AmiWest 2017 Demo
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 817 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    When I was watching that new IBrowse demo I happened to comment to an OS4 user that it looked no faster than the old 68k IBrowse on my G3 Pegasos.

    He replied that it looked much faster than the old *PPC-native IBrowse with emulated MUI3.9* on his AmigaONE/OS4. Suddenly the idea of resurrecting a decades-old browser made sense.

    (*Edited to clarify)

    [ Edited by KennyR 23.10.2017 - 21:32 ]
  • »23.10.17 - 19:40
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 817 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Did MorphOS on X5000 ever get demoed at Amiwest? I watched the stream at its allocated slot and they apparently cancelled it because they couldn't get the projector to work with its video output. Must have been really frustrating for Acill.
  • »23.10.17 - 19:49
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Did MorphOS on X5000 ever get demoed at Amiwest? I watched the stream at its allocated slot and they apparently cancelled it because they couldn't get the projector to work with its video output. Must have been really frustrating for Acill.


    No, Acill decided not to do it as the quality of the display when feed into their equipment wasn't as good as he would have liked.

    He did give one on one demos to the attendees. I too would have liked to have seen a broadcast demo, but Paul felt it would have reflected poorly on MorphOS. And as his system is set up in a configuration that is supported by OS4, I can understand his concern, since apparently the display was fine locally.


    Maybe its time for AmiWest to consider upgrading their streaming hardware. I can understand the nostalgia value of a video toaster setup, but its not really adequate for processing the video signals from newer hardware.

    The displays from systems running OS4 were also quite blurry and distorted on the stream. For the most part, I could not make out the text in those images. It was adequate for rendering game displays, but for productivity applications it definitely left something to be desired.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 19:59
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    zbysiuk
    Posts: 48 from 2006/8/4
    Quote:

    I don‘t think the X5000 is needed for this or that most declared it was. The new concepts (64-bit, SMP etc.) can be very well tested on G5 Macs. Or which concept is it that can be tested on the X5000 but not on a G5 Mac?


    You're right.
    So, the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic. I'm a supporter of PPC, but I try to be rational too - such a computer for 2k is a bit too much, especially since we have G5.
  • »23.10.17 - 20:08
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    zbysiuk wrote:
    Quote:

    I don‘t think the X5000 is needed for this or that most declared it was. The new concepts (64-bit, SMP etc.) can be very well tested on G5 Macs. Or which concept is it that can be tested on the X5000 but not on a G5 Mac?


    You're right.
    So, the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic. I'm a supporter of PPC, but I try to be rational too - such a computer for 2k is a bit too much, especially since we have G5.


    Well, I don't have to pay VAT, so my price is a little lower than the price most of you would get.
    And I do look at this as the last PPC system I will be purchasing.
    And short of trying to find a SAM460, I don't have any other options to use the new video card support (other than wait for an ISA shift - and I'm not that patient).

    As to success of the port (or lack of), well its already running on several X5000s and it hasn't even been released yet.
    And I intend to register a copy.
    If only a handful of people join me, that will make it more successful than the SAM460 port. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 20:25
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    zbysiuk
    Posts: 48 from 2006/8/4
    Quote:

    Well, I don't have to pay VAT, so my price is a little lower than the price most of you would get.
    And I do look at this as the last PPC system I will be purchasing.
    And short of trying to find a SAM460, I don't have any other options to use the new video card support (other than wait for an ISA shift - and I'm not that patient).


    No hard feelings, I understend you perfectly. In my case 1k would be acceptable, so as you can see nostalgie has its price :)
  • »23.10.17 - 20:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    zbysiuk wrote:
    Quote:

    Well, I don't have to pay VAT, so my price is a little lower than the price most of you would get.
    And I do look at this as the last PPC system I will be purchasing.
    And short of trying to find a SAM460, I don't have any other options to use the new video card support (other than wait for an ISA shift - and I'm not that patient).


    No hard feelings, I understend you perfectly. In my case 1k would be acceptable, so as you can see nostalgie has its price :)


    No, I can understand the basic economic concerns involved in this purchase, when an 11,2 PowerMac would probably outperform the purchase of $2000 (or more) of new hardware.

    Its part of what makes the entire OS4 proposition seem so untenable.
    $2000 for an adequate system, or $500 for an inadequate compromise system versus $100< for an 11,2 PowerMac.

    Weird, huh?

    It IS time we moved to commodity hardware, because this custom stuff is a bad proposition.

    I'm just looking at the purchase of an X5000 as an collectable example of our last PPC stuff, I wouldn't recommend the purchase to another person.

    Its not rational. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 20:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful
    > unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic.

    I guess most nostalgics would prefer a G5 Mac to an X5000 ;-)
  • »23.10.17 - 21:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the entire Morphos x5000 project in the context of usefulness is unsuccessful
    > unless one wants to buy new equipment with warranty or like Jim is nostalgic.

    I guess most nostalgics would prefer a G5 Mac to an X5000 ;-)


    I suppose it depends on your focus.
    Until OSX you would not have caught me dead on a Mac.
    I REALLY didn't like the platform (too inflexible).

    But the G5s are pretty cool.
    And unlike many of you, I actually like the water cooled systems as they are still rather exotic.

    But as nostalgia value goes, I'm assuming that in he future the X5000 will have more of that for me, being Amiga specific.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.10.17 - 21:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    It IS time we moved to commodity hardware, because this custom stuff is a bad proposition.

    I'm just looking at the purchase of an X5000 as an collectable example of our last PPC stuff, I wouldn't recommend the purchase to another person.

    Its not rational. ;-)


    That was exactly my thinking when I first thought about ordering my X1000. I was not expecting Trevor to be crazy enough to continue spending so much money on further AmigaOne designs and production costs. Later, when I learned that the X5000 was going to be produced, I still thought that the X1000 was a special computer, so I went forward with my purchase plans, even after Trevor advised me that I might be better off waiting for the X5000. If I had known for sure that MorphOS was going to be ported to the X5000, I would have cancelled my order for the X1000, and switched to a purchase of the X5000. Still, my X1000 is a nice system for running AmigaOS4.1FE, and some day within the next ten years, it might get a free copy of AmigaOS4.2, but I'm not holding my breath for that to arrive.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »24.10.17 - 18:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1908 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Hi everyone,
    Well the live streaming demo didn't happen because of the strange way they routed video out of my machine and into a series of switchers and a video toaster 2000 setup I think. It was causing all kinds of sync issues. I didn't want to show the public this crap so I refused to stream it.

    What I did do is demo it at the table and let it run most of the day Saturday. We tried again Sunday afternoon with the same issues. So I was sadly only able to show it one on one. It was very well received however and surprised a lot of people that looked at it.

    some STRANG to me at least things I noticed from "Amiga" users commenting on MorphOS

    1. They don't understand the panels?? I don't get this one, I explained they are just like Amidock and work quite a bit like them, once showing how to create a new one and add applications to it I THINK it cleared it up.

    2. SYS and MosSYS, many sisnt get that the system is split into its own complete dir structure away from what applications use when they install. Once I showed them it was a mirror of sys they liked it and thought it was a great idea, others asked why go to all the work reproducing a mirror of the system drawers, and when they crash OS4.1 and need to install from a rogue app I just laughed at them.

    3. They say they don't like the blue looking defaults and it confuses them, so I showed them a build I did making it look exactly like OS4.1 and it shuts them up a bit.

    4. I had to change out my R250X video card and put in a R230. They made life hell asking why newer cards are not supported. I mostly said because before the X5000 we didn't have a system that would take a newer card and it will now come once its public. This is one we really need to look at long and hard. I know Bigfoot is working hard on this and I am not to worried about it.

    5. The comments on how fast it is over 4.1 made me feel good. Boot up is a fraction of the time it take to boot 4.1 and that was so awesome to see people freak out when they say it boot in under 3 seconds compared to what it takes 4.1, which is considerable more time!

    Thanks to Bigfoot for trusting in me to show this. Amiwest is far from an AmigaOS 4 show. They want more AROS and MorphOS presence and I want to be able to give them all I can every year!! Next year I hope we can get things moving a bit sooner and be ready. I am also going to bring my own projector and video switching hardware. Its amazing just how bad the hotels service was!
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 (Registration #1894)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    Need Repairs, upgrades or a recap in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »24.10.17 - 19:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > newer cards are not supported [...] because before the X5000 we didn't have a system
    > that would take a newer card

    The Sam460 has been supported since MorphOS 3.8, which was released 2½ years ago.

    > it will now come once its public. [...] I know Bigfoot is working hard on this

    I hope drivers for GCN-based cards (which is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe) won't take long.
  • »24.10.17 - 21:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2031 from 2003/6/4
    Acill, thanks for presenting and your interesting report from the show.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.10.17 - 21:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf...I hope drivers for GCN-based cards (which is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe) won't take long.


    Unless they want to dual boot Linux, then they don't 😋

    Since very few of us have a PCI-E MorphOS system, the new driver aren't,t going to benefit many of us.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 13:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> GCN-based cards [...] is what OS4 users use primarily in PCIe

    > Unless they want to dual boot Linux, then they don't 😋

    Hence "primarily". I believe most PCIe-based OS4 systems do not have Linux installed.

    > Since very few of us have a PCI-E MorphOS system, the new driver aren't,t going
    > to benefit many of us.

    My rationale is more about "them" who could become part of "us" than about "us" as of now, the potentially enlarged future "us" so to speak :-)
  • »25.10.17 - 14:01
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    GCN cards function under Linux PowerPC .
    No gpu assisted 3D of video playback though .
    I use a GCN card .
  • »25.10.17 - 14:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    GCN cards function under Linux PowerPC .
    No gpu assisted 3D of video playback though .
    I use a GCN card .




    Lack of 3D acceleration is a deal killer for me, but I should have pointed out that qualifier.
    In any case, since we aren't talking about extremely powerful CPUs, and I can find Terascale 2 gpus that clean the clock of some of those used on GCN based boards common in OS4 systems.

    As to the card Paul used, a Radeon R5 230, if I was going to use a Caicos based card, I would have picked the older Radeon HD 8490.
    It's faster.

    And the drivers Paul's system has will work with some lower end 8000 and 7000 series cards, as well as higher end cards like the HD 6870 (which can be had really cheaply right now and has very good OS4 and Linux support).

    Right now, GCN Gen1 doesn't really interest me, Gen2 and above (which Hans be Ruiter announced he was developing for), THOSE definitely have my attention.
    Particularly the RX 560, which is cheap AND powerful.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 15:30
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    As AmigaOS 4.x is my #1 OS ,I have what works best for AmigaOS 4.x as my default.

    Some interesting comments from SSolie in response to a question here
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=832137&postcount=7


    [ Edited by Spectre660 25.10.2017 - 11:44 ]
  • »25.10.17 - 15:40
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    As AmigaOS 4.x is my #1 OS ,I have what works best for AmigaOS 4.x as my default.

    Some interesting comments from SSolie in response to a question here
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=832137&postcount=7



    The only problem with that comment is its not coming from the guy developing the video drivers.
    But as they are gigantic parallel processors, there are some interesting possibilities offered by using the GPU.

    OS4 is now your primary OS? interesting.

    As I had the chance to explore AMD video cards from the R600 to GCN Gen2, one thing I did notice is that it really depends on what you're running with each gpu.
    The GCN cards really shine when combined with DX11.1 or 12.
    Under Open GL and older versions of Direct X, its a little less clear cut.

    If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4 than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.
    BUT, GCN does shine in GPGPU applications, and its the future, so going that way makes sense.

    Again, these later cards will prove interesting.

    Mark mentioned to me awhile ago that he'd polled the Radeon R7 260X he had on hand and had gotten info back from it similar to what Hans mentioned.
    But de Ruiter is ahead of him, since Bigfoot insisted of supporting the intervening cards between our current support and the support included in 3.10.

    Obviously, since we have different primary OS', my criteria for video card selection will be different than yours. Luckily support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good if I want to experiment with that.

    Linux? I'll probably install and after playing with it delete it or leave it unused.

    It takes to long to boot on NG hardware. And if I was serious, I'd just load it on one of my X64 systems.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.10.2017 - 11:10 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.10.17 - 16:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Lack of 3D acceleration is a deal killer for me [...]. [...]
    > the HD 6870 [...] has very good OS4 [...] support

    OS4 completely lacks 3D support for it.
  • »25.10.17 - 22:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If the GCN cards vended with the X5000 perform significantly better under OS4
    > than say a high end Northern Islands , I'd be somewhat surprised.

    At least in terms of 3D acceleration the GCN cards perform infinitely better ;-)

    > support for Northern Islands under OS4 is pretty good

    See my previous comment.
  • »25.10.17 - 22:38
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Debaser
    Posts: 161 from 2005/7/12
    From: Syracuse, NY, USA
    Acill and all involved:

    Thanks for supporting Morphos at Amiwest this year. Cool to read your feedback and observations as well. I am really looking forward to installing 3.10 on my X5000.
  • »26.10.17 - 15:35
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    Brings to mind another question :
    Will a separate hard drive be required or can AmigaOS 4.1 and Morphos 3.10 be installed on the same hard drive ?

    Quote:

    Debaser wrote:
    Acill and all involved:

    Thanks for supporting Morphos at Amiwest this year. Cool to read your feedback and observations as well. I am really looking forward to installing 3.10 on my X5000.
  • »26.10.17 - 15:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1908 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    As long as you have SFS you can put it on the same drive partitioned sure.
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
    Powerbook 1.67GHZ
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 (Registration #1894)
    A4000T CSPPC, Mediator
    Need Repairs, upgrades or a recap in the USA? Visit my website at http://www.acill.com
  • »27.10.17 - 15:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > As long as you have SFS you can put it on the same drive partitioned sure.

    How is the filesystem relevant for this and why is it restricted to SFS? Do you mean the MorphOS boot partition, the MorphOS system partition or both?
  • »27.10.17 - 22:22
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