> he instead announced that he is moving forward with more new computers
> from A-Eon with Varisys as his partner and AmigaKit was also joining him
> as a partner to produce new AmigaOne computers.

True, he specifically said that they contracted Varisys to develop three new products, one of which will be an XCore processor card. I guess the remaining two will be standalone PPC boards for running OS4. One of them could be a successor to Nemo, and the other maybe a mobile solution (i.e. quasi-successor to Hyperion's OS4 netbook), but that's just wild speculation from my part.

> he hopes to bring the Amiga community back together and one way to help
> accomplish this is to provide hardware that all Amiga inspired OSes can run on.
> Of course he cannot accomplish this without cooperation from the AROS and
> MorphOS developers

It's not that MorphOS can't be ported to existing Sam4x0 boards or to the X1000 but just that the MorphOS Team doesn't want to do this for several comprehensible reasons. So it will be interesting to see how he's going to create appeal for the MorphOS Team to port MorphOS to any future A-Eon hardware.

> It will be interesting to see what his next system(s) is/are going to use for
> a CPU [...] The QorIQ CPU's are the most likely choice, I would guess.

Absolutely. A-Eon already hinted at Freescale's QorIQ P4 and P5 chips for future hardware. In my opinion it would be better for them to wait for the availability of the AltiVec-enabled QorIQ AMP (= T series) chips, at least for the X1000 successor, as even the top end P series chips are only a little better performing than the PA6T, if at all, and they lack AltiVec.

> I have not read up on which PPC platforms AROS has been ported to

So far, AROS for PPC runs natively only on Efika 5200B and Sam440.

> Trevor also said that he will not be talking about what he is doing, or
> releasing any specs on his next project(s), until they are ready to release.
> It was an obvious statement on his displeasure on the highly critical
> nature of many users in the Amiga community that love to tear apart and
> criticize plans and timeframes that are released early

I've understood it more like a statement on his displeasure with A-Eon's own rush job at announcing the X1000 for half a year later, two whole years in advance of its release.

> 2012 should be another interesting year for new Amiga hardware announcements.

So given that Trevor Dickinson said he would "not be talking about what he is doing, or releasing any specs on his next project(s), until they are ready to release" you believe there should be new A-Eon hardware released as early as 2012?

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

It is more likely that the 4240 is canceled for 2012 (delayed to 2013, 4320).
IMO it's a bad sign.
I am corious if and when the 4160 will see the light of day. The TDP will be very interesting, also!

>> What's puzzling is that the T4240 (in June 2011 announced for early 2012)
>> is missing from this roadmap. Or maybe they increased its core count from
>> 12 to 16 and accordingly call it the T4320 now?

> It is more likely that the 4240 is canceled for 2012 (delayed to 2013, 4320).

That's in essence what my speculation you replied to was. And you're right that this would mean a delay from early 2012 to early 2013 according to the roadmap depiction. In June Freescale said they would "provide more details regarding the T4240 product later this year", which still has 3 weeks left. So I guess when there won't be any details on the 12-core T4240 this year we can conclude that it's probably cancelled and "replaced" by the 16-core T4320 which is supposed to come one year later.

> I am corious if and when the 4160 will see the light of day.

According to the roadmap depiction, the 8-core T4160 should be available as initial sample when the T4240 was originally said to be available by Freescale, i.e. early 2012. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

> The TDP will be very interesting, also!

http://www.freescale.com.cn/cstory/ftf/2011/pdf/1417.pdf
http://2011ftf.ccidnet.com/pdf/1417.pdf

This document has on page 16 mentioned "<50W thermal max at 1.8GHz" and "<40W thermal max at 1.67GHz" as power targets for the 16-core T4320. From these figures we may infer the targeted TDP for the T4160 with half the amount of cores.

A little bit more than 20W for an 8 core CPU sounds sweet.
It should be easy to double that figures from - King of the hill - IBM

David's conversion with Treavor brings up topics that I've discussed with him via e-mail myself.
He has stated that he would like to develop systems that support OS4 AND MorphOS.
That would be interesting considering his partner's involvement with Hyperion.

> He has stated that he would like to develop systems that support OS4 AND MorphOS.

First off, it's the OS that must support the hardware, not the other way round. As said before, the MorphOS Team is free to port MorphOS to hardware that is already supported by OS4 (Sam4x0, X1000). I remember that in March you and me discussed the possibility that Trevor would attempt to have new systems created outside of A-Eon (i.e. without Ben Hermans' involvement) in order to reduce the MorphOS Team's reluctance. So far it seems he won't do that. Another show stopper is the compulsive bundling of OS4 to the hardware. For the MorphOS Team to consider a port the hardware would have to be available without OS4 optionally.

> That would be interesting considering his partner's involvement with Hyperion.

As we know, Trevor says A-Eon would very much appreciate a port of MorphOS to the X1000. So it seems Ben Hermans wouldn't object to that either.

The obstacle you speak of no longer exists, but I don't know if I am free to explain further.

> The obstacle you speak of no longer exists

I spoke of two separate obstacles. Which one are you referring to?

Sorry, probably said too much already.

> Sorry, probably said too much already.

Alright, so I guess this must mean either
* Ben Hermans has left A-Eon, or
* Trevor Dickinson has commissioned hardware development as a private person or a business separate from A-Eon, or
* the X1000 or Nemo is also going to be available without OS4 license.

I'm really curious what it is :-)

> It is more likely that the 4240 is canceled for 2012 (delayed to 2013, 4320).

What's speaking against a cancellation though is that in a Freescale press release from 6 weeks ago, i.e. 2 months after the latest roadmap, the T4240 got mentioned prominently. This leads me to think that the roadmap depiction from August is flawed and they just missed to put the T4240 in or something. There's also another error in there, as it reads "P3080" where it should read "P3060", so the thought of an erroneous roadmap depiction is not too far fetched I think.

@amigadave

ahh so those rumours about trevor and hermans nearly coming to blows were true? excellent./

@cheesegrate,

Please do not spread rumors like that. I have not heard that rumor and doubt it is true.

As far as I know, Trevor, A-Eon and Hyperion are all still on good terms with each other.

You can make all the assumptions you want, but Trevor has publicly stated his desire to bring the Amiga community back together, in what ever way he can, and knowing the limitations and obstacles in his way. He uses both OS4 and MorphOS, but prefers OS4 for himself, so I am pretty sure what ever he produces in the future will have OS4 ported to it, but he also sees the advantage of having hardware that can run both OS4 and MorphOS, which would provide a small step toward re-unifying the Amiga community. He knows that unifying the Development Teams is not something that is possible at this point in time.

I really admire his spirit and would do anything to help him spread his goals for more cooperation and support for developers. His attitude and dreams have inspired me enough to part with a huge chunk of my retirement income, to purchase a First Contact X1000 computer from A-Eon and AmigaKit.

I encourage all of you to exercise similar attitudes of cooperation, and/or tolerance and acceptance toward OS4 users and developers. It appears to me that the MorphOS Dev. Team members have stopped antagonizing or arguing with any OS4 users a long time ago and are satisfied with just making MorphOS the best system it can be, without regard for anything that is happening with OS4. I think the users should do the same and refrain from any petty disputes with OS4 users who sometimes are offended too easily when they feel that a critical comment of comparison is being made to the detriment of their OS of choice.

It is just a waste of time and more than that, it is harmful to the growth of MorphOS and it's user base. Live and let live and don't let yourself get sucked into pointless arguments, or flame fests on any forum sites. Enjoy and use what you like and help promote it to the benefit of us all. Make positive statements and actions, and forget about trying to argue with, or convince non-MorphOS users to see things your way.

Our small community can accomplish much more together, than we can apart.

(stepping down from my pulpit and hopefully won't bore you all with any more sermons for a long time)

@dave: Thank you for your wise words (the wisdom of age and experience?) that apply not only to Amiga boards but to all fora on the web in my opinion. Being more of a silent reader to Amiga and everything related websites, I do post frequently on football boards (though I did more in the past). You'd be surprised about in how many different and creative ways people can end up in a fight related to their common hobby. It seems to be a human trait, and the internet made it possible not only to argue with your neighbour over the fence but with people from all over the world. I have refrained from posting much almost everywhere (music, politics etc.) cause there's mostly not much use, point and sense in it for me.

@Megander,

Thanks, I can't say I have any more experience than others, but I probably have a higher number in the age category than most.

I have to agree with what you wrote and I wish that I did not post as much as I do now. I am trying to cut back, but seem to have relapsed this past week or two.

My problem is that I have a lot of passion for all things Amiga and it is hard for me to NOT respond sometimes when I see stupid, or incorrect comments on forum sites. I am going to try to go back to reducing my comments and postings, unless they are purely help messages to answer questions that other users have. I am sure that I will slip up and post messages that don't fit into that category, but I am going to try to cut back on any unnecessary posting.

Unnecessary postings like this one

> he also sees the advantage of having hardware that can run both OS4 and
> MorphOS, which would provide a small step toward re-unifying the Amiga
> community. [...] It appears to me that the MorphOS Dev. Team members
> have stopped antagonizing or arguing with any OS4 users a long time ago
> and are satisfied with just making MorphOS the best system it can be, without
> regard for anything that is happening with OS4. I think the users should do the
> same and refrain from any petty disputes with OS4 users who sometimes are
> offended too easily when they feel that a critical comment of comparison is
> being made to the detriment of their OS of choice.

I'm sure you remember Fab's and later Daff's performance comparisons of MorphOS vs. OS4 on the Pegasos II and the arguing and disputes they caused. If Trevor's dream of more hardware that can run both OS4 and MorphOS will come true you can definitely expect more of such "petty disputes" and "critical comments of comparison", as the release of OS4 for the Pegasos II has shown. So to me it seems that longing for a unified hardware platform and at the same time longing for less disputes and comparisons are two aims that are contradictory and you can't have it both ways.
To my mind, the best way to lessen the arguing between MorphOS users and OS4 users would be to keep each of those operating systems on distinct hardware so that pure OS comparisons are not possible (except for the Pegasos II where the horse has already bolted, if you pardon the pun). Having said that, personally I'm all for factual comparisons and critical comments, so I'm looking forward to more hardware where both MorphOS and OS4 can run on.

> the internet made it possible not only to argue with your neighbour over the
> fence but with people from all over the world.

True, and this is a fantastic thing. Mind you, if it wasn't for the Internet, all things Amiga would be long dead and forgotten, except for a few die-hards switching on their old m68k machines once in a while.

Quote:

Are you the spokesman for the Morhos Team now? I'd love to know what you are basing this on. It doesnt even make sense for one...

The thing is if the man invested 200k pounds in x1000 project whats another 100k eu to port morphos to x1000?

funny thing is I have a feeling a couple of the core guys might not do it for ANY amount of money!

> Are you the spokesman for the Morhos Team now?

No, I'm just relaying what MorphOS Team members said in public, which makes me a non-spokesman by definition.

> I'd love to know what you are basing this on.

I know you hate my hyperlinks, but if you can bring yourself to click the reference in the posting you just quoted from and go from there, you'll end up with the MorphOS Team member's statement I'm basing my statement on.

> if the man invested 200k pounds in x1000 project whats another 100k eu
> to port morphos to x1000? ;-)

Are you the spokesman for Trevor Dickinson now? ;-) At least I'm not aware that he even hinted at considering to pay the MorphOS Team for porting to the X1000 or any other hardware that only comes bundled with OS4.

Quote:

I am aware that comparisons have been made in the past and that more will be made in the future. From what I have seen from Fab, he is one of the least confrontational MorphOS Dev. Team members, so I am not saying that he is guilty of any of the things that I am about to mention. It is inevitable that such comparisons and more and different comparisons will continue, but they do not always have to be made with negative comments from MorphOS users/developers, as has happened in the past. Too often, OS4 users get upset, even when no accompanying negative comments are made toward OS4 during comparisons, just because they are hyper-sensitive to any comparisons, as they remember past insults and injuries, so they lash out against any comparisons these days, even when no insult is included and the person doing the comparison is trying to be completely neutral and unbiased.

I know that there will always be a few people that react negatively toward any comparison that reflects badly toward OS4, but I also think that there is more tolerance now than there was in the past and that if done correctly and without malice, there are more people that will see such comparisons for what they are, just informational to help people that are interested in such comparisons make their choices between hardware platforms and which OS they want to run for specific purposes.

So, I agree with your assessment that my hopes and goals are somewhat contradictory, but if done correctly, they can be less so. No one can please all the people all the time, but I think progress can be made toward greater tolerance and acceptance between OS4 and MorphOS users and developers. It will most likely never be full cooperation and friendship, but it can improve from what we have had in the past, or even what we currently see in the community.

I have noticed on many forums that less OS4 users argue about MorphOS
performance advantages over OS4. No performance advantage is going to change their minds about which OS they want to use and they do not want to read about the performance differences every day in the forums they are reading, but there are less and less OS4 users claiming that the MorphOS users are spreading FUD with these discussions and comparisons. We can continue to publish comparative data in the future and will raise less conflict if that data is presented in a way that is sensitive to the people we are presenting it to and not like some kind of challenge, or insult that we are forcing down their throats "in their minds eye". Perception is important and if we wish to win the hearts and minds of more current and former Classic Amiga users (and even a very few OS4 users) to become a user of multiple platforms, one of which is MorphOS, we need to act, write and speak with this sensitivity in mind.

I know not everyone will agree with me and my philosophy on how to win new MorphOS users, but hopefully some people will see merit in what I am trying to do.


Quote:

You may be right, and keeping OS4 and MorphOS on separate and distinct hardware probably would result in less confrontation, but I am optimistic that we can make progress toward more tolerance and cooperation in the future with MORE hardware that both systems can run on, but it won't be easy and won't always be pretty. There will still be those few that will always want to fight and argue. We just cannot avoid some conflicts. Hopefully we can lessen their affects and frequency.

I think it will be a good thing to have more users and third party developers using both OS4 and MorphOS platforms and that it will lead to more cooperation and better tolerance between the opposing user bases. Only time will tell which of us is more correct. Just getting to a point of having more hardware that supports both OS4 and MorphOS will not be an easy task, so this whole conversation may be moot, without such hardware.

I can only hope that some of the people that are in charge of making some of these decisions will agree with me and see some benefit for everyone, through future collaboration on hardware to be supported.

I am sure the MorphOS Dev. Team members have no doubts that their product will show itself well on common hardware, so they are more likely to support the idea of more common hardware than some of the OS4 developers, but they have other reasons to resist a common hardware platform. It may never happen and there are probably more things going against such a thing happening that there are going FOR a common hardware platform ever happening, but I continue to hope.

Edit: The MorphOS Dev. Team will only support new hardware if it makes good sense to them and their goals. Porting MorphOS to the X1000, or SAM boards does not make any sense (unless something drastically changes in price and numbers of boards, or systems that get sold to Amiga users), but maybe something in the future will be appealing to both the MorphOS Dev. Team and the OS4 developers.

[ Edited by amigadave 11.12.2011 - 15:23 ]

Dave

Interesting posts and good reads. Thanks..

I think you are understanding the whole "war" from a user perspective. The real problem is the old history and things that were done or said that can never be taken back. This is the primary cause for bad blood still to this day. imho

Whats funny is that way more os4 ppl hate on morphos than vice versa. The ironic thing I found was that a lot of these haters never even used morphos!

oh and Andreas Wolf

When your posts start to make sense may be i'll respond.

> When your posts start to make sense may be i'll respond.

What is it specifically you don't grasp this time? If you point it out I'm willing to reword it for you.

just a few words. I was trying to persuade more cooperation on amigaworld regarding the different NG-platforms but I found out that this is not possible. There is so much hate between the different camps that I think real cooperation is impossible, and I think there expecially of OS4-users/supporters. They often seem to be fanatics, sentences like "OS4 is the only true and real amiga-successor, all other are just copies" and such shit. Cooperation needs accepting others and see them on the same level and as partner. I think many in the OS4-camp are far away from that. Cooperation between individuals on all platforms is certainly possible, cooperation with the OS4-camp as a whole is impossible in my view. Realistic is in my view some sort of cooperation between the other "Copies" Aros and Morphos.

That is my personal view after the discussions over a couple of months.

+1

But OS4-fanatics not only hate Morphos, they hate all that use other NG-platforms. F.e. 68k are retros (stupid, playing old games), Aros is far away from being useful (I do not think that they have ever tried it out), Morphos is not "amiga-like enough and it is not called AmigaOS so it is not Amiga". They have never real facts just "emotions" and when you ask what is the advantage of AmigaOS compared to others (why buy it) you get no answer.

OlafSch,
Quote:

From the developer side I don't think a majority of the MOS Dev Team want to cooperate with Hyperion, they hate Ben Hermans through and through and despise anything that is related with him, including Hyperion.
The Frieden boys, together with some multi-OS project devs like the MUI classes, did try to work on common tools in the adtools but afaik there was no cooperation from MOS side.

Personally I am a little bit disappointed about the lack of support I got for getting a (gcc) MOS cross-compiler going under Linux[*]. Personally I see cross-compilers as a first step to give developers the ability to support more amiga platform than the one they run on their desktops; and this counts in all different directions (MOS->AOS4, AOS4->MOS, Linux->MOS, Linux->AOS4, xxx->AROS, AROS->xxx, ...).

Please prove me (and Olaf) wrong ! I am happy to be the bridge between OS4, MOS (and AROS) devs to get more cooperation going in between the platforms.

greets,
Staf.

[*] This is exluding the vbcc guys, Volker and Frank, which were very helpful.