussing: OS4 hardware turns
    >>> both more expensive and slower(sam) than previous hardware (Peg2, A1)

    >> You forgot the X1000, which is a previous hardware to the OS4 netbook.

    > Something that "exists" in less than 250Units is not much relevant anyway.

    It is in terms of minator's claim to which I responded. But I understand that in your attempt at changing the topic of this sub-discussion, which you joined by replying to me, from performance alone to including price and now even unit numbers it helps you to regard the X1000 as "not much relevant anyway".

    >> Additionally, minator in his posting I replied to didn't say a single word
    >> about price but only about speed. So please refrain from moving the
    >> goalposts, thanks.

    > I'm not "moving" any topic

    You are. Minator made a claim regarding performance alone, which I then refuted using the very same performance argument he had used. You then joined this sub-thread attempting to disagree with what I wrote (see your "Do you honestly think that..." phrase) by changing the argument from performance alone to price (and price-performance ratio), when all you replied to was me saying that the OS4 netbook will be to current OS4 hardware what the Efika 5200B has been to the Pegasos II, so that minator's "OS4 must be the only platform that..." claim is revealed as the nonsense it is, especially when made on a MorphOS forum. So *your* reply to me was sophistry at its best.

    > but writting about something very relevant to 90% computer hardware related
    > discussions: price/performance ratio. And it was relevant

    It was *not relevant* to the posting you replied to and to the sub-discussion you joined by giving your reply. Is it that hard to grasp? Neither minator nor me were talking about anything that includes the topic of price.

    > I guess Minator will agree that price and performance are "slightly" related
    > to the topic

    Performance yes, obviously, but price was not related to his posting I replied to. You can see that by simply reading his posting. Did you read it?

    > "Unfair"?

    Yes, I consider changing the topic of a discussion just to attempt to disagree with someone (that is, "disagreeing" on something he wrote nothing about) unfair and an act of sophistry.

    > you like isolating phrases out of context

    I don't think so.

    > and performing sofist arguments, don't you? bah!

    It's almost funny that you impute performing sophist arguments to me when you are the true sophist here. And yes, that's very much "bah".

    > Where have I "negated" your claim?

    Your out of place "Do you honestly think..." phrase clearly shows that you somehow attempted to disagree with what I wrote, doesn't it? And when all I wrote was that claim then you must have attempted to disagree with that claim exactly as there was nothing else you could have replied to there.

    > Comparing out of context Efika with that vaporware netbook is nonsense

    Yes, that would be nonsense, hence I did it in context (the context being given by minator's posting to which I replied).

    > or that alpha-beta-board produced in a handful of units

    I didn't compare the Efika 5200B to the X1000.

    > Comparing Peg2 [...] with an x1000 [...] is nonsense.

    No, it's not in the very context of minator's posting. Maybe you should read it for once?

    >>> and in addition to that more expensive). More expensive (x1000).

    >> ...and it will get cheaper with the OS4 netbook, which is the hardware
    >> minator was referring to in his statement to which I replied.

    > cheaper than x1000? wow! that must be really difficult :-P

    Moving the goalposts and thus sophistry again. I didn't say it was difficult but just that it's wrong to say that there won't be any cheaper OS4 hardware. That would be as nonsensical and untrue as claiming that the Efika 5200B was more expensive than the Pegasos II.

    > Isolating phrases out of context is what is nonsense.

    True. That's why I don't do such.

    > The topic of this thread was about how much time we were going to wait
    > until next MorphOS release

    I'm sorry but that was clearly *not* the topic of minator's post to which I replied. Obviously this thread went off-topic way before, so please don't hold me liable for that. I was merely replying to a post in this thread in the context of said post. If that post was already off-topic then it's clearly not my fault.

    > in your fantasy world perhaps you were discussing with your
    > other personalities about certain isolated phrase

    Bollocks. Minator is clearly *not* any personality of mine.

    > I have to tell you that you are at morphzone discussing with humans

    I know that. And I know that minator is a human being and not just a split personality of myself as you seem to imply.

    > in a MorphOS thread not an OS4 one.

    Blame amigadave for bringing OS4 into this MorphOS thread, not me.

    > just like performance because it's a MorphOS thread.

    This thread stopped being a pure MorphOS thread by no later than amigadave bringing OS4 into it (see above for reference). The topic of performance was then brought into this thread by minator, again not by me. If you really want to blame someone for starting off-topic sub-dicussions in this MorphOS thread then please blame the ones who actually did.

    > remember we are at public forums

    What makes you think I forgot this? I'm merely replying with public postings to others' public postings.

    > you were already offtopic

    I replied to postings in the context of those postings, i.e. on-topic to those postings. If my replies were off-topic to this thread, so were the postings I merely replied to in the first place. You blaming me for off-topic here would be as nonsensical as me blaming you for it.

    > when you reply to a person you can add some extra information in
    > favour/against certain argument but that doesn't mean you claim all
    > the argument is true/false.

    Your reply to my posting (where I was responding to minator) was not in favour/against any of my arguments you replied to as it didn't even contextually touch the single one argument that was in my posting. Even your sophistic "Do you honestly think that..." phrase couldn't change that.

    > Your bizantine/sofist discussions

    I don't know about "bizantine", but "sofist" is really rich coming from you seeing how you attempt to bring sophistry to perfection right in this thread.
  • »21.12.11 - 23:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > No one's seen anything of this G5 version since the demo, again years ago.

    Actually, the latest we have seen from MorphOS on G5 were these screenshots from less than a year ago.
  • »22.12.11 - 00:44
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  • MorphOS Developer
    cyfm
    Posts: 537 from 2003/4/11
    From: Germany
    Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately. So better don't hold your breath for a release next week ...
  • »22.12.11 - 00:58
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 663 from 2004/2/10
    pega-1,

    Thanks Pega for the update, I really appreciate you disclosing it.

    Great job to great developers.

    Cheers and Merry Christmas to you Pega and all the MOS developers!

    Matt
  • »22.12.11 - 01:09
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Megander
    Posts: 85 from 2011/11/28
    pega-1,
    Quote:

    Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately.

    Looks like my guess "When it's done" was indeed very close.
  • »22.12.11 - 05:04
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    pega-1,
    Quote:

    Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately. So better don't hold your breath for a release next week ...



    Shit! :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(


    Ealy 2012? When common people will have finished all the money that usually is much available to spend on December.. MorphOS Team actually losed an opportunity to do some more money in my modest opinion. I'm disappointed.

    [ Edited by Miky060 22.12.2011 - 08:16 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »22.12.11 - 08:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 167 from 2004/1/6
    I just got my MOS machine so I don't mind waiting for MOS3 to come out. Actually it may be even better that way so it doesn't "ruin" my Christmas holidays if you know what you mean :)
  • »22.12.11 - 08:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @pega-1
    Quote:

    Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately. So better don't hold your breath for a release next week ...


    That's OK with me. Better to test it thoroughly and release a good quality product than releasing some untested crap that borks your system and force you to downgrade to earlier versions (like the "competition" has a habit of doing). I understand that Powerbook users are eager to be able to use their machines, but for the rest of us, MorphOS 2.7 is really polished, so it's not like there is an emergency here. :-)

    And may I also suggest that you wait for the new panels/dock system to be fully developed and tested as well? Not much development (if anything at all) has been put into this feature since MorphOS 1.x days. I think this is a very central GUI/User Experience feature, and currently it is the weakest spot of the Ambient GUI. I think it would be *embarrassing* to go into the 3.x level with this feature still on early 1.x levels...

    Hmm, maybe the wait will mean that some stuff like the IceFS will make it as well? ;-) :-)

    And since you will make Grunch a standard component of the OS: How about making MorphOS itself (and its components) part of it, and make full use of it? :-) That way you should be able to easily release whatever hotfixes to certain individual OS components and files in a nice and clean way (and have it distributed to the entire population) *after* the 3.0 release, should you have any need for it... :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »22.12.11 - 10:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 167 from 2004/1/6
    I agree regarding to Grunch, but I have talked to the developer (Geit) but he said he cannot implement it in time.
  • »22.12.11 - 11:07
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2240 from 2003/2/24
    takemehomegrandma,
    Quote:

    And may I also suggest that you wait for the new panels/dock system to be fully developed and tested as well?


    Since the "cat is out of the sack" regarding the 3.0 delay.....

    I'm pretty much finished with "my" Ambient and the rest of the polishing will happen this year but I have no way of knowing how long intregration and testing with 3.0 will take or if it's allready closed for new features.

    So expect that feature either with or shortly after the 3.0 release (or just use it right now if you know the super-secret address to my betas).

    /me hasn't heard a single complaint since uploading last one 3 days ago, so either it's bug-free or everyone has given up on it :-o
  • »22.12.11 - 11:40
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    takemehomegrandma,
    Quote:

    @pega-1
    Quote:

    Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately. So better don't hold your breath for a release next week ...


    That's OK with me. Better to test it thoroughly and release a good quality product than releasing some untested crap that borks your system and force you to downgrade to earlier versions (like the "competition" has a habit of doing).



    I agree with this theory too, but it was intended that for december the 3.0 should have "already" been long tested since times and released. At the end of the story we're wayting for it for a year and at a certain point it SEEMED it was to be released (at that time it was still called "2.8") at this summer, than it was explained it would have happened after the summer and than officially stated it would have been released this year but not before December. Now, "IF" wayting more means that we'll have also other important stuff that many of us are waiting for (like 3D for Radeon9700) so it's ok for me too. But if it does mean that we will have in 2012 just what we were expecting for december 2011 I'm not so happy if I have to be sincere.
    Don't kill me to say what I think, this does not mean that I do not have respect for all the big efforts and work that MorphOS developers do, they are my heroes, and I am grateful to them to give us of the best OSes around. I'm just a bit disappointed for this delay (..that is also announced only now, few days before the end of December..)
    I am also still convinced about what I already said: they lost an opportunity to do much money "soon" with the new registrations: on Christmas Holidays people are much more available to spend money than "after holidays", I hope you understand what I mean.. Registrations will come for sure even in 2012 but IN MY OPINION it will be a slower process.
    Good work to Mos Team and happy holydays to all.

    [ Edited by Miky060 22.12.2011 - 14:38 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »22.12.11 - 14:30
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Henes
    Posts: 507 from 2003/6/14
    @Miky060

    I invite you to re-read this morphzone posts. This was some sort of announcement/wishlist but no release date was set in stone and published.
    I'm really sorry if you imagined MorphOS 3.0 would be your christmas present. And I believe cyfm was right to notice these wishful thinking and stop them as early as possible.

    About the money part... well, what can I say except probably nobody thought about this point... I guess I can speak for the team by telling this is not what is driving MorphOS development.

    On the same topic, I think I also read somebody/somewhere believing 3.0 will come with G5 support or some other giant thing which was not announced... This clearly won't happen and, as announced, there was absolutly zero work done on G5 support for a long time.
  • »22.12.11 - 19:41
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    @Miky060

    I understand your frustration and I am also part of that problem atm. Due to some unfortunate events I could'nt predict I can't use my MorphOS development machines now and commit any work to MorphOS for a while. That is, someone else must finish my work when I am away from development.

    It is frustrating to me also since I planned to fix SDL and release it ASAP but it has to wait, too.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »22.12.11 - 19:47
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @ itix

    Shit happens...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »22.12.11 - 20:12
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1061 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    I was waiting for December release but I prefer waiting few more weeks or months to have propely polished and ready to go product so imo: go MorphOS Team :) We can wait few more days.
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »22.12.11 - 20:12
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Henes,
    Quote:

    About the money part... well, what can I say except probably nobody thought about this point... I guess I can speak for the team by telling this is not what is driving MorphOS development.


    I perfectly know that money is not what drive you all. You can't gain so much money with MOS development to live with it. I TOTALLY appreciate your efforts and dedication to MorphOS development. At the same time I think that if the 3.0 would have been released at December you would have gained many registrations 'cause people on Christams is more available to spend money and usually have some more bucks in their wallets and I would be happy for you all, because I believe you deserve our money! I hope you understand what I say.





    Henes,
    Quote:

    On the same topic, I think I also read somebody/somewhere believing 3.0 will come with G5 support or some other giant thing which was not announced...


    Not me.
    I perfectly know that (and this is sad in MY POINT OF VIEW) that really few/zero development has been done on G5 support


    I hope that writing our own opinions about some topics (like "I am not happy that the 3.0 will not be out before the end of 2011") will not make us (me in this case) a bad boy. Maybe saying "if you need more time for me it's perfectly ok" "take all the time you need, I'm ok with the 2.7" is more popular and nice, but if they are not my thoughts I can't say this even it can make me unpleasant. This not mean I do have not respect in your work, I'm just disappointed by this news and a bit sad. I'll live the same and I'll continue to appreciate MorphOS developers efforts :-)


    @itix
    I don't know your problems and I'm sincerely sorry for it. I really hope you'll solve your issues soon.

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »22.12.11 - 20:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2794 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Most people around the Holidays (Christmas if they celebrate it) have less money to spend on their own hobbies, as they have spent their money on family and friends for presents. So I strongly disagree that the MorphOS Team has missed any opportunity.

    As for being disappointed and expecting more work to be done, such as work on the 3D drivers for the Radeon 9700 inside the G4 PowerBooks, that is not realistic. That is like assuming that the delay is for some other reason than the fact that work on the original items to be included in 3.0 is not finished. Unless of course the person(s) working on the 3D drivers are not needed for the remaining work on other items that need finishing prior to MorphOS3.0 being released, then perhaps there is a chance that the 3D drivers can be completed along side the completion of any other items in 3.0 that need polishing before MorphOS3.0 can be released.

    Be patient, if there is a delay in the release of MorphOS3.0, there is also a good reason for it. One of the strengths of the MorphOS Dev. Team is that they do not release buggy, unfinished versions (though no OS release from anyone is perfect and without need of some fixes).

    As someone who was fortunate enough to be allowed to show a beta version of MorphOS3.0 on my G4 PowerBook's, I can confirm that more work on it was required before it could be released to the general public. The version I received in October was very good, but still needed the final polishing to make it ready for release.

    Be patient and remember the MorphOS Dev. Team has made good choices in all of their previous releases and will not change their course now.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »22.12.11 - 21:53
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 746 from 2007/4/22
    pega-1,

    Thanks for the update.
  • »22.12.11 - 22:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > no release date was set in stone and published.

    That has been my impression as well but 9 days ago MorphOS Team member Krashan said to my surprise that the 2011 release date had been officially stated:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=8209&start=61
  • »22.12.11 - 22:56
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 746 from 2007/4/22
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:



    > no release date was set in stone and published.

    That has been my impression as well but 9 days ago MorphOS Team member Krashan said to my surprise that the 2011 release date had been officially stated:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34751&forum=46#642667



    Fixed it for you.
  • »22.12.11 - 23:16
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