> Sony has managed to keep information on how to directly access video,
> audio and other hardware away from third party developers.

Yes, that's the second (but weaker) part of Sony's security measure. Even if you succeeded in circumventing or hacking the hypervisor to run your OS in "GameOS" mode and thus were able to access the PS3's bare metal you'd still need documentation to program it.
Btw, there had been a semi-successful approach in the past to access the GPU directly from within Linux running in "OtherOS" mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuRLsB2q7QY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJQkXmG6UTI

Sony killed this with a firmware upgrade, as usual.

ubuntu threads show it working, but as you stated the 512meg ram total just won't do. they talked about thumb drives to hold whatever and helping the mem even while browsing. I had to upgrade my mini to 1gig and even that isn't enough at times. I like to open everything and not worry.
here's hoping for a viable option in the future. 1.83ghz or better

> ubuntu threads show it working

Show what working?

> as you stated the 512meg ram total

I stated only 256 MiB RAM. But you're right that the 256 MiB VRAM can be used as system RAM which gives 512 MiB RAM in total.

> just won't do.

512 MiB would only just do it I think. But that depends on usage pattern.

> they talked about thumb drives to hold whatever and helping the
> mem even while browsing.

Probably slow as hell.

> I had to upgrade my mini to 1gig and even that isn't enough at times.

I usually only run out of my 1 GiB RAM when using programs which have memory leaks.

> here's hoping for a viable option in the future. 1.83ghz or better

CPU upgrades for G4 PowerMacs are available up to 2.0 GHz.

I thought the 2.0Ghz CPU upgrades for the G4 PowerMacs were said to probably not be supported by MorphOS due the model of G4 chip?

> I thought the 2.0Ghz CPU upgrades for the G4 PowerMacs were said to
> probably not be supported by MorphOS due the model of G4 chip?

Are we going in circles? Once more, I'm talking about 2.0 GHz upgrades with 7447A/B, not 7448.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6684&start=7
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6770&start=26

Quote:

I thought this was limited to a basic framebuffer mode with no hardware acceleration though.
Unless that is what you mean by 'semi-successful'...

@Andreas_Wolf

Are you sure the 7447b is supported?
I can only see Ralph mentioning the 7447a as being supported from reading the links you posted (ie here).

This is far OT for the original thread though...

[ Edited by boot_wb on 2010/10/5 16:22 ]

> Are you sure the 7447b is supported?

Yes, 7447B is what's inside Mac mini G4:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=7332&start=118
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6560&start=24

> I can only see Ralph mentioning the 7447a as being supported

That's because in most cases the inofficial 7447B is imprecisely denoted as being 7447A. Ralph simply subsumes both A and B versions as being "A". To know for sure if it's the one or the other you'd have to see what's written on the chip. And presumably the content of the PVR register could tell it as well. But I think that the difference between A and B version isn't relevant for an OS to support both. So everything labelled "7447A" should work with MorphOS (with respect to the processor at least), no matter if it's really 7447A or rather 7447B, or even a 7447C:

http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5271#5271
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7894#7894

> I thought this was limited to a basic framebuffer mode
> with no hardware acceleration though.

No, it was hardware 3D on the RSX. From the first video's description:

"Until recently, not enough was known about how to use the RSX to make any headway to usable, free access to the 3D contexts on the GPU on the PS3. With some excellent work from people in both the Nouveau and PS2Dev groups, homebrew developers may soon be able to write their own 3D applications."

Some more info:

http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:rsx#enabling_3d

Thanks. I'd had MPlayer paused in the background, so had watched the Youtube videos with no sound originally; aside from pretty graphics the only real clue was the last half-second of the second linked video, where "RSX Rendering" just about scrolls onto the screen.

I'd originally inferred that you were referring to PS3 video driver support under Linux, however in light of the audio commentary on the first linked video I see that your words were carefully chosen.

I did upgrade my PS3 firmware beyond the point of no-support for otherOS - basically because it seemed any advantage I would hope to gain by running Linux on the PS3 was hobbled by the video driver support, or lack thereof.

Interesting developments - I'd be curious to see if this develops any further, given that the number of potential users of a PS3-supporting-otherOS are diminishing with every firmware upgrade performed.

[ Edited by boot_wb on 2010/10/5 18:31 ]

Quote:
D'oh!

Quote:

That explains why ambient's system monitor identifies my Mac Mini cpu as a 7447A.
Thanks for the info - I didn't realise that there was a 7447C.

It's always interesting reading old threads at PowerDeveloper.org. It has that 'if only..' feel about it that's so familiar in the 21st century post-Amiga world

> had watched the Youtube videos with no sound originally

Err, I quoted from the *written* description of the first video, not from the audio commentary of either one :-)

> I'd originally inferred that you were referring to PS3 video driver support under Linux

In the context of circumventing or hacking the PS3 hypervisor's restrictions, which my posting was about, there wouldn't really be a point in referring to that, would it? ;-)

> Interesting developments

...from nearly 3 years ago. And almost immediately afterwards killed by Sony via firmware upgrade.

> I'd be curious to see if this develops any further

After nearly 3 years of no development on that very front and due to Sony having closed that hole long ago I'd rule that possibility out.

This forum is worst than talking in french pubs!

> This forum is worst than talking in french pubs!

Simple solution: Booze at home ...err I mean don't read it :-P

Update:

> if you succeeded in circumventing or hacking the hypervisor to run your
> OS in "GameOS" mode and thus were able to access the PS3's bare metal...

http://www.marcansoft.com/blog/2010/10/asbestos-running-linux-as-gameos/

Additional advantage compared to running in OtherOS mode: all 7 SPEs at one's disposal.

He uses Jailbreak ... and Sony blocked that also with firmware update 3.42

There is a way to circumvent that ... for now.

I just ran through this thread. I can't believe you have enough time to keep up with all this Andreas, If game mode and RSX access are available why the F##k not go for it? MorphOS can run in 256MB easily (just ask any Efikla owner stuck with 128MB). A 3.2 Ghz Cell processor? That's one of my wet dreams I'd given up long ago.
I never thought the PS3s hypervisor protection would be defeated, so when IBM nixed Cell based PC applications (outside of the sever and PC cards they'd already assisted in developing) I pretty much gave up on these ideas.
Would providing the development team with a PS3 with old enough firmware to be hacked encourage them to test it as a possible port?

Quote:
No, in fact I have a old PS3 with old enough firmware but I won't waste a second on that...

IT WON'T HAPPEN, I hope you finally get it.

Quote:

For a start, the Cell CPU is a hell of a complicated thing to program for: A central "clever" unit, and seven almost dumb units around it, with their own bandwidth problems...

If the Team was fed with zillion euros to make a port, it would still be a nightmare, in my opinion. Not to mention there's no documentation, and the manufacturer has a record of actively shutting down every attempt at it.

The CELL processor looks almost tailor made for weird scientific calculations. I was very surprised it got to a games console.

Pega-1, don't you have an XBox 360...?

(me ducks)

Supporting more (PPC) hardware is not meant in a way to support every ppc style hardware that can't run away fast enough and climb a tree to hide from MorphOS team.

Does anyone really believe that a hacked game console will be used to register and support a ppc desktop OS ? I seriously doubt that.

The only reason to hack/modify a game console is to play pirated games. The < 1 % that truely do it to do homebrew stuff doesn't count really .....

Anyway, it's not worth all the efforts in the end. Considering the efforts that already went into MorphOS, some might raise a similar question regarding the current user base, though ....

> If game mode and RSX access are available why the F##k not go for it?

As I hinted at here, RSX access would require a driver for nVidia NV47 GPU:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_%27Reality_Synthesizer%27

> Would providing the development team with a PS3 with old enough
> firmware to be hacked encourage them to test it as a possible port?

Apparently the MorphOS Team is not interested in a port to PS3. You may also refer to that old thread:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6051&forum=32

One could argue that the back then voiced requirement to consider a port is about to be met though:

* "it's a waste of time until someone cracks this useless "computer" wide open"
* "if these guys have managed to run proper homebrew with full hw-access by then we can talk..."

;-)

> the Cell CPU is a hell of a complicated thing to program for:
> A central "clever" unit, and seven almost dumb units around it

One could happily ignore those "almost dumb units" and pretend they are not even there. That would leave the CPU with a "clever" 3.2 GHz two-way threaded in-order Power Architecture core.

> there's no documentation

...like there's none for the PPC Macs.

> The CELL processor looks almost tailor made for weird scientific
> calculations. I was very surprised it got to a games console.

The Cell processor going into the PS3 had been known since March 2001, i.e. years before the specs of the Cell processor itself became known in November 2004. So your surprise must have been about the Cell's specs rather than about the fact it was going into the PS3 ;-)

Those are odd comments. The Cell is no more complicated than any PPC. The SPEs don't even have to be used. IBM may not provide a wealth of information on the product, but there's more than enough to code for it. As you pointed out Andreas, the Nvidia GPU is far more mysterious.
Its a shame there are so many negetive responses on this idea as I can't think of an OS that would be better suited to the PS3 than MorphOS.

> Those are odd comments.

I don't think they are.

> The Cell is no more complicated than any PPC. The SPEs don't
> even have to be used.

That's exactly what I wrote. Odd, isn't it? ;-)

> I can't think of an OS that would be better suited to the PS3 than MorphOS.

Seems the MorphOS Team can think of hardware that's better suited to MorphOS than the PS3 ;-)

So we enjoy the older mac hw for now till maybe next year for perhaps power book, then few more for another opt?
Whatever, I'm good right now with macmini, and efika as backup. skeaking of homebrew...Wii
everything else was mentioned in this thread
(Me ducks too)