MorphOS 2.8 confirmed features
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >Yeah 2.8 is great for mac hw users lol... I'd rather see more OS features and ports (java, flash, cairo hw accel, office apps, etc etc)

    Java and Flash are closed/proprietary products that are difficult to emulate. An office package would be nice (heck I'd settle for a good word processor).
    Some form of acceleration would be useful, but I'm not sure about Cairo.
    More complete support of OpenGL would also be a bonus.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.08.11 - 00:42
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11704 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Java and Flash are closed/proprietary products that are
    > difficult to emulate.

    Seems you've missed some things. SUN's Java was open sourced as long as 4 years ago:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenJDK
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IcedTea
    http://openjdk.java.net
    http://icedtea.classpath.org

    And Adobe's Flash, while not being open sourced, got most if its specs published starting 3 years ago, which has helped projects like Gnash and Lightspark evolve:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Open_Screen_Project
    http://www.openscreenproject.org
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7395&forum=11&start=8

    Regarding Java for AmigaOS/MorphOS:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7137&forum=9&start=12
    http://jamiga2.blogspot.com/2011/07/jamiga-team.html (from 3 weeks ago)
  • »08.08.11 - 01:38
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    No Andreas, I wasn't aware that they had opened up Java. That's great news. Its a bit messy, but useful.

    (...just checked out the jamiga2 site. Looks more then a little rough).

    Flash, on the other hand, well I haven't seen a really good clone of it yet.

    There was one floating around for 64bit OS' a while back, but for some reason it got pull (thought I had a copy archived somewhere, but I'm having trouble finding it).

    I still don't understand why we don't have a fairly good word processor. This is not a demanding type of app. I've been using them for decades.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.08.11 - 01:55
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    @Jim

    Just FYI, a Flash plugin based on swfdec is available on MorphOS. It's roughly equivalent to Gnash in terms of speed and compatibility (sometimes better, sometimes worse). The main drawback is it's not developed anymore, but in the current state, Gnash wouldn't give better results.
  • »08.08.11 - 02:36
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11704 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > That's great news.

    Rather "olds" ;-)

    > Its a bit messy

    How so?

    > There was one floating around for 64bit OS' a while back

    Adobe Flash has been officially available as 64-bit since September 2010 (and experimental version since November 2008):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#64-bit_support

    > I still don't understand why we don't have a fairly good
    > word processor. This is not a demanding type of app. I've
    > been using them for decades.

    Yes, using such application is certainly less demanding than creating it ;-)
  • »08.08.11 - 02:50
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11704 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > swfdec is [...] roughly equivalent to Gnash in terms of [...] compatibility [...]
    > in the current state, Gnash wouldn't give better results.

    The last Swfdec version is 0.8.4 from December 2008. Since then, Gnash went from 0.8.4 (what a coincidence) to 0.8.9 in March 2011. I can't really believe that Gnash hasn't generally improved in compatibility over the stalled Swfdec project.
    Btw, what about replacing Swfdec by Lightspark? Still an option? It seems Lightspark and Gnash go hand in hand these days with Lightspark executing ActionScript 3 and falling back to Gnash for execution of ActionScript 1 and 2.
  • »08.08.11 - 03:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    Yeah 2.8 is great for mac hw users lol... I'd rather see more OS features and ports (java, flash, cairo hw accel, office apps, etc etc)


    I don't. MorphOS is not a Linux distro that fills 8GB of your HD with all sort of apps the user may not need. Web Browser is included, the user could download what he needs from internet. It's not mandatory that MOS-Team produces all the apps you want, these can be done by 3rd party authors.

    Cairo would be nice for OWB but I don't see that happenning anytime soon

    Office??? that should not come with the operating system.

    Both Java and Flash suck. Java apps are badly integrated, eat tons of ram and are slow (and even slower without JIT). Flash is both slow and propietary and MOS-Team shouldn't waste a minute of their time reverse engineering it. You have sucky projects like Gnash that take care of that

    Having a PowerBook version is much more important for a lot of users because there's no mobile MorphOS machine right now. G5 support would be nice although it's less prioritary IMHO.

    If you want apps learn to code or if you know how to code start coding. It's not MorphOS-Team task to create all sort of apps. They provide the basis to build apps, they don't have to provide an OS suite.
  • »08.08.11 - 08:07
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    You're right about that. Unfortunatly it makes you wonder who actually is going to write usefull software anytime soon.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »08.08.11 - 08:24
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11704 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Flash is [...] propietary and MOS-Team shouldn't waste a minute of their time
    > reverse engineering it. You have sucky projects like Gnash that take care of that

    I think by wishing for a port of Flash he didn't mean the MorphOS Team to reverse engineer the original Adobe Flash but instead "just" port already reverse engineered projects like Gnash and Lightspark, in a way Fab did already with old Swfdec. If he really meant what you think he did though I'd second your objection that this would be an outright silly waste of resources.
  • »08.08.11 - 08:41
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    Quote:


    The last Swfdec version is 0.8.4 from December 2008. Since then, Gnash went from 0.8.4 (what a coincidence) to 0.8.9 in March 2011. I can't really believe that Gnash hasn't generally improved in compatibility over the stalled Swfdec project.
    Btw, what about replacing Swfdec by Lightspark? Still an option? It seems Lightspark and Gnash go hand in hand these days with Lightspark executing ActionScript 3 and falling back to Gnash for execution of ActionScript 1 and 2.



    Well, Gnash has evolved rather slowly, and it also had to catch up with swfdec in the first place. As it is now, Gnash support is still not very convincing (as i said, some things will run in Gnash and not in swfdec, and vice versa).

    As for lightspark, it's much more promising, but it also relies on recent OpenGL features like shaders, buffer and so on to work (which explains why it's faster, along with its JIT). I actually had a look at lightspark sources, and besides this blocking GL issue, it would look quite portable. But imo, it's not worth porting until lightspark supports older flash correctly as well, because the fallback to gnash thing is quite messy.
  • »08.08.11 - 09:47
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11704 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > lightspark [...] relies on recent OpenGL features like shaders, buffer and so
    > on to work [...]. I actually had a look at lightspark sources, and besides this
    > blocking GL issue, it would look quite portable. But imo, it's not worth porting
    > until lightspark supports older flash correctly as well, because the fallback to
    > gnash thing is quite messy.

    Thanks for explanation.
  • »08.08.11 - 10:20
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
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    Yes, this thread has been most educational.

    For example, I wasn't aware of the fact that while 32-bit Flash was included in most Linux distros it could be replaced by 64-bit Flash by the users (until Andreas posted his links). And until Fab explained why Flash support hadn't been updated, I was not aware that incorporating newer code (like lightspark) would be so problematic.

    That only leaves improved OpenGL support and a word processor (on my wish list)

    One quick question.
    Will MOS2.8 be able to boot from SCSI or SATA controllers or will these drive only work after booting from PATA?

    [ Edited by Jim 08.08.2011 - 18:51 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.08.11 - 17:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    I also want to like to know more about SATA support. I understood well, MorhpOS on Powermac wouldn't even work with one of these cards installed ? Or can I already use such a card now with MacOSX on it ?

    Reason I ask is that I want to learn more about MacOSX before I buy an Intel one and replace my now 6 years old windowsXP box that doesn't want to run windows7 because a certain nvidia chipset isn't supported ( it already wasn't in Vista ). So it would be fine I can put Leopard on a SATA drive without touching the drives I use for MorphOS.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »08.08.11 - 19:41
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Divinity
    Posts: 498 from 2009/9/8
    Oepabakkes,
    Quote:

    I also want to like to know more about SATA support. I understood well, MorhpOS on Powermac wouldn't even work with one of these cards installed ?


    probably the SCSI/SATA adapters here http://morphos.de/hardware.html will be usable in PowerMac G4 in MorphOS2.8 (atm these adapters are usable in Pegasos)
    I use atm a SATA card iSiI3x1x (but I have some problems) and a SCSI card Symbios 89x (sometimes also problems) in Pegasos2.

    Quote:


    Or can I already use such a card now with MacOSX on it ?


    In the PowerMac FW800 G4 I use atm a very good Adaptec card ; here as seen in pciscan in MorphOS2.7:
    Vendor 0x9005 <Adaptec> Device 0x10 <AHA-2940U2B SCSI Controller>
    This very good card is perfect in OSX Leopard 10.5.8 and OSX Tiger 10.4.x (not supported in MorphOS2.x)

    Quote:


    So it would be fine I can put Leopard on a SATA drive without touching the drives I use for MorphOS.


    In a PowerMac MDD and FW800 there is an ATA100 (also an ATA66 and ATA33), well I use a very good HD WD 500gb PATA and I have 60Mb/s throughput :) ;) ,so no useful to use (my opinion) a SATA bootstrap HD ; I also use the very good YABOOT for MorphOS2.x, Leopard OSX, Tiger OSX, Panther OSX and Linux Debian ... all in these OS in one HD 500gb :)
    here a guide about YABOOT if interested http://www.nonsoloamiga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=106

    In a PowerMac AGP graphics, gigabit ethernet, quicksilver 2001/2002 It could be useful to use an HD SATA via SATA adapter (ATA inside is only ATA66), this is my opinion.
    Sonnet has/had good SATA controller for PowerMac, Tempo SATA controller models ( look at here for exemple http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=284#position_content ) usable in OSX


    [ Edited by Divinity 08.08.2011 - 22:13 ]
  • »08.08.11 - 20:32
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Divinity
    Posts: 498 from 2009/9/8
    Jim,
    Quote:

    Will MOS2.8 be able to boot from SCSI or SATA controllers or will these drive only work after booting from PATA?


    not useful SCSI HD bootable ... but yes you can bootstrap from HD SCSI and SATA, but the kernel need to be in a "bootable"/viewable unit for the OpenFirmware (in Macintosh) and for SmartFirmware (in PegasosI/II and Efika)
    For exemple you can have an hd PATA in a Mac (with inside the MorphOS kernel boot.img, bootinfo.txt) and a bootable SFS partition in a HD SCSI or SATA (if SCSI and SATA host adapters supported in MorphOS2.x)


    [ Edited by Divinity 08.08.2011 - 21:41 ]
  • »08.08.11 - 20:39
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2099 from 2003/2/24
    Just a sidenote:
    Macs CAN boot from PCI-devices (if these have an OF-BIOS onboard). My 2x1.8 QS came with an 400GB IDE HD connected too an ATA133+2SATA PCI card and it booted OSX just damn fine.

    [ Edited by Kronos 09.08.2011 - 00:22 ]
  • »08.08.11 - 22:20
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
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    Thanks Kronos. That's an interesting option.
    What controller are you using?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.08.11 - 23:34
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    Kronos
    Posts: 2099 from 2003/2/24
    The onboard one as the combo-card is not supported by MorphOS (and probraly will never be).

    O.k. I could have put the boot.img and maybe an ISO-file of the MorphOS-CD to claim some level of booting from SATA ...

    AFAIK there is only one out of the box Mac and MorphOS (2.8) compatible outthere (made by Sonnet and hard to find).

    Cheap PC cards with the right chip should work (once you found a way to load boot.img from another device) and some of those might even be reflashed to work directly.

    Just wait for 2.8 and see what the otions are...
  • »09.08.11 - 00:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    analogkid
    Posts: 626 from 2004/11/3
    From: near myself
    To be precise, it's this one:

    http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempo_serial_ata.html

    It's a two-port card with a Sil3112 controller...

    Mine is waiting for its use in my Powermac G4...
  • »09.08.11 - 05:07
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    dIGIMAN
    Posts: 273 from 2005/11/7
    Why that complicated?

    I never booted from hd with my powermac from the beginning.
    I am using a dedicated usb key with the boot.img on it. The leaves
    open which i boot next, if supported or not :)
  • »09.08.11 - 06:06
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    What hard to find card ? Sonnet still sells it and I found 4 on Ebay ... but they between 80 Dollar and 80 Euro without shipping. Well if it that is what it takes to run Leopard without touching the MorphOS hd's on the internal port and I guess it keeps a certain value.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »09.08.11 - 07:48
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    analogkid
    Posts: 626 from 2004/11/3
    From: near myself
    @Oepabakkes

    Well, "hard to find" is often connected to the price you are able or willing to pay... I think in this case Kronos meant a SATA card for a reasonable price, or as a complete Powermac G4 package (e.g. with CPU-card, advanced Radeon card etc.).
  • »09.08.11 - 08:10
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    Understandable, but when was Amiga computing ever cheap if you talk about new hardware ? Even old vintage hardware is sometimes worth VERY good money.

    About this card: Sonnet is quality and the price at Sonnet's shop is reasonable for people in the USA -I think- and in Euro's +/- 57 Euro. But at the German Ebay it's horrible 80 euro + shipping 20 euro. Ouch.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »09.08.11 - 15:11
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1184 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    when was Amiga computing ever cheap if you talk about new hardware?


    Like... in1985? When you could get a A1000 with monitor for 1595$ while Apple Macintosh costed 2,5 grand, and the IBM PC Junior (64 KB of RAM, one 5,25 floppy and no monitor) costed 1300$ ?
  • »09.08.11 - 15:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
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    1595$ wasn't exactly cheap 26 years ago. A C64, that was cheap in 1985.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »09.08.11 - 16:26
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