>> Which MorphOS release was the first to come with MUI5?

> MorphOS 3.8.

Thanks. I'm surprised this jump in version number had not been addressed earlier.

> "...copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz" - that is just SO wrong.

Why (apart from the misspelled surname)?

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I think that's part of the rub here. I don't mean that condescending in any way, it just helps frame things. MorphOS started in 99 and had it's first release in 2000. OS4 (in it's current form started) in 2001 and didn't get a first release until 2004. Ben Hermans pretty much single handedly poisoned the well, and the well still isn't drinkable to this day. Here is a small taste.

http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/

The Kommunity is a fraction of what it used to be and mostly more silent about things, simply because there are few left with grandiose visions of taking over the world. The memory is still there. It wasn't just Hermans, but the unethical actions of many in the OS4 camp. They love taking open source software, porting and selling for big money (see Quake II, Timberwolf) and fight tooth and nail to release the source back. Then there is the outright piracy of things like MUI and btree.library.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11342&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=0

Only in OS4 land is it acceptable to take someone work and claim it to be your own. The MorphOS team made it clear how they feel on the subject. Many of the highest profile from the team read and post Morphzone. If they didn't agree with my position, they would quickly correct me with something like "Listen red, you are off base. We have no problem with XYZ. Thanks for the support, but thread closed." I find it amazing anyone would defend unauthorized use of code and even name with MUI4, just because it helps something with Amiga in the name.

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I know where the hate comes from but does it help today? Basically you and others say they started. Perhaps that is true but even if what changes it. Since 2011 I was in contact with a number of former amiga developers and I can remember one of them asking if the "red versus blue" war still going on. It certainly did not motivate anyone and propably even cursed some away from the platform and it is not motivating devs to support MorphOS. I do not talk about OS devdelopers but 3rd party devs. Funnily in my view (you can correct me) it seems that AmigaOS has still the most 3rd party support but close to no OS development, MorphOS (the exact opposite) has lots of OS development but not much 3rd party support. So having good relation with AmigaOS users and 3rd party developers would be good for MorphOS. I do not talk about suddenly liking Hyperion or Frieden brothers or Ben H., just good relations to the others.

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You can name AmiArcadia and CodeWar.

> 4.0 to 5.0 is a big jump

The previous version was 4.2.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9339&start=74

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New language support. I cant say more about it at the moment.

>> I never heard anyone claiming about not having Reaction(NG) to port software xyz to MorphOS.

> You can name AmiArcadia and CodeWar.

...and more by Minuous (like MCE, ReportPlus), who even contributed to this very thread in comment #22. This is, if we are to ignore the "NG" in parenthesis.

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I haven't been active on anywhere except occasionally posting to Morphzone for a while now. I was semi-active on Moobunny, but that has been shut down for 6 months. I haven't posted on the corporate owned OS4 sites (A0/AWN) literally in years. Very few OS4 users read Morphzone. besides, me stating facts about what a competing operating system is doing in an illegal/unethical way isn't hate, just facts.

Does stating facts help? I don't know, but stating facts certainly don't hurt anything. What does hurt the platform is the competition illegally hijacking a core component of MorphOS and claiming it to be the legitimate product. I've bought numerous licenses and contributed to several bounties. I'd like to see MorphOS succeed. It is sad and disheartening that the MorphOS Team play ethically while the OS4 Team plays very dirty, and people want to insult the MorphOS team and applaud the OS4 team.

If the shoe were on the other foot, if it were the MorphOS team pulling such a stunt, there would be no calls for us to all get along and sing Kumbaya. There would be legal threats and likely legal action.

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Other than the copyright obviously pre-dates the OS4 MUI4 project?
Its obviously a copyright carried over from 3.8.

[ Edited by Jim 03.10.2015 - 10:02 ]

What do we (mortals) actually know ?

- Laire rewrote/ported MUI3.8 to PPC (ca. 2001) thus creating MUI3.9
- Stuntzi licenced that version Hyperion including source for compability reasons only (ca. 2002)
- Stuntzi with the help of others updated it to early 4.0 versions
- Stuntzi had some fallout with Genesi over outstanding payments (wether he wanted to be named on morphos.de hijacked by Zapek is unknown)
- Stuntzi uses/used a great deal of his freetime for extended bicycle tours across the world, seriously reducing the time he could spend on MUI
- Stuntzi objected to the recreated MUI4 not needing a keyfile (if he objected to the whole thing is unknown)

What we also don't know:
- how much work did Stuntzi invest in MUI in the past ±10 years
- how much of MUI4/5 has been done by other team-members
- do those team-member have in stake in MUI's copyright, or is it still 100% owned by Stuntzi



In essence, all we can say is that NotMUI4 isn't 100% compatible and versioning is atleast confusing if not misleading.

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As far as closing threads is concerned, people are generally allowed to make a fool of themselves on MorphZone Closing threads is usually reserved for people who are obviously trolling.

Also, I do not think it is a good rule to generally assume silence means agreement. Sometimes it just means people do not know enough about a particular topic to make a definitive statement either way, for instance.

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When MorphOS core developers make a statement on the subject, I tend to believe them.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9339&post_id=109171&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1

@red

There is a slight difference between "approval" and "no objection".

So all we know now is that he either wasn't asked before (and even that isn't a 100%).

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THAT is very much the crux of the biscuit.
MUI has been incorporated into MorphOS.
How much have developers other than Stuntz contributed to it?
What rights are retained by which individuals?

And further, as I has insinuated before, does Stuntz approve of the OS4 package, and is he hostile to our community?

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MUI does include a copyright section...

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Of course not. This is a bizarre question.

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Not really. we all realized that his bicycle touring would limit his availability.
But we don't know if the decision to cut of his funding occurred before he decided to take off or after.
NOR do I particularly want to know.
But his input IS curiously absent in all this.

I fact, several of the developers haven't made a lot of statements over the last few years.

So I don't feel that the question is anyway "bizarre".
In fact, I've always found that you are far to concerned about political correctness Andre.

So, to a point, DO you have a good relationship with Stuntz?

[ Edited by Jim 03.10.2015 - 13:25 ]

I wanted to make a lengthy post here, but I'll refrain and just say: I don't really care how many of my classes they rip off and how many of the docs I wrote they steal. This only motivates me further to advance MorphOS technologically so much, that the gap will be to huge to close this time.

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You have always scared me a little.
Because I know when you say something like that you mean it.
And the attitude is right, if they follow by waiting to steal from you guys, they will always be behind.

If it isn't apparent, I have always enjoyed following along where you folks decide to go.
Lead on Jackson.

[ Edited by Jim 03.10.2015 - 13:25 ]

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Some people prefer to spend their precious personal time developing software rather than partake in (often futile) discussions on online forums.

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It is completely bizarre because you have been given a clear answer on page one of this discussion thread.

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I'll speculate here and say that I think that "Stuntzi" has probably lost much of his interest and desire to work on any programming related to the Amiga & MorphOS communities, so probably 99% of the work done on MUI over the past several years has been done by other MorphOS Dev. Team members. When "Stuntzi" stopped working on MUI is unclear and his opinion regarding the unofficial work on MUI4 for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x can't be known by any of us who don't have direct contact with "Stuntzi", but I fail to see how anyone could believe that he approves of what was done without permission, and the "slap in the face" actions of removing copyright notices. I also don't understand why anyone would think that "Stuntzi" is hostile to the MorphOS community. He may not be active at the moment, but he is still part of the MorphOS Dev. Team.

It is clear that the divide between the AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS teams remains wide, and apparently continues to grow wider with no resolution of hostile feelings in sight for most team members. The future will see both OSes evolve into platforms that have zero in common with each other, as compatibility with the original Amiga is reduced to being able to run UAE.

It is hard for me to tell if AmigaOS4.x will survive, or if Hyperion will strangle the last breaths out of it, by refusing to Open Source it, and failing to continue it as a viable commercial venture.

MorphOS at least has a better chance of continuing forward, though it might never grow into much more than it currently is, and continue to be commercially undesirable for 99.9% of programmers trying to make a living from selling their software.

>>> "...copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz" - that is just SO wrong.

>> Why (apart from the misspelled surname)?

> Other than the copyright obviously pre-dates the OS4 MUI4 project?

The 2006 MUI4 version created by Stuntz is the base for the current OS3/OS4 MUI4 version. What's the problem with the former predating the latter?

> Its obviously a copyright carried over from 3.8.

Really? And what about 3.9 which was in between?

> unauthorized use of code and even name with MUI4

If it's unauthorized, how did the OS4 devs get a hold of the 2006 MUI4 code?

> Stuntzi had some fallout with Genesi over outstanding payments

Fun fact: It was Thendic-France, and Genesi is something completely different :-)

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Yes, but you never have told us who is actively developing and who has dropped out.
Some of the people I am most impressed with, like Ralph, don't seem to make statements and I have to wonder if those developers are currently working with you.

How about a release/list of the current/active developers?

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There is no clear answer on that page.
I would still like to hear what Stuntz has to say.

And I am not trying to piss you off Andre, I just want a definitive answer, not a vague qualified answer from a third party.