Discussion of the Tabor / A1222 mainboard
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1929 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Cego schrieb:
    hey bumbum,

    i'm an OS4 fanboy? i dont even have an OS4 capable machine.

    You too understand the difference between making an enthusiasts/hobby oriented business and profit oriented business. A-EON is not interested in any kind of competition or maximising their profits, so they're not comparable in any way to Apple or Microsoft business. On the other side they are also no charity, but they have to make money to keep investing and developing. I honour that. Others start insulting their hard work and i'm not ok with that. A-EON does it to deliver new stuff for the amiga market and to keep the community alive with new stuff. why? because they are enthusiasts themselves. Just like Mr. Does from Vesalia or Jens or anybody else. So taking that into perspective i can hardly judge and talk so harsh and disrespectful about their mistakes. As i said, there is no alternative when it comes to new hardware because there is no other producer interested in developing new amiga ng hardware. take it or leave it. you don't like it, then don't buy it, but please stop being disrespectful towards people who dont share your point of view.




    Well, as i said earlier a small community doesn't make a bad decion a good one.
    The cpu choice of the Tabor is a bad one. And the e500v2 problems for Amigaish systems are known since many years. But for some reason they've chosen that cpu. Sorry, it's a bad decicion and while I credit where credit is due I also criticize when it's due. And here it is. The Tabor doen't earn my credit.
    And if A-Eon goes belly up - so what? I 'll don't cry a tear for them, yet they offered nothing appealing to me. Quite the contrary. IMHO they rather poisoned the market with that silly X1000. And now this incompatible e500v2 based Tabor. At least the X5000 is a bit more interesting.

    But who cares? Eventually it's a decision by feet (i.e. EUR or whatever currency). I will probably not buy into Tabor. And I suggest not to support it by MorphOS. It would detract dev resources for no significant benefit.If the port is a three day effort though, then do it (but that's probably not the case).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »03.11.15 - 22:29
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 592 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    whats wrong with you guys? its ok to insult the work of other people and be arrogant but as soon as someone's getting back to you you're all sensitive. i never said its wrong to criticize and talk about mistakes and wrong decisions. i just dont like the attitude and arrogance of how they do it.

    and morphos will never ever cut its ties to its amiga legacy. everything in morphos is amiga inspired and just by breaking the compatibility you wont shift into a totally different system which has nothing to do with Amiga. just by stating that morphos will have nothing to do with amiga Community anymore proves how disillusioned you are. do you have any grief or Trouble with the amiga and the community? morphos is the most Amiga-ish OS in my opinion! maybe you should switch to linux if getting away from Amiga and its community is that important to you. lol

    [ Edited by Cego 04.11.2015 - 00:13 ]
    Powerbook G4@1,67GHz, 2GB DDR2 Ram, Radeon 9700, 60GB SSD, MorphOS 3.7
    PowerMac Dual G5 @2.3GHz, 4GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9600XT, 2x250GB HD, MorphOS 3.7, MacOS X Leopard 10.5.8
  • »03.11.15 - 23:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > you keep BSing about everything the "others" put out [...]. dont get at me with that
    > "i wanna buy an X5000 and think its nice bla bla" BS. You just proved many times
    > by the way you talk about A-EON [...] how you really feel about them.

    You must be new around here else you would know that Jim is easily the biggest X5000 fan on MorphZone, and he has made no secret of it. So it's clear who does the "BSing" here.

    > our devs are the only ones doing an amazing job.

    That's just unfair towards the 3rd party developers of MorphOS software.

    > the users just sit around [...] actually doing nothing.

    That's why they are users, not developers, right? :-)

    > regarding your so called arguments: they are no arguments. talking about price/power
    > arguments is ridiculous as a morphos user.

    Now you're getting your interlocutors mixed up. redrumloa is the one with the price arguments, not Jim (you remember, the one interested in the X5000).
  • »03.11.15 - 23:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > You said they are doing it for the profit

    No, that was redrumloa, not Jim.
  • »03.11.15 - 23:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the evaluation boards could be bought direct, so it was no secret what the markup
    > for slapping a boing sticker on those boards was.

    Eyetech didn't buy the boards from MAI (except maybe in the case of the 300 Micro-A1 boards, IIRC) but paid for their own production runs at FIC. So you cannot conclude Eyetech's pre-markup costs from MAI's price.
  • »03.11.15 - 23:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The only MorphOS machine I saw there besides the MorphOS Team was my Mac Mini.

    From pictures I saw that the AmigaRacer author presented his game on a MorphOS machine.
  • »03.11.15 - 23:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Let me quote my very good description of the problem.

    Let me link to my reply:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11387&start=50 :-)
  • »03.11.15 - 23:57
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Amiga OS for x86 should be source compatybile, well tested, open source boopsi,MUI,datatypes reimplementation over unix kernel.
    As long as something like that not exist there is no reasons to "swith" to x86.
    Attacks on powerpc, companies like a-eon has no sense at all.
  • »04.11.15 - 00:23
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Others start insulting their hard work [...]. [...] the least i would do is
    > to insult anybodys work.

    Calling a bad decision a bad decision is no insult. And can work even be insulted?

    > i can hardly judge and talk so harsh and disrespectful about their mistakes. [...] please stop
    > being disrespectful towards people who dont share your point of view. [...] Its about respect
    > and honouring their hard work.

    Calling a bad decision a bad decision is no disrespect. And why should someone who thinks Tabor is a mistake honour it?

    > there is no other producer interested in developing new amiga ng hardware.

    There won't be anything new from ACube anymore?

    > that was 15 years ago or so

    More like 10.

    > When A-EONs gone, theres no new hardware

    If A-Eon will be gone due to Tabor becoming a failure thanks to its unfortunate choice of CPU, it will be A-Eon's fault alone, not the one of those pointing out this mistake.

    > when os4's gone there's no community

    Just no OS4 community.

    > They do things and take steps to bring the system further.

    I don't doubt their good intentions, but regarding Tabor I have severe doubts about the quality of execution.

    > i didnt start that very thread with an insult.

    You can't insult inanimate things like a computer board.

    > morphos is [...] too slow

    Really? It feels way faster than OSX or Linux on the same machine.

    > OS4 is just as expensive as MorphOS

    OS4 is way cheaper than MorphOS (ignoring the hardware cost, that is).
  • »04.11.15 - 00:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2665 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    These guys are no match for the logic and nearly perfect recall (plus great search and link capabilities) of AW!
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »04.11.15 - 00:36
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    whats wrong with you guys? its ok to insult the work of other people and be arrogant but as soon as someone's getting back to you you're all sensitive. i never said its wrong to criticize and talk about mistakes and wrong decisions. i just dont like the attitude and arrogance of how they do it.


    Point out where I "insulted" someone at A-Eonkit in this thread. You are imagining things. "Arrogance" is in the eye of the beholder.

    Quote:


    and morphos will never ever cut its ties to its amiga legacy. everything in morphos is amiga inspired and just by breaking the compatibility you wont shift into a totally different system which has nothing to do with Amiga. just by stating that morphos will have nothing to do with amiga Community anymore proves how disillusioned you are. do you have any grief or Trouble with the amiga and the community? morphos is the most Amiga-ish OS in my opinion! maybe you should switch to linux if getting away from Amiga and its community is that important to you. lol


    MorphOS will certainly break ties with it's Amiga legacy IMO, as it should. There are 3 NG solutions out there all heading in different directions. Ever since the very first OS4 release, the last NG solution out of the gate, they have been diverging. AROS and MorphOS had some similarities, but HYPErion decided to go in another direction entirely. Now that MorphOS has matured on the PPC, there is really nowhere else to go. PPC is a dead end. When MorphOS was conceived, legacy support was a good idea. Today it is huge boat anchor whose chain needs cut.

    OS4 will seemingly continue on PPC until the last router grade (Haynie's term, not mine) cpu is made, clinging to what compatibility it can to OS3.X all along. MorphOS will change ISA (hopefully X86-64) throwing all compatibility and many legacy concepts out the window. When MorphOS-NG arrives it will likely have very little resemblance to MorphOS of today. I wouldn't be surprised to see the overlap of discussions between the NG solutions taper away to almost nothing rather quickly.
  • »04.11.15 - 00:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    Amiga OS for x86 should be source compatybile, well tested, open source boopsi,MUI,datatypes reimplementation over unix kernel.
    As long as something like that not exist there is no reasons to "swith" to x86.
    Attacks on powerpc, companies like a-eon has no sense at all.


    MorphOS is not AmigaOS and never pretended to be. The MorphOS Team has no plan to try something as you suggest at all. You may find something like that from an AROS branch.

    I hope this helps.
  • »04.11.15 - 00:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > OS4 will seemingly continue on PPC until the last router grade (Haynie's term, not mine)
    > cpu is made

    There's still IBM POWER after that ;-)

    And regarding Haynie:

    "P5020 or other P5 series chip [...] are decent enough to say you have modern application processing performance [...]."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33564&forum=25&start=280#610666

    This was in 2011, though.
  • »04.11.15 - 00:52
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    And regarding Haynie:

    "P5020 or other P5 series chip [...] are decent enough to say you have modern application processing performance [...]."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33564&forum=25&start=280#610666

    This was in 2011, though.


    Thanks, I don't specifically remember that. So Haynie thought the CPU that ended up being chosen for the X5000 was fine in 2011. I wonder what his thoughts would be on them 5 years later when the X5000 is released.

    AW do you have any links for benchmarks of the P5 series chips compared to G5? I understand non are probably out yet for the X5000, but other sources?

    [ Edited by redrumloa 04.11.2015 - 08:41 ]
  • »04.11.15 - 12:40
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10758 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AW do you have any links for benchmarks of the P5 series chips compared to G5?

    Unfortunately none apart from the artificial Dhrystone ones.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=743

    > I understand non are probably out yet for the X5000, but other sources?

    As there're MorphOS developers and betatesters with X5000 at hand, I would expect them to publish MorphOS-centric benchmark figures anytime soon :-)
  • »04.11.15 - 13:19
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1190 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:

    Sorry dude, but you can count with both of your hands the active users in this forum. This is probably the only serious community site about morphos and theres not even one person to fix all the bugs here.

    If you bother to report a bug in the appropriate forum, you can rest assured that it will be looked into.
  • »04.11.15 - 14:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    These guys are no match for the logic and nearly perfect recall (plus great search and link capabilities) of AW!


    Amiga OS 4 / Morphos are interesting because

    1. they run on something which is not a pc

    2. they have integration with old 68k software

    3. they have mui

    mui in current state is litte behind 20 years old MFC from MSVC 4.0.

    and without ppc hardware Amiga OS 4 / Morphos are not worth of use.

    Morphos is little better than MS Windows 20 years ago, only beacuse NT 4.0 was released 19 years ago;)
  • »04.11.15 - 16:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    well there you have it. nobody said that we should become sheep. it seems as you only know living and thinking in extremes. The board is not the best there is, thats true but you got the answer for yourself. the other CPU was not available at that time, so they probably chose the best alternative for the tabor.

    And no, we do NOT have more NEW hardware configurations to chose from. The only new hardware available is the Sam460. The OS4 guys have the Sam440, 460 and X1000 and they're still getting more and more hardware with the X5000 and Tabor. Thats a luxury in such a small market and i do think that its more then fair to honour the people realizing that. WE have OLD and USED Mac Systems besides the Sam460 to choose from. So my original statement that the OS4 guys have more new hardware configs to choose from is true.


    The only new hardware available to buy that is supported by OS4 is the SAM460CR, which is also supported by MorphOS.

    The X5000 will be supported by both MorphOS and OS4.

    So that leaves the Tabor for hardware that will eventually run OS4 but not MorphOS.

    http://amigax1000.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/amigaone-x1000-sold-out.html?m=1


    @Cego

    There is no hardware available to buy brand new that runs either OS4 or MorphOS.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11415&post_id=122478&viewmode=flat&sortorder=1&showonepost=1

    Edit: Scratch that as I believe it's still possible to buy a new Efika in certain places so your argument has no basis in fact.

    [ Edited by Intuition 04.11.2015 - 18:13 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.11.15 - 17:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:Edit: Scratch that as I believe it's still possible to buy a new Efika in certain places so your argument has no basis in fact.


    Efika has been consistently, without any lapses.

    http://search.directron.com/newsearch.php?find=efika

    People here seem to forget that Genesi had Directron distribution partner. Directron is a major PC system builder and parts reseller.

    Directron doesn't play in the Amiga market at all, so getting numbers of how many they have in stock and how many they sell is not something we will ever get. I did call them back around ~2010 inquiring about buying out whatever stock they had left, and they were not interested in even entertaining the idea.

    This tells me that at least in 2010 they were selling at whatever was a reasonable rate to them. I'd also bet dollars for donuts that Amigakit tried the same thing in recent years. If they could buy out Directron's stock, they would sell better on an Amiga-centric site. I'm guessing Directron is still selling some boards.
  • »04.11.15 - 22:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    One thing I don't think is mention much here is Petunia. Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia? Isn't Petunia written in ASM, pretty much killing the idea of an easy adaptation to this CPU? How slow will this board be without JIT?
  • »09.11.15 - 17:27
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Petunia is not a problem.
    Most of 68k amiga software works without fpu.
    You will just have find proper version.
  • »09.11.15 - 17:36
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1957 from 2003/2/24
    @red
    Actually what little 68k-SW actually runs under Petunia (or the static emulator) is the least problem, even if they use the FPU as you just would have to change the translation tables to either use integer commonds directly or have it call a replacement function.

    [ Edited by Kronos 09.11.2015 - 19:44 ]
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »09.11.15 - 17:43
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 165 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    redrumloa schrieb:
    One thing I don't think is mention much here is Petunia. Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia? Isn't Petunia written in ASM, pretty much killing the idea of an easy adaptation to this CPU? How slow will this board be without JIT?


    JIT for 68k is not the only problem

    also there is no JIT for Odyssey available except at the moment for Aros. On amigaworld there were some benchmarks to compare Tabor with other platforms

    https://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v7/run.html

    i5 aros result (Odyssey 1.25 with JIT):

    Score: 11677
    Richards: 13634
    DeltaBlue: 11128
    Crypto: 14538
    Raytrace: 14962
    EarlyBoyer: 21832
    RegExp: 3594
    Splay: 6185
    NavierStrokes: 21602

    Sam460ex AmigaOS 4.1 FE

    Odyssey 1.23

    Score: 29.3
    Richards: 10.6
    DeltaBlue: 7.18
    Crypto: 51.9
    RayTrace: 32.1
    EarleyBoyer: 75.1
    RegExp: 11.3
    Splay: 60.8
    NavierStokes: 84.3

    Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -

    Qupzilla 1.8.6

    Score: 91.3
    Richards: 61.8
    DeltaBlue: 34.8
    Crypto: 108
    RayTrace: 92.9
    EarleyBoyer: 192
    RegExp: 31.3
    Splay: 246
    NavierStokes: 151

    Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot smp kernel

    Qupzilla 1.8.6

    Score: 158
    Richards: 105
    DeltaBlue: 90.7
    Crypto: 143
    RayTrace: 179
    EarleyBoyer: 391
    RegExp: 48.6
    Splay: 422
    NavierStokes: 198

    I think numbers speak for themselves... it is a wise decision from MorphOS devs to make a ISA change in future

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 09.11.2015 - 23:29 ]
  • »09.11.15 - 22:24
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1929 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    OlafSch schrieb:


    I think numbers speak for themselves... it is a wise decision from MorphOS devs to make a ISA change in future


    Worlds between JS on x64 JIt against ppc static. And while I am all for the ISA switch, I sill have hopes the ppc JS-JIT will see light of day to shorten the wait for MorphOS x64.

    Here's the result of my Powerbook 1.67Ghz.

    Score: 178
    Richards: 85.8
    DeltaBlue: 80.3
    Crypto: 183
    RayTrace: 260
    EarleyBoyer: 439
    RegExp: 54.3
    Splay: 652
    NavierStokes: 195
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »09.11.15 - 22:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1374 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    OlafSch wrote:
    Quote:

    redrumloa schrieb:
    One thing I don't think is mention much here is Petunia. Doesn't the lack of a proper FPU kill Petunia? Isn't Petunia written in ASM, pretty much killing the idea of an easy adaptation to this CPU? How slow will this board be without JIT?


    JIT for 68k is not the only problem

    also there is no JIT for Odyssey available except at the moment for Aros. On amigaworld there were some benchmarks to compare Tabor with other platforms

    https://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v7/run.html

    i5 aros result (Odyssey 1.25 with JIT):

    Score: 11677
    Richards: 13634
    DeltaBlue: 11128
    Crypto: 14538
    Raytrace: 14962
    EarlyBoyer: 21832
    RegExp: 3594
    Splay: 6185
    NavierStrokes: 21602

    Sam460ex AmigaOS 4.1 FE

    Odyssey 1.23

    Score: 29.3
    Richards: 10.6
    DeltaBlue: 7.18
    Crypto: 51.9
    RayTrace: 32.1
    EarleyBoyer: 75.1
    RegExp: 11.3
    Splay: 60.8
    NavierStokes: 84.3

    Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -

    Qupzilla 1.8.6

    Score: 91.3
    Richards: 61.8
    DeltaBlue: 34.8
    Crypto: 108
    RayTrace: 92.9
    EarleyBoyer: 192
    RegExp: 31.3
    Splay: 246
    NavierStokes: 151

    Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot smp kernel

    Qupzilla 1.8.6

    Score: 158
    Richards: 105
    DeltaBlue: 90.7
    Crypto: 143
    RayTrace: 179
    EarleyBoyer: 391
    RegExp: 48.6
    Splay: 422
    NavierStokes: 198

    I think numbers speak for themselves... it is a wise decision from MorphOS devs to make a ISA change in future

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 09.11.2015 - 23:29 ]


    Those numbers are brutal. Do we have X1000 numbers? Here's mine.

    PowerMac G5 @ 2.5Ghz
    OWB 1.24

    Score: 274
    Richards: 143
    DeltaBlue: 116
    Crypto: 274
    RayTrace: 401
    EarleyBoyer: 823
    RegExp: 74.4
    Splay: 836
    NavierStokes: 343

    [ Edited by redrumloa 09.11.2015 - 20:34 ]
  • »10.11.15 - 00:32
    Profile