ARM for the future?
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10540 from 2003/5/22
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    > Probably Consoles as well.

    "01net also claims to know some of the technical specifications of the new console (translation from Develop): 'CPU is custom IBM PowerPC with three cores [...]'"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Caf%C3%A9#April_2011

    > all applications that's left for it is in various boring embedded gadgets and cars.

    You forgot gaming consoles, servers and supercomputers. Power Architecture is still big there currently. Whether ARM(64) will supersede PPC(64) there remains to be seen.
  • »12.05.11 - 13:36
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    64bit ARM is about two years into the future, Current ARM processors, in their current state of development, still aren't as powerful as PPCs.
    Where the future will lead is anyone's guess, but for the time being ARM is no threat to PPCs or X86 processors.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.05.11 - 15:06
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2583 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    "01net also claims to know some of the technical specifications of the new console (translation from Develop): 'CPU is custom IBM PowerPC with three cores [...]'"


    Could very well be that also the next generations of game consoles will be based on some PPC derivate one more time, nobody really knows until it gets public. Rumors about everything are everywhere. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Microsoft and nVidia already have something ARM-based cooking for the new Xbox though. And why not a Xbox handheld as well while you're at it, using the same ISA, with all the latest wireless stuff included...?

    Quote:

    You forgot gaming consoles, servers and supercomputers. Power Architecture is still big there currently. Whether ARM(64) will supersede Power Architecture there remains to be seen.


    And in the context of this thread (if ARM would be where MorphOS could go now that there are (and won't be) no more suitable PPC HW), it's completely irrelevant. Likewise in the context of Crumb's post to which I replied. *I know* that PPC and Power are still used today. But denying the fast expansion of ARM and the buzz surrounding it because of PPC still being used doesn't make sense. Crumb dismissed nVidia's chiefs words ("ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers.") as propaganda, and said that PPC is big in cars and consoles (none being an area addressed by Jen-Hsun Huang's statement) and PC's (Huh?! Where?) and Servers (Well, at least the POWER CPU's still have a market share for certain server segments) today. OK, but *it won't* compete with ARM in mobile devices, and neither will x86. Thus I think Jen-Hsun Huang's words may hold ground and shouldn't be dismissed as "propaganda" quite so easily; he may actually know what he is talking about regarding his own product development; if he says they will release CPU's that will compete with x86 in PC, server and supercomputer markets, chances are kind of good that they will do just that. If so, that would make his statement quite true, right?
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  • »12.05.11 - 15:51
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > nobody really knows until it gets public.

    Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to convey. You say the next generation gaming consoles probably won't be based on PPC whereas others claim to know the Wii's successor will be based on PPC. We'll know more about that in less than 4 weeks time.

    > why not a Xbox handheld as well while you're at it, using the
    > same ISA, with all the latest wireless stuff included...?

    I'm not aware of any announcements or even rumours regarding an "Xbox handheld". Wait, you just started it ;-)

    > in the context of this thread [...] it's completely irrelevant.

    Yes, as irrelevant as "boring embedded gadgets and cars". Yet you mentioned it. I just corrected you on your claim regarding "all applications that's left for" PPC as you swept three of the true applications Crumb mentioned under the table.

    > Likewise in the context of Crumb's post to which I replied.

    ...and claimed that of the applications he mentioned only "boring embedded gadgets and cars" were "all applications that's left for" PPC.

    > denying the fast expansion of ARM and the buzz surrounding
    > it because of PPC still being used doesn't make sense.

    Yes, that's why I don't do this.

    > Crumb [...] said that PPC is big in cars and consoles [...]
    > and PC's [...] and Servers [...] today.

    ...and supercomputers ;-)

    > If so, that would make his statement quite true, right?

    Yes, it's just that I neither responded to Huang's statement nor to Crumb's response to Huang's statement but to your incorrect claim about "all applications that's left for" PPC.
  • »12.05.11 - 16:56
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2583 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    64bit ARM is about two years into the future


    Well, "the future" is kind of the essence of this thread, not the past, not the current! ;-)

    Quote:

    Current ARM processors, in their current state of development, still aren't as powerful as PPCs.


    Nobody has ever claimed that there aren't faster PPC CPU's than what's currently available from ARM, but I actually think my Efika MX would kick at least Sam440's butt. Especially so when they get the SW properly tuned. There are numerous other PPC CPU's that certainly would get a fight as well. And does Cortex A9 (multi core (up to 4), 2GHz+) count as "current"? Well, at least there are products out based on the Tegra 2, and Apple has its A5 used in iPad 2, both will probably put a great deal of PPC CPU's to shame.

    Nobody is building consumer products based on PPC anymore that you could surf on, chat on, use e-mail on, edit your photos on, etc. There are no more PPC PC's or laptops. I have two ARM based devices in my possession (Efika MX Smartbook, and Smarttop) who both does that just fine. And look how well Windows 8 and MS Office performs on *current* (not future) ARM HW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKc_XGuvNIk (FF to 1:10 into the clip)

    Quote:

    Where the future will lead is anyone's guess, but for the time being ARM is no threat to PPCs or X86 processors.


    ...currently no (and neither PPC nor x86 is currently no threat to ARM processors), but point is, ARM *will* challenge x86 on its traditional markets (it will kind of start with the release of Windows 8, not with the release of "Denver"/"Tegra 5"), and frankly, I have very difficult to see x86 challenge ARM on its traditional markets. And this is what Jen-Hsun Huang says; ~ "ARM will be the only CPU that will exist in *all* those segments".
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  • »12.05.11 - 16:57
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > I actually think my Efika MX would kick at least Sam440's butt.

    Rather than guessing why not perform some benchmark tests between your 800 MHz Efika MX and an 800 MHz Sam440? I'd be interested in the results. But mind you, the Cortex-A8 is just an in-order execution core whereas the PPC440 can operate out-of-order.

    > There are numerous other PPC CPU's that certainly would get a fight as well.

    Of course. Current PPCs scale from as low as 40 MHz ;-)

    > Nobody is building consumer products based on PPC anymore
    > that you could surf on, chat on, use e-mail on, edit your photos
    > on, etc. There are no more PPC PC's or laptops.

    THTF/MTC ceased production of LimePC devices based on PPC? I ask because they still offer those in their web stores:
    http://www.iseeuon.com/web/shop/shop.php?app=goods&goods_id=14
    http://www.iseeuon.com/web/shop/shop.php?app=goods&goods_id=15
    http://www.thtfit.com/cpe/shop.php?app=goods&goods_id=14
    http://www.thtfit.com/cpe/shop.php?app=goods&goods_id=15

    And also Cherrypal:
    https://www.cherrypal.com/secure/product_info.php?products_id=1
  • »12.05.11 - 17:41
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2583 from 2003/2/24
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Just out of curiosity about your own personal opinion (since you obviously travels the net to collect facts about so many things):

    Which one of PPC and ARM do *you* think has the brightest future (in a 5-10 year perspective)?

    What option do you think would be the best for MorphOS, provided the developers wants to keep going for another 5-10 years:
    1) Stay forever on PPC
    2) Migrate to ARM (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)
    3) Migrate to x86 (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
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  • »12.05.11 - 18:07
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    takemehomegrandma
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    Quote:

    Of course. Current PPCs scale from as low as 40 MHz ;-)


    Which kind of was my point - there are a great deal of flavors of *current* PPC and ARM chips, and since not all of them (in fact, not a single one of them) has the ambition to be the fastest CPU on the planet, but rather be a suitable solution for a certain application, then Jim's statement that "Current ARM processors, in their current state of development, still aren't as powerful as PPCs" doesn't really hold ground; there are *many* areas where *current* ARM CPU's can (and does) compete with *current* PPC CPU's, of which the CPU used in LimePC is a very good example of! Genesi jumped to i.MX as soon as their LimePC developments with THTF crashed and burned, and I don't think they have regretted that one single second. The i.MX family has long lasting road map, the "mobileGT" kind of reached its end station there and then (in the context we are speaking about at least); if more CPU's will follow in that series, they probably *won't* be anything you could use to make a "LimePC 2" of. If a new version of "LimePC" will follow, it will definitely be based on ARM, not PPC... :-)
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  • »12.05.11 - 18:29
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10540 from 2003/5/22
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    > (in fact, not a single one of them) has the ambition
    > to be the fastest CPU on the planet

    One could get the impression that POWER7 is very close wouldn't it have strong in-house competition from z196 ;-)

    > Jim's statement that "Current ARM processors, in their current state of
    > development, still aren't as powerful as PPCs" doesn't really hold ground

    Yes, a fair comparison is not that trivial. Best performing ARM processors currently are based on cores implementing ARMv7-A ISA (i.e. ARM Cortex-A9, Qualcomm Scorpion, Marvell Sheeva PJ4) and it's clear that their performance is only a fraction of POWER7's (which is best performing PPC currently) performance. But for a fair comparison we'd have to take also wattage and price into account, calculating ratios like performance per wattage or performance per price.

    > The i.MX family has long lasting road map

    Like the 4+ GHz quad-core Cortex-A9 based i.MX63 processor for 2011? ;-) I'm glad Freescale removed this nonsense roadmap from its website.

    > the "mobileGT" kind of reached its end station there and then
    > (in the context we are speaking about at least)

    Don't tell that to Zylesea. He says he'd like to have a cheap product based on MPC5125 (yes, in the context we are speaking about here):

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=563
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7713&forum=3&start=8

    > If a new version of "LimePC" will follow

    I wasn't talking about new versions but about the *current* ones that you chose to neglect in your previous statement on "consumer products based on PPC".
  • »12.05.11 - 19:47
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10540 from 2003/5/22
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    > Which one of PPC and ARM do *you* think has the brightest future
    > (in a 5-10 year perspective)?

    If you're talking about desktop computing and brighter (not brightest) future then I'm inclined to say this would be ARM, considering recent developments and announcements.

    > What option do you think would be the best for MorphOS, provided
    > the developers wants to keep going for another 5-10 years:
    > 1) Stay forever on PPC
    > 2) Migrate to ARM (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)
    > 3) Migrate to x86 (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)

    I would want to keep backwards compatibility (to m68k at least), thus option #3 is out for sure. Whether I consider option #2 viable depends on the answer to a yet unanswered question about a certain feature of current (or future) ARM processors which would be required for backwards compatibility reasons:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6726&start=87

    More thoughts:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7771&forum=3&start=15
  • »12.05.11 - 20:08
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    >> Which one of PPC and ARM do *you* think has the brightest future
    >> (in a 5-10 year perspective)?

    >If you're talking about desktop computing and brighter (not brightest) future then I'm inclined to >say this would be ARM, considering recent developments and announcements.

    And of all current ISAs?
    Personally I don't see either of these supplanting X86 any time soon.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.05.11 - 23:44
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > And of all current ISAs?

    x86(-64) of course.
  • »13.05.11 - 01:07
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Thanks Andreas. As much as I'd like to see an alternative, for the foreseeable future 64bit X86 does seem to have the dominant position.

    And while ARM is attractive (especially from a price perspective), its unlikely that an ARM port of MorphOS would have enough power to run PPC apps.
    68K apps, obviously, could be run. But a great deal of the software I have is MorphOS specific.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.05.11 - 04:17
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  • Leo
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    Leo
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    Quote:


    And while ARM is attractive (especially from a price perspective), its unlikely that an ARM port of MorphOS would have enough power to run PPC apps.
    68K apps, obviously, could be run. But a great deal of the software I have is MorphOS specific.


    Why are we talking about the past ? "back"ward... A port to a new architecture would be a reason to look in the future, and forget about the past.

    It would be like constructing new train lines, but running old trains at low speed over it: what's the point ?

    So, not thinking about running previous apps (ppc,68k): what about new perspectives ? x86 ? arm ?

    Don't wanna go arm/x86 just to run 68k/ppc apps...

    [ Edited by Leo 13.05.2011 - 06:51 ]
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »13.05.11 - 07:49
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2583 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    POWER7


    ...wasn't really the issue here.

    Quote:

    Yes, a fair comparison ... POWER7


    Sigh.

    Most people in this community who casually makes comparisons of various CPU platforms, usually does that based on one single point of view; Traditional Desktops. Like Crumb and Jim above. Because in their view, this is what Amiga/MorphOS is about. Problem is that nobody has been developing PPC desktop CPU's since 2007. x86 is the only desktop CPU today, so when desktop-oriented guys makes casual comparisons about architectures, it all really sums up to what's available from Intel and AMD. A new, viable, competitive PPC based desktop motherboard will *never, ever* be seen again! PowerPC has been "reduced" to be application CPU's after Apple moved away from the architecture, which is what ARM has been from the beginning. This is where these two architectures compete today (if anywhere), in various specific applications, not on a general desktop arena, because PPC simply isn't there anymore (even if some people tends to think so, based on the second hand mac market or whatever) and ARM hasn't got there yet (but is about to).

    So if the application is, for example Nettop's and Netbooks, then the PPC camp would probably put forward the 5121e, and the ARM camp could choose from, say, the i.MX51, i.MX53, Tegra 1 or Tegra 2. All of those ARM chips performs much better than the PPC and has far better features. One other of the the target application areas of the mobileGT 5121e is automotive infotainment, but I'll tell you what - many car manufacturers are working with ARM and Android now for exactly this area. Many of Freescale's ARM CPU directly targets applications previously owned by PPC. So yes - they do compete, and ARM most often comes out on top in comparisons (performance, features, etc). Home servers/NAS units are other kinds of consumer applications where ARM would compete (and beat) PPC, and then there are *numerous* of embedded areas as well.

    POWER7 doesn't really fit the picture...

    Quote:

    Freescale ... nonsense roadmap


    Freescale is obviously at least a year behind the competition in the ARM market; while various companies are now pushing Cortex-A9 CPU's, Freescale is only now pushing their i.MX53 which is still Cortex-A8 (albeit faster than i.MX51 in many ways). But to suggest that Freescale wouldn't have a future planned for their i.MX effort is nonsense; this would probably be their most important segment now for potential growth. Roadmaps are snapshots of how future plans look at that moment in time, nothing else, and future targets are *moving* targets, so much can change after such a snap shot has been taken, so they are only relevant for a limited amount of time. Your whole perception of reality seems to be based on links and web references, but that gives a very poor view of the reality, and it's a good thing that at least Genesi isn't relying on linked images on websites to get info; they are friends with the people who are making those road maps in the first place, so they (and others) have a better source or info... :-)

    Quote:

    > If a new version of "LimePC" will follow

    I wasn't talking about new versions but about the *current* ones that you chose to neglect in your previous statement on "consumer products based on PPC".


    You don't understand why I choose to neglect it, do you? I choose to neglect it because it's *painfully irrelevant* and not because I don't know about it, so there is no need for you to try to "enlighten" me. It's a parenthesis at best. Or rather: it *was* a parenthesis, it's quite old now and nothing new based on PPC followed it, so you know what - I'll happily *continue* to neglect it and stick to my statement that nobody is building any (for MorphOS) interesting products based on PPC, and nobody will do it in the future either.
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  • »13.05.11 - 08:41
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    >> POWER7

    > ...wasn't really the issue here.

    POWER7 does meet your criterion of being one of the "flavors of *current* PPC".

    >> Yes, a fair comparison ... POWER7

    > Sigh.

    Don't make up quotes. I clearly said that comparing POWER7 and current ARM chips based on performance would be *not* fair. I chose POWER7 in that statement because it's the best performing PPC chip in existence currently. This was an answer to you quoting Jim's statement on ARM chips not being "as powerful as PPCs". I don't know which "PPCs" Jim meant to refer to specifically, so I simply chose to take the most powerful one to illustrate my point that comparing performance alone is not fair.

    > Most people in this community who casually makes comparisons of
    > various CPU platforms, usually does that based on one single point of
    > view; Traditional Desktops. Like Crumb and Jim above.

    You could as well exchange "POWER7" for "PA6T" or "PPC970" in my statement. Would work as well to make my point, albeit not as nicely as their performance edge over current ARMs is smaller than POWER7's of course.

    > when desktop-oriented guys makes casual comparisons about architectures,
    > it all really sums up to what's available from Intel and AMD

    Huh? How could a comparison between current ARM chips and current PPC chips (that's what we (including Crumb and Jim) have been talking about, remember?) include anything "from Intel and AMD"?

    > application CPU [...] which is what ARM has been from the beginning.
    > [...] general desktop arena, [...] ARM hasn't got there yet

    ARM architecture was already in the "general desktop arena", which is the arena it was originally developed for. After all, Acorn, who invented the ARM architecture, was a producer of desktop class computers:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risc_PC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_A7000

    So if it will play a role in desktop computing in the future it will be a *return* for ARM architecture to its origins, not a first.

    > the PPC camp would probably put forward the 5121e, and the ARM camp
    > could choose from, say, the i.MX51, i.MX53, Tegra 1 or Tegra 2. All of those
    > ARM chips performs much better than the PPC

    A core performance comparison of 800 MHz Tegra 1 (ARM11 core) vs. 400 MHz MPC5121e (e300c4 core) should prove interesting I think. Btw, how's your performance comparison between your 800 MHz Efika MX and an 800 MHz Sam440 doing? ;-)

    > One other of the the target application areas of the mobileGT 5121e is
    > automotive infotainment, but I'll tell you what - many car manufacturers
    > are working with ARM and Android now for exactly this area. Many of
    > Freescale's ARM CPU directly targets applications previously owned by PPC.

    I'll tell you what as well. We (that is mostly Neko and me) had this very discussion almost two years ago here on MorphZone. There I absolutely acknowledged that Freescale was substituting PPC (MobileGT) by ARM (i.MX) in automotive *infotainment*, no argument about that at all:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6428&start=14

    > ARM most often comes out on top in comparisons (performance, features, etc).

    That would depend on the specific application.

    > Home servers/NAS units are other kinds of consumer applications
    > where ARM would compete (and beat) PPC

    Any details to back up the "beat" part of your claim? As a side note, MIPS is strong in the communications and networking market as well:

    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4206111/MIPS-vs--Power--Truth-about-comms-market-share ("MIPS’ definition of the communication market includes [...] also WiFi, broadband access points and customer premise equipment where MIPS is traditionally strong.")

    > POWER7 doesn't really fit the picture...

    I think you're just mistaken as to why I decided to mention it.

    >> Freescale ... nonsense roadmap

    > Freescale is obviously at least a year behind the competition in the ARM market

    That's not what I was referring to with my remark on this "nonsense roadmap" thing, and you know it. A 4+ GHz quad-core Cortex-A9 based i.MX63 processor in 2011, which is what Freescale had in their April 2010 i.MX roadmap, would not only put Freescale on par with the competition but far far ahead. Only problem was that this roadmap could already be recognized as pure hubris in June 2010 when I found it.

    > to suggest that Freescale wouldn't have a future planned for
    > their i.MX effort is nonsense

    Yes, that's why I didn't do that.

    > Roadmaps are snapshots of how future plans look at that moment
    > in time, nothing else, and future targets are *moving* targets, so much
    > can change after such a snap shot has been taken, so they are only
    > relevant for a limited amount of time.

    You're trying to be funny here? I mean, really, did you find a 4+ GHz quad-core Cortex-A9 based processor supposed to be coming from Freescale (or anybody else for that matter) in 2011 realistic in mid-2010, considering that ARM Ltd. itself has been specifying the Cortex-A9 at 2 GHz "typical operation" as you well know?

    > Your whole perception of reality seems to be based on links and web references

    No, you're mistaken again. It's just that my perception of Freescale's roadmaps is based on what roadmaps Freescale makes publically available on the web. It's certainly not my fault when roadmaps do not even make sense at the time they're published, is it?

    > but that gives a very poor view of the reality

    As you correctly stated before, roadmaps are essentially about plans for the future, less about current reality. If you say that publically available roadmaps give "a very poor view" of a company's plans for the future then what do you think should someone who doesn't have access to confidential roadmaps take as basis for judging the company's plans for the future that gives a better view than the publically available roadmaps?

    > it's a good thing that at least Genesi isn't relying on linked
    > images on websites to get info

    Yes, of course. Genesi are a Freescale business partner which suggests that they have an NDA with Freescale and thus access to confidential Freescale product roadmaps. So they simply don't have to rely on publically available roadmaps from Freescale. I don't know about you but I don't have an NDA with Freescale so I don't have access to confidential Freescale product roadmaps (and if I had I wouldn't be allowed to discuss them in public anyway) and thus have to base my judgements on publically available roadmaps.

    > they are friends with the people who are making those road maps in the first place

    Oh, "friends", really? That's a strange word in the context of business relations I think. But anyway, I would like Genesi to ask their alleged "friends" what they intended by putting a 4+ GHz quad-core Cortex-A9 based i.MX63 processor for 2011 in their April 2010 i.MX roadmap.

    > so they (and others) have a better source or info...

    Yes, of course. Nobody doubted that.

    > You don't understand why I choose to neglect it, do you?

    I think I do.

    > I choose to neglect it because it's *painfully irrelevant*

    No, they *are* consumer products based on PPC, so they're clearly relevant in the context of "consumer products based on PPC" (which is a category that you chose, not me). If you think that something, albeit existing and fitting your category, for whatever reason lacks significance then you're free to mitigate your claim by using for instance "almost nobody" and "almost no". I surely wouldn't object to that.

    > not because I don't know about it, so there is no need for you to try to "enlighten" me.

    I didn't intend to "enlighten" you. I merely asked you if production had stopped as that wouldn't be so surprising to me (web store listings could as well be remnants). And it would have explained your "nobody" and "no" statements very well.

    > it's quite old now and nothing new based on PPC followed it

    That doesn't change the fact that it's "consumer products based on PPC", in our context at least as long as it's still getting produced. You didn't answer my question regarding production status of those devices so I take it they're still being produced.

    > I'll happily *continue* to neglect it and stick to my statement

    Of course I can't force you to be truthful. But I'll continue to take the opportunity to make annotations or corrections whenever I feel you've swept something under the table or have not been truthful.
  • »13.05.11 - 12:30
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    takemehomegrandma
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    @Andreas

    I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let you derail yet another fine thread with your inability to discuss whats really being discussed instead of marking words out of context. And it's way too much text. And it's off topic anyway. Sorry.
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  • »13.05.11 - 16:50
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    From: Germany
    > I'm not going to let you derail yet another fine thread

    Trying to be funny again? This thread was dead since January. I tried to exhume it in February, in March and now in May again. This latest attempt of mine from three days ago seems to have been successful. So it doesn't make sense to say that I derailed this thread when in fact I'm the one who resurrected it, but then such claim fits your other nonsense claims very well. (And btw, what does "yet another" refer to specifically?)

    > with your inability to discuss whats really being discussed

    That's rich coming from someone who suddenly talks about "what's available from Intel and AMD" in a discussion about ARM and how it compares to PPC.

    > instead of marking words out of context.

    That's rich coming from someone who misquotes me with "Yes, a fair comparison ... POWER7" when in fact I said the exact opposite.

    > it's way too much text.

    Much nonsense induces much rectification as well as many questions you're probably not going to answer anyway.

    > it's off topic anyway.

    You didn't even read (or comprehend?) what I wrote but say it's off topic? Interesting. Let me list some points of our dispute that are clearly connected to the topic of ARM and thus on-topic in this thread by definition:

    1. You claim that ARM was originally designed for other purposes than desktop computing. This is false. ARM was originally designed for desktop computing and nothing else.
    2. You claim that ARM11 outperforms e300c4 but fail to back up that claim.
    3. You say you think that your Efika MX outperforms an equally clocked Sam440 but so far refuse to perform actual testing.
    4. You claim that generally ARM "most often comes out on top in comparisons (performance, features, etc)" compared to PPC. Such statement doesn't make sense without specifying a particular application.
    5. You claim that ARM beats PPC in "Home servers/NAS units" but fail to back up that claim (or even to define what you mean by "beat", could be performance, numbers, revenue or anything).
    6. You don't want to admit that Freescale's public i.MX roadmap from April 2010 was nothing but a bad joke and was recognizable as exactly that from April 2010 on.
  • »13.05.11 - 17:39
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1899 from 2003/6/4
    takemehomegrandma, Which one of PPC and ARM do *you* think has the brightest future (in a 5-10 year perspective)?

    What option do you think would be the best for MorphOS, provided the developers wants to keep going for another 5-10 years:
    1) Stay forever on PPC
    2) Migrate to ARM (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)
    3) Migrate to x86 (doesn't necessarily mean abandoning PPC)

    Quote:



    Well, I am not Andreas, but I pick up this question as well: I think it is difficukt to say how the future will be. I am almost sure x86 will rule the average desktop market for the years to come. User'S don't have many convincing reasons to switch isa. They use x86 now and they will continue to do so. It is a thing of convenience and laziness and experinence (never change a running system). I think ARM wil *not* challenge teh desktop market.
    But in server and business computer land ARM may get some serious market share with the windows port.
    Anyway, what's for MorphOS to do then?
    I think the only cpu that *for sure* will stay in desktop country is x86. Sinc new ppc desktop gear is rather unlikely in the coming few years I would favor a switch to x86 following roughly what I outlined here: https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6570&forum=3&post_id=66869#66869

    Thing is, if Freescale does it and ships the QorIQ Altivec chips and somehow a general purpose board for a not too insane price appears I'd suggest keep ppc. It is not because I think ppc is the holy grail or such, but because MorphOS is small and the developers have limited resources only. An ISA switch may be too demanding for the given man power.
    All in all I think ARM is not the best choice for MorphOS. It would be trading one niche for the next one. If changing the ISA becomes unevitable eventually, then better chose the most popuar ISA. And for desktop computers that is - and will be - without any doubt x86 (for the next couple of years at least). I am willing to bet quite some serious money that it will be no prob to buy an x86 compatible general purpose/desktop computer in 2025. But I do have my concerns about an ARM based comparable machine in that regard though. ARM may or may not be successful in desktop land, x86 just is.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »13.05.11 - 23:51
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1899 from 2003/6/4
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    Don't tell that to Zylesea. He says he'd like to have a cheap product based on MPC5125 (yes, in the context we are speaking about here):


    And I still think it would be a realistic scenario. The 5125 is a really ultra cheap SoC that is pretty capable of something. It really doesn't need to hide.
    Okay, ppc currently lacks desktop processors and very mobile solutions but in many other areas the sitution isn't that bad. And in my recognition the 5125 is one of the most interesting chips Freescale ever made (in regard of the total cost of a system/performance).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »14.05.11 - 00:03
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    T5040 baby, that's what I want. Enable ASMP under MorphOS and see what can be done with four cores.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.05.11 - 02:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10540 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Enable ASMP under MorphOS and see what can
    > be done with four cores.

    MorphOS already runs on machines with two cores/processors, so for "enabling" ASMP in MorphOS no new hardware would be required.
  • »14.05.11 - 13:17
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    True, and ASMP wouldn't break legacy compatibility.
    We already have dual CPU G4s, so we're ready.
    The G5 support a total of four cores doesn't it (or is it only two)?
    I still like the T5020 and T5040 though.
    who says PPC is dead?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.05.11 - 16:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10540 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The G5 support a total of four cores doesn't it (or is it only two)?

    Yes, the top model of the last PowerMac G5 generation has two dual-core CPUs, i.e. four cores overall.
  • »14.05.11 - 17:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1899 from 2003/6/4
    While I think my minimalistic 5125 board idea was already ultra low cost, here's another approach that actually is *really* low cost:
    http://www.raspberrypi.org/

    I'd call that estimated price tag ambitious, but possilbe in bulk loads with close to no earnings (it is aimed as kind of charity project).

    More tech details, performance and such would interesting though.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »25.05.11 - 17:38
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