> I would suggest tehm to try to build a sub 100 EUR board around
> the APM 801xx. That chip is dirtiest cheap

While the chip is cheap I don't think that ACube would be economically able to build a sub 100 EUR board with it. The 440EP and 460EX are just not expensive enough to support your reasoning.
Maybe the 821xx at about 10 USD extra per chip would be more suited. That wouldn't lead to a sub 100 EUR board either but would have much more bang for only very little more buck than a 801xx based board ;-)

> and delivers at 800 MHz a little more power (about 1.5 times MIPS wise) than the
> e300 @ 400MHz.

Yes, 1.6 times the DMIPS value to be precise. And the 821xx @ 1.0 GHz delivers 2.6 times the DMIPS value of the e300 @ 400 MHz (and 1.6 times the DMIPS value of the 801xx @ 800 MHz).

> From the specs a nice chip for ultra low price / lowest wattage / low end applications.

In an AmigaOS/MorphOS context I think the presence of an FPU is mandatory. Does it have one?


Btw, would you please take a look at this?

Quote:
Yes, Acube are not yet known for sane prices. But with some courage and a sub 100 design would be possible with the APM 801xx.
Quote:
At least the 821xx could result in a smarter solution than the coming 460 board (which is insanely expensive and has some severe limitations).
Quote:
Ouch - it seems to be absent (405 core in the schematics, no dedicated fpu ploted). But haven't read too much about the 801xx yet. The tech documentation is not published yet (announced for September). But given teh low price I guess they discarded everything that is not necessary for their target market and a fpu is not needed everywhere, so it seems likely they left it out.
Quote:

Well, I think I read it in a Freescale newsletter, but I am not too sure any more. I think there is something like the e5500 a 64 bit core derived from e500 for QorIQ in the pipeline, but no e700 (which would AFAIK a 64 bit derivate from the e600) . But I cannot provide valid links now.

>> The 440EP and 460EX are just not expensive enough to support your reasoning.

> Yes, Acube are not yet known for sane prices.

I'm not sure you got my point.

> I think I read it in a Freescale newsletter, but I am not too sure any more. I think there is
> something like the e5500 a 64 bit core derived from e500 for QorIQ in the pipeline

You're spot on. Thanks for info :-)

Introduction of the 64 bit dual e5500 core based QorIQ P5020 processor (also to be available as single core P5010):

http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0712.pdf

Seems that "e5500" became the official designation of what was called "e500mc64" before:

http://www.google.com/search?q=e500mc64

Other FTF presentations with references to P5020/P5010/e5500/e500mc64:

http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0425.pdf (pages 11 to 14, 16 and 26)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0444_PDF.pdf (page 20)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0676.pdf (pages 13/14 and 22)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0691.pdf (page 3)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0704.pdf (pages 9 and 11)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0874.pdf (pages 7/8)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_ENT_F0748.pdf (page 42)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0598_PDF.pdf (pages 4, 16 and 18)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0707.pdf (pages 17 and 19/20)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_NET_F0421.pdf (pages 10 and 15/16, with later P5020 release dates than officially announced ones)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/FTF10_ENT_F0453.pdf (pages 6 and 80)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/FTF10_ENT_F0273.pdf (pages 5/6 and 13, with confused families)
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/FTF10_IND_F0427.pdf (pages 6/7, with confused families and confused cores)


Edit: Added some more FTF presentation links.

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf on 2010/7/18 23:46 ]

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 25.04.2011 - 07:13 ]

Quote:

Nah, I know the price of the currently used chips are not necessarily the reason why Acube sells their boards for a premium. But with the 821xx and 801xx the design could be even more simplified and Acube could try to change their business model from a few exclusive boards to affordable bulk production. It is easier to produce an ultra low cost board with *ultra* low cost chips than with low cost chips. But that needs courage and funds. And of course that attempt is risky and I am not sure whether I would invest my money into such an approach or not.

I don't think Acube is likely to change their business model at this point. Supporting mass sales with minimal profit would be costly from a support perspective. They'd probably lose money on that gambit. I may not like their pricing, but they've managed to survive long enough to introduce more than one product. The must be making some profit. Who else in the Amiga market is doing that?

Yeah, but they could move a step into that direction. I mean producing a sub 100 board is pretty risky. But they could try to reduce the cost barrier way off. E.g, a 821xx board for less than 250, I think there would still a nice profit in it. That could generate a few more sales (also outside the OS4 camp). A board around the 8x1xx can be pretty tiny. Something like Efika 5200B is.
Anyway I somehow sympathise with Acube (they are openminded and deliver), but the current price scheme by them is only for hardcore enthusiasts. And the 460 with its stupid pci bus limitations is a bit - well, politely said - suboptimal.

The Efika didn't exactly fly off the shelves. Cheap price, but also low performance and limited ram, slow IDE interface.

People want good pricing but they also want good performance.

SAM460 is good, if they can keep the cost reasonable without sacrificing performance.

Would be a nice replacement for aging PEG-2 machines, though.

> the 460 with its stupid pci bus limitations is a bit - well, politely said - suboptimal.

You mean the fact that on the Sam460EX the onboard SATA2 port and the PCIe 1x slot are mutually exclusive?

Quote:
Precisely. Haven't read any tech documentation about the 460, but I assume it is some limiation in the pci controller of that chip.

Quote:

The Sam 460 offers less than a Peg2 (no Altivec, less expandibility) and is on release in autumn more expensive than a Peg2 was many years ago. To me that doesn't fit into that category "good replacement".
A good replacement would be a 86x0 based ?ATX board. But unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

The Efika 5200B had a few weak points.
- too little RAM
- too slow ide (with flash storage this isn't too dramatic anymore for normal usage)
- not standrad form factor compatible
- need of an ATX PSU (an onboard 12V DC plug would have been much easier)
- no high speed usb

But direction of the Efika was good. The Efika2 would have made a nice device - if only the cache coherence wouldn't have been a show stopper for Linux. Today I think an e300/400MHZ core isn't enough, not even for low end. The Efika 5200B is just able to decode a TV stream - but only with a low bitrate. A bit more juice is required for a low end solution okay today.

> if only the cache coherence wouldn't have been a show stopper for Linux.

Actually, it was cache *non*-coherency ;-)

> Today I think an e300/400MHZ core isn't enough, not even for low end. The
> Efika 5200B is just able to decode a TV stream - but only with a low bitrate.

The MPC5121e that was supposed to go into the "Efika 2" includes the Auxiliary eXecution Engine (AXE), which was "designed for efficient implementation of audio and other algorithms key to multimedia and telematics systems" (Freescale quote). But I don't know how much that unit could be of real help with A/V stream decoding. Moreover, I don't even know if that unit was ever put to any real use by anybody outside Freescale.

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:32 ]

Quote:
Yes, a few years back the 5121 would have been nice, but today it is too little. does your cherry pal replay DVD quality video? I think that would be minimum today. And a bit too much for teh e300/400. *If* freescale came out with asome 512x sporting an e300/600 that could be something interesting still. But i don't know of any plans like that.
Quote:
Well it was a show stopper since it added much, much additional work on the software side - consuming time and introducing more delays. All in al it just took too long. And cherrypal/lime may have a working product now (for a while), but obviously it isn't selling like hot cakes today. It took too long. It pops up here and then from time to time (last time as the Vodafone Sout Africa offer), but yet I don't have heard from a real success story. Unfortunately, I must add.
Quote:
Yeah, I wish them all the best luck, too. Not only because I think they deserved it (i think they did good work), but also because they never said they left ppc world totally and forever. Having earned some money and additional reputation, maybe a new ppc project may be a good addition to the portfolio. But the current priority is of course to get the EfikaMX successfully to the market. But who knows what the futre may bring...

[ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/6/23 3:36 ]

> 2006 or whenever that was that Genesi didn't close the deal
> on a 5121e-based self-contained unit.

Not before 2007.

http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1004385

> as far as I know it's the only OS that runs on 5121e-based computers.

"This includes support for popular real-time operating systems from Green Hills, QNX and Wind River, as well as open-source Linux solutions."
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC5121e

> a few years back the 5121 would have been nice, but today it is too little. does
> your cherry pal replay DVD quality video? I think that would be minimum today.

I think that need for DVD quality video replay capability is not something that came up only during the last 3 years ;-)

> And a bit too much for teh e300/400.

Does anybody know if the AXE unit is actually used on the MPC5121e based devices from THTF/MTC/LimePC/Cherrypal running Linux?

> *If* freescale came out with asome 512x sporting an e300/600 that could be
> something interesting still.

It's not that there're no 600+ MHz e300 core based processors:

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8347E
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8349E
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8360E
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8377E
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8378E
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC8379E

Why not take PowerQUICC II Pro (starting at 39.12 USD for 667 MHz MPC8377E, 46.16 USD for 800 MHz) instead of MobileGT (starting at 22.08 USD for 400 MHz MPC5121e) if it must be e300?

The cheapest one is also the most desktop suited one. MPC8377E has DDR2 RAM controller, one PCI, two PCIe x1 (or one PCIe x2), two SATA2, two GbE, USB 2.0. Anything important missing with that chip? Ah yes, a GPU and AC'97. These are the only real disadvantages I can spot over the MPC5121e. For that, a single chip like the SM502 (which is on the Sam460EX) combining 2D GPU and AC'97 (and more) might be sufficient.

Discussions of the MPC8377E:
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1502
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1478&start=75 (I see that you took part in that one)
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6096&forum=11&start=40#60451

> they never said they left ppc world totally and forever.

You don't have to say you leave something totally and forever to leave it totally and forever ;-)

Quote:

And that was the easy one, at least a driver for AXE did exist. The biggest feature of the MPC5121e was its PowerVR Lite 3D core, for which there's never been a public driver...

I fear even the CherryPal/LimePC, being consumer products, are still severely crippled by unefficient software. Which, in turn, can only be because of inefficient management. And I'm not talking power management, those techniques to save battery life...

> its PowerVR Lite 3D core, for which there's never been a public driver...

Really? Not even in Linux binary form? I've been under the impression that the driver just wasn't open sourced. (A MorphOS driver would have to be developed from docs either way.)

> I fear even the CherryPal/LimePC, being consumer products, are still
> severely crippled by unefficient software.

It would be interesting to see if the pre-installed Linux OS on the LimeBook/Linkbook or the C114/C120/LimeBox/X1 supports the 3D core of the MPC5121e. A real shame if it doesn't.

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:24 ]

Quote:

Sadly true. And, in the manufacturer's view, if the product is "fine" for its current market (not to mention lifespan)... then don't waste a dime on making it obviously better.

Shamefully, those PowerVR and AXE cores you've paid for stay idle. There's public information and driver for the AXE, but I bet Imagination Technologies would request you a lot of money for the PowerVR documentation.

Sometimes I think technology is actually going backwads instead of forward. With sittuations like this, it's easy to believe that the anti-amigan "use the CPU for all" idea is best.

Quote:

Nope, its just stagnating. If technology was going backward we might see the Amiga become a popular, well supported system again.

> I bet Imagination Technologies would request you a lot of money
> for the PowerVR documentation.

Concluding from past postings on powerdeveloper.org, THTF/Cherrypal or whoever could even obtain driver source from Imagination Technologies and distribute a binary if they wanted:

http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9045#9045
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9534#9534
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10238#10238

I don't know the costs of such license though.

That just seems so counter productive. Try to sell a product. Demand additional payment for documentation and licensing.

Quote:

Very, very revealing. Well, actually not revealing at all, because that's something I had actually red, so it was already revealed... Three years ago!

Quote:

Look, that is the prob with the 5121. It is on the market now for quite a while and *still* it isn't supported well. But time is a limited resource?and hardware progesses in the mean time, too. Nobody is interesed in a 400 MHz e300 for general computing any more. Yes, it does some job (I like my Efika), but the more the merrier. Instead of wasting resources to finally get support better stop it when you see it is too much work and decide for another product. In ppc-land that probably means for very low cost to better use some PowerQICC (Andreas mentioned it again) or maybe chose a chip from Applied Micro (no e300s though). The 5121 sounded nice back then, but it didn't kept promises and time has moved on. The idea of a 5121 and general computing better gets buried, RIP.