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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    feanor says:

    Quote:

    please do continue. pile on what? Unless, that's a phrase I'm not aware of -I'm not a native English speaker anyway.


    συμμορία


    = gang (in greek). What do you mean? You make no sense.
  • »02.07.10 - 07:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > WHAAAT? Tell us more! Those samples alone are seriuos money themselves...

    Freescale has always been generous at providing sample CPUs :-)

    "One contact suggested I try to find a replacement CPU from Freescale, unfortunately the range had been discontinued and there was no stock left. There was some stock at a couple of other suppliers but they were only interested in selling off their complete stock in units of 36. I looked again at Freescale and checked the CPU specs, finding there were many more similar CPU's amongst which was the G4 7457.
    The specs on this claimed it was a direct pin for pin replacement for the 7455 with the added bonus that it was still in production, with various choices from 933Mhz to 1.3Ghz. The specs married and the core voltage was just enough to be used on the A1. My contact had also suggested that I should ask Freescale for a sample. I had not used this method of obtaining goods since I was at school where we would regularly apply to Cadbury,s for information for our school projects and would receive an info pack and some samples. I had forgotten people still did that.
    I registered on their website with my business name (I am a self-employed auto-electrician) and sent a request for a sample CPU 7457 1.3GHz. My reason for the request was to monitor the cooling properties of the CPU in an A1. All credit to Freescale, they contacted me within 24hrs with a positive response to my enquiry and said they would ship the sample.
    So I waited and after a couple of weeks a package arrived with not 1 but 4 sample CPU's! I was astonished, incredulous and astounded that I had obtained replacements so easily. Freescale even paid the shipping costs."
    http://www.intuitionbase.com/static.php?section=en_cpu-repair (October 2007)
  • »02.07.10 - 12:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    Quote:

    I was astonished, incredulous and astounded that I had obtained replacements so easily. Freescale even paid the shipping costs



    Add me to the list of people stunned by this amazing story. Indeed, it's true that some great individuals work for this big company.
  • »02.07.10 - 12:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I still can't get data out of Applied Micro on the APM 83290 SoC [...]. Freescale has always
    > been pretty open with me (even providing me the MPC8641D samples [...]). I'm going to
    > check out the e5500. At 2.5 GHz, even without Altivec, it might be a match for the PA6T.

    Just for the purpose of overview I compiled a list of the DMIPS/MHz per core figures for various PPCs in ascending order (AltiVec capability is generally ignored, obviously):

    e300: 1.9...2.0 (depending on version)
    PPC440: 2.0
    PPC460: 2.0
    Titan: 2.0 (presumably PPC450 based)
    PA6T: 2.2
    PPC750: 2.3
    e600: 2.3
    PPC470: 2.3 or 2.5 (varying with information source)*
    e500mc: 2.5
    PPC970: 2.9
    e5500: 3.0

    * <edit>IBM says the PPC476FP has a figure of 2.7</edit>

    What seems really weird is the rather low value for the PA6T (which was provided by P.A.Semi themselves btw), especially compared to the PPC970, which I thought it should have been on par with. Or maybe the PPC970 figure is too high (i.e. with AltiVec)?

    > its available from a company that doesn't make it difficult to obtain technical
    > information or components.

    According to Freescale first samples of e5500 based silicon will be available in Q4/2010, initially scaling up to 2.0 GHz, later up to 2.2 GHz. And while the e5500 core is claimed to be able to reach up to 2.5 GHz, no such part has been announced yet.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf on 2010/11/13 2:09 ]
  • »02.07.10 - 12:56
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    jcmarcos wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    providing me the MPC8641D samples for my aborted PPC motherboard


    WHAAAT? Tell us more! Those samples alone are seriuos money themselves...


    Freescale really is a true descendant of Motorola.

    In the 80's when I was managing an independent Radio Shack (which also ran another business selling multi-user 68000 systems) Motorola announced it was discontinuing the 6829 (an MMU for the 6809 processor). Since I wanted one to experiment with, I contacted Motorola. They sent me out the XC labeled component (even though their reps and I had already discussed the Tandy developed VLSI that would become the core of the Color Computer 3 - and which made the 6829 obsolete).

    I always had a good relationship with Motorola (their reps frequently gave me information before it was announced and samples were easy to obtain). Since I've managed a company that built computers based on their components, I never had a problem getting support from Motorola.

    Believe it or not, Freescale (while it isn't quite Motorola) is also relatively easy to deal with. Unlike Applied Micro, I might add, which wouldn't give me an NDA unless I maintained a website, Freescale's reps and I have a good relationship that goes back to the Motorola period. Of all the companies currently making microprocessor, I think I'm most fond of Freescale. They really do try harder than most companies to promote their product.

    I never posted anything about the MPC8641D project, because I didn't know if I'd see it to fruition. I did consult with Andreas because he has consistently offered me the best advice (of anyone on the web I keep contact with). I actually got pretty far with the design, but it required an ATI Southbridge (an SB600) anf a FPGA for glue circuitry. The expense of building the prototypes alone was daunting.

    Then the MorphOS team announced support for G4 Macs, and it seemed pointless to consider building an expensive 1.25 Mhz e600 motherboard.
    Especially since I would have had to pay the MorphOS development team for porting (or at least provided several machines and convinced them that my project was worth supporting).

    Anyway, yes Freescale did provide me with two MPC8641Ds worth at least a couple hundred a piece. But, that's because they took me seriously.

    I've talked to the head of IBM's division that makes Cell processors (and the Xenon), Freescales reps (of course), and the designer of the X1000 (months before anyone else was discussing Varisys, Andreas and I were speculating about that company's owner). I tried to establish a relationship with Applied Micro (which I still have one contact with), but they're more secretive than IBM.

    I (and I believe Andreas, although I wouldn't claim to speak for him) believe strongly that our future still lies in PPC (or PPC related) processors. While Freescale has canceled the e700, they appear to have incorporated some of the e700's features in their latest evolution of the e500 core. I've already sent in an inquiry about the P5020 and 5010 (the first 5500 cored processors).

    While financing a new motherboard is a massive undertaking (and I don't doubt Treavor at A-eon's estimates of his current expenses), the design tools don't require a large team of people (just a lot of time - designs have gotten much more complicated since I was selling 68K based systems).

    So, right now, yes I'm sitting on the MPC8641D samples (and a lot of preliminary design work tat has not seen recent revisions in months). IBM wouldn't agree to sell me Cell processors. Applied Micro is even harder to deal with and I have no idea how A-eon managed to secure PA6Ts (although Andreas has consistently insisted this would be the X1000's processor - and he was right).

    Lets see if the 5500 core has potential. That lack of Altivec instructions is discouraging, but the first two processors are supposed to clock up to 2.2 Ghz (with 2.5 processors apparently coming soon and a design goal of 3.0 Ghz).

    I've always believed that, with the proper financing, a motherboard with much better features than the boards that Acube sells could be built (and that it could be sold for about the same price as the SAM).

    But, its never good to announce speculative projects. Only once something has reached at least a prototype stage, would I normally feel comfortable releasing any info on it.

    The main reason I posted this, is that I want you all to realize that these things are worked on and discussed amongst a few of us. PPC is not dead, hell its not even resting.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 14:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > months before anyone else was discussing Varisys, Andreas and I were
    > speculating about that company's owner

    You and me started speculating about Varisys here on MorphZone beginning of April, in this very thread. But discussion of Varisys as the potential Nemo designers had started beginning of January on amigaworld.net (by BigBentheAussie):
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30452&forum=2#532576

    I have then merely joined this educated assumption:
    http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/244232.html (German)

    > While Freescale has canceled the e700, they appear to have incorporated
    > some of the e700's features in their latest evolution of the e500 core.

    As discussed here in this thread, some (see Wikipedia) even think the e5500 to actually be what was announced as e700 in 2004. But taking into account how Freescale's presentations suddenly changed from the e700 being based on e600 to being based on e500 shortly after Apple's mid 2005 switch announcement we can assume that the e5500 actually is what has been on the roadmap as "e700" since mid 2005, but not what had been on there as "e700" before, i.e. from April 2004 to mid 2005.

    > I have no idea how A-eon managed to secure PA6Ts

    Let's hope A-Eon will tell this "quite a story" as soon as they officially confirm the PA6T :-)

    > a design goal of 3.0 Ghz

    Is this insider information? Freescale officially announced the e5500 to be able to scale up to 2.5 GHz.

    > I (and I believe Andreas, although I wouldn't claim to speak for him) believe
    > strongly that our future still lies in PPC (or PPC related) processors. [...] PPC
    > is not dead, hell its not even resting.

    My stance on this:
    Power Architecture seems dead regarding CPUs specifically designed for desktop use. But it's far from dead regarding CPUs that while being designed for other domains could be used for proper desktop designs as well. It's "just" that someone has to develop, build and market such designs for this small market ;-)
    But to make it clear, "PPC or nothing" is not my credo, rather as I told before: As a MorphOS user, my interest lies where MorphOS is. For now that's Power Architecture :-)
  • »02.07.10 - 17:06
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thanks for the clarifications on your part, Andreas (as I said, I would never presume to speak for you). And you had a clearer picture of the PA6T and about Varisys' owner than I ever did. After contacting Varisys, I found your input on these points to be very informative (and in the long run dead on).
    I just got my first response back from Freescale. They want me to dig up the name of the contact I made when I first received my NDA.
    I've looked for it in my e-mail, but when I found it the e-mail server crashed. So, now I'll have to wait till that's back up.
    But then, if the P5010 isn't due to be released till Q4, I've got some time to make sure my NDA is up to date.

    BTW - Thanks for bringing up this processor. The last of the e600 cored SoCs were becoming a bit dated and their development had stopped. I can't remember where I saw the 3.0 Ghz quote, I've been all over (the internet) since you first brought this up. But you're correct first 2.0 and 2.2 Ghz, then 2.5 Ghz. Twice the speed of the MPC8641! This looks very promising.

    Once I have the basic specifications on the P5010 and can get an idea of how complicated a basic design utilizing this processor would be, I can reconnect with the manufacturer I have a relationship with in PA and see if its worth pursuing.

    The 5500 cored processors certainly look more hopeful than the MPC86XX or the low end AM processors that Acube uses.

    Thanks again for being such a well informed member of the community.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 17:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I can't remember where I saw the 3.0 Ghz quote

    It was e700 that was said to go up "to 3 GHz and beyond" when announced in 2004. Maybe you got confused by all these numbers? ;-)

    > then 2.5 Ghz. Twice the speed of the MPC8641!

    2.5 GHz is twice the clock of the MPC8640. Twice the clock of the MPC8641 would be 3.0 GHz :-)
  • »02.07.10 - 18:41
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Right on both points. And 2.0 and 2.2 Ghz are only .5 and .7 Ghz above the top MPC8641 respectively.

    Still, if the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've listed are even close to correct this sounds like a very powerful series of processors.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 20:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've listed are even close to correct

    I hope they (all) are. I didn't run the Dhrystone benchmark on any of these myself but found the (sometimes contradictory, like with PPC470) figures on product websites, fact sheets, product briefs, presentation PDF files and such. Still, the PA6T vs. PPC970 issue is puzzling me.
  • »02.07.10 - 20:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yes, it would imply that MorphOS developers would be much better off porting to a well tested system like a G5 Mac and not to the X1000.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.07.10 - 21:03
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 25.04.2011 - 07:09 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »03.07.10 - 11:18
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:59 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »03.07.10 - 11:21
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    You mean you don't understand, feanor, and that's okay.



    I still don't, whatever...
  • »03.07.10 - 11:58
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||


    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:54 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »03.07.10 - 15:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    There's no point in being obsessively argumentative here.

    And I'm not impressed with the performance of the 5121e (and PowerVR is ancient).

    As to PowerQUICC II Pro based processors, since they use the e300 core (based on the PowerPC 603e that runs in some Amiga accelerators) these processors are not limited to the applications you've mentioned (they could easily run MorphOS).

    Further, PowerQUICC is being supplanted by the software-compatible QorIQ platform on e500 cores. As we were discussing the latest development to the e500 core (the e5500) and the P50xx processors based on that core use less than 30 watts, that seems like reasonably low wattage. And there are lower wattage PPC processors available that don't give up as much performance as the 5121e.

    I don't understand why are so many posters fascinated by low cost, low performance systems built for third world markets. Do you really want to put an OS on a PC that costs more than the computer?

    Recently when I discussed PPC based systems with the owner of Varisys (the designers of the X1000 motherboard) I got this response:

    "In terms of PPC we are thinking QorIQ here for higher end designs."

    We can continue to discussing relatively dead end processors like the 5121e and the PA6T, or resume discussing processors that seem to have a future.


    [ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/3 18:40 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 16:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Even there, you can't resist removing the paragraph break. That didn't happen with the
    > copy and paste. You went in and removed a blank line. Am I wrong? Yes or no?

    No, you are right. I like to have things condensed. And I don't think that removing the blank line changed anything in meaning. After all, there's still the paragraph break, isn't it?

    > At least you included the Theora part. You didn't include that in your first quote
    > of this text, or in your second expanded one.

    Yes, as I prefer to not quote things I'm *not* referring to. Wouldn't make any sense. I didn't refer to "more RAM" but to "dedicated graphics chip". And in that I didn't refer to "Theora decoder" but to "PowerVR". That's why I omitted "more RAM" as well as "Theora decoder". I can't see anything dishonest in that.

    > You're mashing the paragraphs together

    I removed a *blank* line. The paragraph break ist still there.

    > they still don't say to add a second PowerVR to a 5121e computer.
    > [...]
    > None of that refers to adding a second PowerVR to a 5121e system.

    Let's see. There are 4 paragraphs. In the 2nd one you talk about Linkbook, LimePC and your Cherrypal C114, i.e. MPC5121e based computers only. In the 4th paragraph you explain that the other "low-wattage" processors than MPC5121e are not established enough for your liking. And now you say that inbetween, i.e. in the 3rd paragraph, you didn't mean to include the MPC5121e when mentioning "slow, low-wattage processor"? Yes or no?

    > I was not thinking of PowerQiCC.

    Thanks for eventually answering that question. So it seems you don't necessarily think the MPC5121e to be much more established than the PowerQUICC II Pro. Good to have that clarified.

    > I don't think I've ever discussed network or routers or automotive or
    > point-of-sale etc. computers here.

    Huh? PowerQUICC is not a whole system but a *processor* family. You referred to "other things being talked about" and "this other low-wattage, small stuff". And PowerQUICC II Pro actually *had been* talked about right before here in this thread and *is* low-wattage, small stuff. So there's no ill will involved in assuming you may have included PowerQUICC II Pro when mentioning "other things being talked about" and "this other low-wattage, small stuff".
  • »03.07.10 - 17:43
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:
    There's no point in being obsessively argumentative here.


    Hey, they're Amiga people- what do you expect? ;-)

    Quote:

    I don't understand why are so many posters fascinated by low cost, low performance systems built for third world markets. Do you really want to put an OS on a PC that costs more than the computer?

    This could be a great way to go for penetration of developing market though: with MorphOS available to OEMs at a low-cost (or charitable donation) OEM price, if proven to perform well on eg the "$100 noteboook" compared to eg Linux, we could have a realistic way to increase the userbase by an order (or several) of magnitude. Not to mention people's brand loyalty to the first OS with which they learned to use a computer.

    Dreaming perhaps, but an example of how the low-cost low-performance systems could be very interesting for MorphOS.
    www.hullchimneyservices.co.uk

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  • »03.07.10 - 17:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > PowerVR is ancient

    The MBX Lite that is incorporated into the MPC5121e, yes. But there're newer and better PowerVR GPUs available than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series5_.28SGX.29
  • »03.07.10 - 18:20
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Hard to believe they're still developing PowerVR, Andreas, but they seems to have re-targeted their products so they don't have to compete with ATI and Nvidia.

    I still don't see the point in focusing on the MPC5121e, its aging fast.

    And there are a lot of other low wattage PPC processors.

    Sorry, boot_wb, sometimes I forget that at times we all take things too seriously.

    A cheap netbook would be nice, but right now I can buy a G4 Powerbook cheap so I hope we see that port soon. That would blank any 5121e based device.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 20:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hard to believe they're still developing PowerVR

    They're quite successful with it, with Apple being one of their most famous customers (iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch).

    > they seems to have re-targeted their products so they don't have to compete
    > with ATI and Nvidia.

    Yes, when Kyro III was ready for release in 2002 their partner STMicro pulled back, leaving them no other option than to enter portable graphics market and optimize Kyro III for that, resulting in the PowerVR MBX in the same year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#MBX

    > I still don't see the point in focusing on the MPC5121e

    Me neither. I'm a desktop user, and I consider a 400 MHz e300 too weak even for a netbook that could be of use to me.

    > there are a lot of other low wattage PPC processors.

    Exactly. That's why when talk was about the e300 in this thread I said that my vote would be on PowerQUICC II Pro (800 MHz MPC8377E), if it must be e300 by all means that is.
  • »03.07.10 - 22:25
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    SO Velcro_SP was offended because you suggested a more powerful processor and somehow came to think that said processor was only suited to "network or routers or automotive or point-of-sale etc. computers".

    Since I've been part of a company that marketed Point of Sale computers I'm vaguely offended. Unless you're talking about relatively dumb terminals, the computers behind a POS systems need to be fairly robust (you can't do business if your systems down).

    And why can't we leave the low performing PPCs to the AmigaOS crowd?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.07.10 - 23:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12179 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > why can't we leave the low performing PPCs to the AmigaOS crowd?

    Mind you, they're going to have the PA6T. There's currently no better performing CPU a PPC based AmigaOS like OS can run on ;-)
  • »04.07.10 - 00:36
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Mind you, they're going to have the PA6T. There's currently no better performing CPU a PPC based AmigaOS like OS can run on ;-)


    From the DMIPS/MHz per core figures you've list earlier, the e500, e600, G5, and e5500 if run at similar speeds would all outperform the PA6T.

    Of course, not all those cores clock to 1.8 Ghz (or above), but several do. And since the continued availability of PA6Ts is questionable I hope something else comes along.

    And, of course, if you can't afford a X1000, the you better hope you can find a good used Pegasos, because otherwise you're stuck running on one of Acube's anemic boards.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.07.10 - 01:22
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