ARM for the future?
  • Jim
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    Jim
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    The Freescale Roadmap shown in that first document is not encouraging for future PPC development.
    The Qorlq family shifts to primarily ARM processors and the only PPC core left in the furthest part of the forecast is the e6500.

    So our current ISA narrows to limit our choices, but they are not bad.
    And in the future ARM dominates. Good information to base decisions on our current direction(s).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.07.15 - 17:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
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    Isn't a switch to AMD, like, confirmed?
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  • »15.07.15 - 13:20
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Isn't a switch to AMD, like, confirmed?


    I do not remember hearing about that.
    Sounds like an ask Andreas moment.

    AMD processors with built-in gpus would make as much sense as any other choice.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.07.15 - 16:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
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    @Jim

    I beat him to it :-D

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&post_id=118409&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1
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  • »15.07.15 - 16:46
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > Isn't a switch to AMD, like, confirmed?

    AMD64 *ISA* doesn't necessarily mean AMD :-)

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&start=19
  • »15.07.15 - 17:26
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  • Jim
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    OK!
    I must remember to read entire threads.
    No Macs is cool with me.
    And I have been using AMD processors in most of my X86 systems since the K6-III+ was introduced.

    So we have the e5500 cored processors to look forward to support for in later revisions of our current OS (and with the e6500, a possible direction further).
    And AMD's APUs can provide the base for the new branch.

    Cool.

    A new lightweight OS that isn't weighed down by legacy crap, that IS morphing to something better.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.07.15 - 18:08
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    amigadave
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    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    OK!
    I must remember to read entire threads.
    No Macs is cool with me.
    And I have been using AMD processors in most of my X86 systems since the K6-III+ was introduced.

    So we have the e5500 cored processors to look forward to support for in later revisions of our current OS (and with the e6500, a possible direction further).
    And AMD's APUs can provide the base for the new branch.

    Cool.

    A new lightweight OS that isn't weighed down by legacy crap, that IS morphing to something better.


    As Andreas Wolf mentioned, AMD64 does not mean AMD CPU's, or APU's, it could mean Intel chips as well, that use the AMD64 ISA.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »15.07.15 - 19:49
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    OK!
    I must remember to read entire threads.
    No Macs is cool with me.
    And I have been using AMD processors in most of my X86 systems since the K6-III+ was introduced.

    So we have the e5500 cored processors to look forward to support for in later revisions of our current OS (and with the e6500, a possible direction further).
    And AMD's APUs can provide the base for the new branch.

    Cool.

    A new lightweight OS that isn't weighed down by legacy crap, that IS morphing to something better.


    As Andreas Wolf mentioned, AMD64 does not mean AMD CPU's, or APU's, it could mean Intel chips as well, that use the AMD64 ISA.


    Good point David, AMD did lead the move to 64 bit.
    Although I tend to use X86-64 or X64 to differentiate this from X86 32 bit.
    After all, it is just an advance on an Intel ISA.

    Makes you wonder what hardware they will adopt.
    If the past is any kind of indication, we may not get that much warning.

    Still, I am looking forward to the X5000.
    What happens after that...well it will have to be judged on its own merits.

    Hopefully, the NGNG OS will incorporate some of the elements (outside of legacy compatibility) that make MorphOS stand out (compact/tight coding, micro kernel, etc).


    [ Edited by Jim 15.07.2015 - 15:18 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »15.07.15 - 21:14
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > AMD did lead the move to 64 bit.

    ...12 years and 7 ISAs after the first one ;-)

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=17


    Personally, it still looks like the evolution of one ISA to me.
    There is a much greater degree of backward compatibility here then say differing Power families.
    But I am sure you will contest that. ;)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.07.15 - 00:42
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > it still looks like the evolution of one ISA to me. There is a much greater degree
    > of backward compatibility here then say differing Power families. But I am sure
    > you will contest that. ;)

    Absolutely ;-) PPC64 and PPC32 are much more alike than x86-64 and x86(-32) or AArch64 and AArch32. The reason for the good backward compatibility in the latter cases is the fact that these 64-bit processors separately implement the 32-bit ISA in addition.
  • »16.07.15 - 01:00
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > it still looks like the evolution of one ISA to me. There is a much greater degree
    > of backward compatibility here then say differing Power families. But I am sure
    > you will contest that. ;)

    Absolutely ;-) PPC64 and PPC32 are much more alike than x86-64 and x86(-32) or AArch64 and AArch32. The reason for the good backward compatibility in the latter cases is the fact that these 64-bit processors separately implement the 32-bit ISA in addition.


    Good answer.
    A fine line, but valid.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.07.15 - 10:19
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12113 from 2003/5/22
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    Update:

    >>> in terms of 64-bit ARMv8 (AArch64) cores, there is announced so far:
    >>> - Cortex-A53, Cortex-A57 and Cortex A-72 from ARM Ltd.
    >>> - Denver from nVidia
    >>> - X-Gene from Applied Micro
    >>> - Thunder from Cavium
    >>> - Cyclone and Typhoon from Apple

    >> - Vulcan from Broadcom
    >> - K12 from AMD

    > - Kryo from Qualcomm

    - Xiaomi from Phytium

    http://www.theplatform.net/2015/08/25/inside-chinas-homegrown-64-core-arm-big-iron-chip/
    http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327526
  • »26.08.15 - 10:44
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Posts: 165 from 2004/11/18
    For me i am absolutly sure that Morphos will be ported to AMD64 arch, i don't know the target machine but it's not the problem. All powerpc software could be ported on AMD64 well...but it's just a problem for 68k apps, for me i don't use any 68k app for now...i prefer using e-uae whith jit. On AMD64 E-UAE will be dramatically faster ....just like a bullet.
    If the switch occur it could be the time to add memory protection and smp and lot of things, backward compatibility is not the way .... it will be better to recompile lot of sdl and application for the new morphos.
    I am sure that people who are saying AMD or INTEL sucks today will change their mind when they will see a new morphos without amigaos limitations but whith all the spirit of amigaos. It will be transparent for end user, just better and easier for programmers.
    It's the time to change the rules......whithout many work AMD 64 could launch Owb whith Javascript jit...Many emulators whith jit; many games which have endianess issues.....
    More devellopers we have more software we have.....
    To help for hardware support we can imagine that morphos could be hosted by an another kernel like quark on powerpc machines.
    A bit like amithlon....

    [ Edited by acepeg 27.08.2015 - 21:48 ]
  • »27.08.15 - 21:37
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Intel, Amd, and the other X86 vendors used to suck.
    From the '386 onward things have steadily improved.
    Once AMD introduced the Athlon, I really started to be impressed, and the move that AMD started to X64 really solidifies the ISA.

    So, I'm pretty much over my anti Intel bias.
    Although I DO think RISC processors are a better solution (but then we don't really want to get down to what is really running at the core of some "X86" cpus).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.08.15 - 13:41
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    (but then we don't really want to get down to what is really running at the core of some "X86" cpus).


    You mean how they are all RISC under the hood? ;-)

    Not that it matters one bit. It was a long time that thing stopped to matter. A PPC CPU saying "RISC processors are a better solution" to a current Intel Core i3/i5/i7 CPU, is like an A500 saying "Only Amiga makes it possible" to a PS4.

    :-P
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  • »28.08.15 - 16:49
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    (but then we don't really want to get down to what is really running at the core of some "X86" cpus).


    You mean how they are all RISC under the hood? ;-)

    Not that it matters one bit. It was a long time that thing stopped to matter. A PPC CPU saying "RISC processors are a better solution" to a current Intel Core i3/i5/i7 CPU, is like an A500 saying "Only Amiga makes it possible" to a PS4.

    :-P



    Yep, not many people realize that processors no longer directly execute their opcodes.
    I think the last hard coded cpu may have been the 6809.

    As to the rest, its really a pointless argument these days isn't it?
    And we don't need that much horsepower.
    Today's PPC and X64 cpus are more powerful then we need.

    Not that we can't always use more power.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.08.15 - 17:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    In_Correct
    Posts: 245 from 2012/10/14
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    I do not like it either. I want a MIPS port. It would be a perfect for MorphOS to have MIPS, to retain uniqueness. 8-) As an alternative, I would enjoy seeing MorphOS ported to a Pi device.

    But neither will attract sufficient new developers apparently.

    I do hope that they will consider AMD instead of Intel, and if successful (attracting at minimum 100,000 new users and a 100 more developers) then ports to all the other architectures and other Hardware including fully support of Power Mac G5, and Minimig might be possible in perhaps 25 years. :-D

    [ Edited by In_Correct 28.08.2015 - 10:39 ]
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »28.08.15 - 17:39
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > I think the last hard coded cpu may have been the 6809.

    Interestingly, the 68060 is completely hard-wired while the 68040 and prior use microcode.
  • »28.08.15 - 17:46
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    takemehomegrandma
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    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    And we don't need that much horsepower.
    Today's PPC and X64 cpus are more powerful then we need.

    Not that we can't always use more power.


    We don't?

    And please don't put an equal sign on PPC and x64, not only do they not play in the same league, they are in different dimensions today.

    Heavy graphics editing/processing (á la Photoshop), 3D rendering, applications for video editing (á la After Effects on PC/Mac) and encoding, music creation (with lots of stacked SW synth's/VST plugs like on PC/Mac), etc, all historical "Amiga" strengths (a in a different time of course, using different methods than today of course, and Amiga of course never saw these kind of programs, but anyway ;-)), they will all happily swallow all CPU power you throw at it. Especially if you want to view results (or at least previews) in real-time, which really is something that benefits any creative process.

    Of course I know that there are no such programs for Amiga, and if possible it will be even less for the new MorphOS once it gets here. And I'm not claiming there will ever be any either. But without the CPU power of modern Intel's, there is also no point in writing such applications. You've got to start somewhere!

    And when speaking of writing SW, it deserves to mention that SW development/compiling large projects require a lot of CPU power. Ask Fab what machine he uses to compile Odyssey for example. I would be surprised if the very MorphOS releases we use today isn't built on x86 machines as well.

    Heck, even everyday stuff like web browsing (especially heavy, media-centric sites) and media playback of various kinds could use a lot more CPU power than we can get from our PPC machines...

    And 4k is about to break through, stuff like augmented reality, VR, etc. Not saying that we will ever have such applications, I'm not naive, but without the processing ower, the chances are 0%.

    ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »28.08.15 - 20:20
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    takemehomegrandma
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    Quote:

    In_Correct wrote:

    I do hope that they will consider AMD instead of Intel


    I don't, that wouldn't make sense IMHO.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »28.08.15 - 20:52
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2054 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    Not that we can't always use more power.



    There's a simple IT rule: You cannot have too much computing power!
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  • »28.08.15 - 20:52
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    Zylesea
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    In_Correct schrieb:
    I do not like it either. I want a MIPS port. It would be a perfect for MorphOS to have MIPS, to retain uniqueness.


    From one µnice to another µniche? Well, some ppl actually like to bang their head against th ewall all day long....
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  • »28.08.15 - 20:55
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 165 from 2004/11/18
    No ....AMD64 is the best way for many reasons...AMD graphics card whith pci express will be also supported (os4 support partially such cards)
    I prefer also ISA like arm or mips or powerpc e6500 but i fact there is no desktop machine mass producted with those ISA... and the power stay behind AMD64. Arm cortex A15 is a lot faster than Intel Atom; but versus a core I3 or any AMD FX it's not the same.
    Processor power is a need for descent browsing speed,for html5 games like angry birds for exemple....

    Amd64 ISA offert more power for lower prices.....it's not a joke...it's real.
    Powerpc is dead for desktop, Mips is only for super computers, no mainstream manufacturer use it. And Arm is growing fast, it's interesting but only chromebook use it for now.

    [ Edited by acepeg 28.08.2015 - 22:35 ]
  • »28.08.15 - 22:27
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