Discussion of the Tabor / A1222 mainboard
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia?

    > JIT for 68k is not the only problem [...]. On amigaworld there were some
    > benchmarks to compare Tabor with other platforms
    > [...]
    > Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -
    > Qupzilla 1.8.6
    > Score: 91.3
    > [...]
    > Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot smp kernel
    > Qupzilla 1.8.6
    > Score: 158
    > [...]
    > I think numbers speak for themselves...

    Indeed. They show that regarding JavaScript performance on Linux there's no problem at all with the Tabor's embedded FPU compared to PPC platforms with standard FPU. But that's with everything specifically compiled for e500v2, which we learned from Hyperionmp won't be the case with OS4. (I don't know to what extent hardware floating point is used by Qupzilla when running this benchmark, though.)
  • »10.11.15 - 08:05
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    The only resonable conclusion is to get AmigaOS 4 to _barely_ work with the Tabor card. It seems resonable to believe that the whole point of it is to make a motherboard as cheap as possible. This can be viewed in three ways:

    1. It's good that they try to make something really cheap as hardware for AmigaOS 4 is always expensive, and speed is not an issue anyway. What is important is to be able to use AmigaOS 4 and it's native software. If it can play HD movies or not is not important.

    2. Since I (who ever holds this view) think price/performance is important, I think this board is not only horribly overpriced compared to PC motherboards that is sold in their millions, it's also crippled by a incompatible FPU and therefore even slower, unnecessarily. I want my AmigaOS to be more than just a hobby, I want it to compete with the other OS:es so for me it's important that it doesn't have technical limitations that can't eventually be fixed satisfactory. Come to think about it, let's skip PPC altogether and switch to x86 right away. I bet no one has ever suggested that before.

    3. Don't ever EVER talk bad about anything AmigaOS 4 related. It's all lies. Or if you can prove it's no lies it's not important. If it's important, then ... yeah ... well you SUCK!

    So it's either a toy, a hopeless mistake or religion. The first view I can respect because then it's clearly a hobby. The second I can respect if you don't mock people for having the first view. The third view is just noise.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »10.11.15 - 11:11
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 204 from 2015/8/23
    Amiga is hobby. Hobby may not be super cheap but has to be interesting.

    Amiga OS 4/Morphos are interesting because they

    a) run on something that is not a pc
    b) provide integration with old 68k software

    If you want people to support your idea of "switch" to x86 you have to provide something
    worth resignation from

    a) runnnig on something that is not a pc
    b) integration with old 68k software

    You have problem because:
    a)We have year 2015 and Amiga OS 4/Morphos/AROS are on pair with Windows 95.
    You cannot expect people to use on pc something as outdated as Windows 95.
    b)There will be not x86 version of many 68k software, because sources are lost.

    Attacks on powerpc and Amiga Os 4 do not make sense.
    As long as you do not have something worth of use on x86 we amiga users will be still using our
    powerpc amigas.
  • »11.11.15 - 18:50
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    What's the difference between a X5000 and a PC when you remove the PPC, Xena and Xorro? I'm not saying wanting to use PPC isn't reason enough if you like, but everything from the Pegasos I up to today is much closer related to a off-the-shelf PC than the unique design of the Amiga.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »11.11.15 - 21:02
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 536 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    It's just like transubstantiation. When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga. Unless of course it's Apple branded, which is kind of ironic, since their boards have more custom designed components than any of the A-Eon boards allegedly "attacked" here.
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »12.11.15 - 07:44
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1660 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > morphos is [...] too slow

    Really? It feels way faster than OSX or Linux on the same machine.



    And it's not only GUI and usability which is faster on MorphOS, but also the tasks which are mostly based on the raw power/performance. For example video playback is much faster on MorphOS than on OSX. We once made some tests on Mac mini and came to conclusion, that MorphOS plays the same video with about 20% less CPU load, and since then, the MorphOS gfx drivers were optimized more giving about 20% boost to its video playback performance (overlay optimizing introduced some versions again). So, the speed difference is even greater nowadays.


    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    Amiga is hobby. Hobby may not be super cheap but has to be interesting.

    Amiga OS 4/Morphos are interesting because they

    a) run on something that is not a pc
    b) provide integration with old 68k software



    I don't agree with a) either. It hasn't been about the HW that much since you started to put PC components in your classic Amigas (gfx cards, audio cards, network cards, USB cards, etc). And definitely not after going to "next gen" where almost everything is based to industry standards. PC as a HW isn't any problem nowadays like it used to be in early 90s.

    b) has been my major reason to get into MorphOS, so I agree there.


    Quote:

    If you want people to support your idea of "switch" to x86 you have to provide something
    worth resignation from

    a) runnnig on something that is not a pc
    b) integration with old 68k software



    a) isn't a problem at all for the most. Maybe even preferrable option generally, because you just can't make that much better HW than mainstream nowadays. The pace on HW development is such quick that it's just impossible to try to compete with the big players. Price is also a point and what people have been complaining with next gen things.

    b) is getting less and less important. Of course I love the compatibility still, but in the coming years it gets more and more marginal because native options are replacing legacy options and legacy software is aging more and more. You won't get legacy 68k software updated anymore and it'll eat their usability with the time.

    Even if MorphOS drops 68k compatibility, it still preserves the amigaish identity and principles how the whole OS works. You still have the familiar structure, components, and usability from the Amiga world, the reason why we all are using this thing. We get new software which still works in Amiga way and old software is actually pretty small part in the big picture.


    [ Edited by jPV 12.11.2015 - 10:27 ]
  • »12.11.15 - 08:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga.

    I don't think so. Before the Pegasos II was supported by OS4, it surely wasn't considered an Amiga by OS4 fans. This changed virtually overnight. Accordingly, the Pegasos I never seemed to be considered an Amiga. So the criterion for them seems to be the (announced) support by OS4, which makes sense if you think about it.
  • »12.11.15 - 08:50
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1073 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga.

    I don't think so. Before the Pegasos II was supported by OS4, it surely wasn't considered an Amiga by OS4 fans. This changed virtually overnight. Accordingly, the Pegasos I never seemed to be considered an Amiga. So the criterion for them seems to be the (announced) support by OS4, which makes sense if you think about it.


    Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »12.11.15 - 10:34
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1660 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga.

    I don't think so. Before the Pegasos II was supported by OS4, it surely wasn't considered an Amiga by OS4 fans. This changed virtually overnight. Accordingly, the Pegasos I never seemed to be considered an Amiga. So the criterion for them seems to be the (announced) support by OS4, which makes sense if you think about it.


    Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?


    Looks like it... isn't the newly announced A.L.I.C.E. just that?
  • »12.11.15 - 10:43
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1229 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?


    No, because, like the fabled Mac Mini port, it is not officially supported / sanctioned :-)
  • »12.11.15 - 10:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 536 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga.

    I don't think so. Before the Pegasos II was supported by OS4, it surely wasn't considered an Amiga by OS4 fans. This changed virtually overnight. Accordingly, the Pegasos I never seemed to be considered an Amiga. So the criterion for them seems to be the (announced) support by OS4, which makes sense if you think about it.

    I have to agree with the OS4 part, but the Pegasos II is a bit of an exception. I have got the impression that it's not considered an Amiga by many because its ties with the blue camp, but I could be wrong about this.
    To refine my condition: has a PPC CPU and it's officially supported by OS4. :)


    [ Edited by BSzili 12.11.2015 - 12:17 ]
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »12.11.15 - 11:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?

    > isn't the newly announced A.L.I.C.E. just that?

    Is A.L.I.C.E. officially endorsed by Hyperion? It seems to be an AmiKit project.

    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153623048664280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10152402112049280.1073741826.113127184279/10153627951184280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153646355779280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153669758664280/
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/651837613251371008
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/654400428633944066
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/656426471725121536
    http://forum.amiga.sk/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&topic=1498#msg6425

    I'm not sure about the kind of A-Eon's involvement, though.
  • »12.11.15 - 11:46
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    Starting from 15:08 of Trevor's 2015 Amiwest presentation .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keq73eymtPM


    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Does a PC running OS4 under emulation become an Amiga now?

    > isn't the newly announced A.L.I.C.E. just that?

    Is A.L.I.C.E. officially endorsed by Hyperion? It seems to be an AmiKit project.

    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153623048664280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10152402112049280.1073741826.113127184279/10153627951184280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153646355779280/
    http://www.facebook.com/AmiKit/photos/a.10151489080964280.1073741825.113127184279/10153669758664280/
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/651837613251371008
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/654400428633944066
    http://twitter.com/AmiKit_Amiga/status/656426471725121536
    http://forum.amiga.sk/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&topic=1498#msg6425

    I'm not sure about the kind of A-Eon's involvement, though.
  • »12.11.15 - 12:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I'm not sure about the kind of A-Eon's involvement, though.

    > Starting from 15:08 of Trevor's 2015 Amiwest presentation .
    > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keq73eymtPM

    Even after watching I'm still not sure whether or not this is going to be an official A-Eon product.
  • »12.11.15 - 17:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    It is.
    A-Eon seem to be able to get various individuals and groups together for collaboration on projects .

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> I'm not sure about the kind of A-Eon's involvement, though.

    > Starting from 15:08 of Trevor's 2015 Amiwest presentation .
    > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keq73eymtPM

    Even after watching I'm still not sure whether or not this is going to be an official A-Eon product.
  • »12.11.15 - 17:47
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1229 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    It is.
    A-Eon seem to be able to get various individuals and groups together for collaboration on projects.

    Yet, Hyperion Entertainment's representative at the show reiterated that systems running WinUAE are not officially supported... Given the terms of the software license, running the OS on this piece of hardware is legally questionable (depending on where you live, etc) so it is not all moonlight and roses, I am afraid.
  • »12.11.15 - 18:36
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    It's pretty obvious that they want people to use FE in emulation (lots of potential extra revenue) but they can't of course say that outright. I saw some emulated FE at Neuss and Hyperion didn't go there demanding them to shut it off. Most probably they just pretended not seeing it.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »12.11.15 - 20:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they can't of course say that outright.

    Why is that?
  • »12.11.15 - 21:55
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1982 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Legal reasons I suppose.


    My guess is more a combination of ideoligy and not wanting to support something while stll taking the money.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »13.11.15 - 08:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2639 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    BSzili wrote:
    It's just like transubstantiation. When you put a PPC CPU on a motherboard, it turns into an Amiga. Unless of course it's Apple branded, which is kind of ironic, since their boards have more custom designed components than any of the A-Eon boards allegedly "attacked" here.


    I think this post was excellent in every way!

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »13.11.15 - 19:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2639 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Legal reasons I suppose.


    My guess is more a combination of ideoligy and not wanting to support something while stll taking the money.


    Definitely! Support means responsibility! Taking money is just sweet...

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »13.11.15 - 21:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think this post was excellent in every way!

    Even the author does not think so anymore :-)
  • »13.11.15 - 22:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10999 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Even after watching I'm still not sure whether or not this is going to be an
    >> official A-Eon product.

    > It is.

    Press release (4 weeks late):

    http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/News_Release_ALICE.pdf
  • »14.11.15 - 06:59
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 536 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I think this post was excellent in every way!

    Even the author does not think so anymore :-)


    Maybe not in every way, but even I can't deny it's excellence. I wouldn't want to be accused of false modesty :D
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »14.11.15 - 08:50
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