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Socialists? They exist all throughout US history Nick.
I would have to class Bernie Sanders as one.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the New Deal definately promoted socialist ideas.
You aren't confusing socialism with communism are you?
BTW - Communism has never been viable. Walden Pond pretty much proved that.
I don't really think of the Soviet Union as a communist country, it seemed like more of a dictatorship without personal property rights.
Yet another form of fascism.

[ Edited by Jim 02.07.2016 - 19:02 ]

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Sanders is no Socialist, neither was FDR Jim. They might be less rabid than most of the scum that pass for politicians but they are still capitalists.

You aren't confusing Liberal with Socialist are you?

@ jim

Some people/politicians/journalists (often American, as in U.S.) often describes the Nordic Countries in general, and often Sweden in particular as "Socialist" countries. I have heard more than one rhetorical question asked by U.S. Politicians: "do you really want the USA to become another Sweden [a swear-word]?" (The answer they aim for is of course "no".)

But Sweden is not a Socialist country, has never been. Maybe the term those people are looking for is "Social Democracy", which is a completely different thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

I am not a Social Democrat myself, but I can fully acknowledge this ideology's merits from the past as it played a key role in the shaping of many Western European nations in the past.

And again, contrary to what some Americans may believe, social democracy != socialism, and social democracy is mainly what we have over here. The true socialists are so few they are easily ignored.

Neither of you use the same definition of socialism that I do apparently.
And capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive.
Of course the New Deal focused on socialist concerns and Sweden's form of government is quite socialistic.
As is Britains and for that matter many of the nations of Europe.
You've allowed yourselves to be deluded by the USSRs claim that they had a socialist government.
What they had was a totalitarian government.
Property rights, free enterprise, democracy, and socialism are not mutually exclusive.
All modern governments are somewhere on the spectrum from completely libertarian to heavily involved in social welfare.
Don't confuse what you have been told to believe with the reality.
To some degree, we have to be the keepers of our fellow men.

Apparently some people still regard the word "Socialism", or admitting their government is "Socialist", as a very bad thing. Not having lived through any of the horrors so many Europeans have had to endure over the last 100+ years, my perspective on the topic is very limited, so I am surprised at the seemingly insulted reaction some of you show when the word Socialism, or Socialist is brought up.

I don't think that many U.S. residents under the age of 50 would think that the words Socialist, or Socialism are particularly negative, and some might think that it is even preferable to our current economic beliefs and practices. I'm well over 50 and have never taken the time to fully educate myself about the types of social democracy that many European countries practice today. I'm not convinced that the type of capitalism practiced in the USA is the best answer, and certainly not the crazy "Trickle Down" type of capitalism that most wealthy people would like to force on the rest of us.

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How do you define "many"? In recent opinion polls (Gallup, et al), roughly half of respondents below the age of 50 had an unfavorable view of the term "socialism".

Last year, a poll in the US found that 60% of participants of all ages would vote for a Muslim, 58% would vote for an atheist but only 47% would vote for a "socialist".

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Freedom is a product of the rule of law, nothing else. Where the law is respected as paramount and where that law respects the freedom of the individual, the individual will be free. Socialism doesn't ensure freedom, as I think is evident. Free market doesn't ensure freedom, as you can see in China - bad luck Americans. Right to bear arms or have militias doesn't ensure freedom, ask anyone in the middle east. It's even possible to have a repressive democracy, as democracy at its simplest is dictatorship of the majority. Communism, which on paper had grand constitutions and human rights, failed because it had little to no personal freedom and no respect for its own laws. Whatever you called it, what it was really was a small political elite that made life and death decisions of hundreds of millions of people.

Let's bring the conversation back to Corbyn, who is a socialist. When UK voted Brexit, he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "The people have spoken, we'll have to work with that." The other MPs in the Labour party, including the Blairites, said "NO, we have to TELL the people what's best for them." Corbyn is a socialist. Life ruled by Corbyn would be free, because he respects the laws, he respect democracy, and he respects the rights of the individual.

Are you ready to give up your publically provided health care?
That is a socialist program.
The dole you give out to help the poor.
Socialist.
And, as you admit, many of your politicians, socialists.

Laws don't assure freedoms, they penalize specific activities.
Why do you think so many fled Europe to come here?
And why did they migrate to the West where there was no law?
Oh yeah...freedom.

Tomorrow we celebrate throwing off the yolk of British law.
Congradulations in your own move toward independence, even if it is a concept that the English don't appear to fully understand.

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If your definition of "freedom" is living in the sticks and dying of a rotten tooth aged 42 your spot on.


My definition of freedom goes quite a bit further and being free from worrying about the absolute basics (food, shelter and healthcare) is just a start here.

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Such as the second amendment punishes people who don't want guns to be owned and the Sexual Offences Act 1967 punishes people who don't want homosexuality to be legal in the UK? Or the Data Protection Act punishes companies who collect personal information without permission?

All laws are a balance of powers between people. Stable, free countries can't change their laws without the consent of the judiciary, the people, and the democratically elected rulers. Unstable, unfree countries change or ignore their laws at their whims.

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Your ancestors, Jim? Because they were religious zealots who weren't allowed to persecute others for their beliefs.

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And multiple wives.

If you want freedom, emigrate to Somalia. No government, no laws, nobody will tell you what to do there. You can own what you want, do what you want, and no laws will punish you for it. It is a truly lawless place.

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It's the 21st century, with a global economy, global trade, and mass alliances. Independence is an illusion, as the UK will soon find.

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Can you share your sources, I'd like to look at who took this poll, and when it was taken.

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Bzzt. Try taxation without representation, which is something that seems pretty key to Brexit too.

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The US federal government collects between 17 and 18 percent of your country´s gross domestic product. The entire European Union collects 1 percent of the gross national income of its member states.

Half (!) of the EU´s budget is spent exclusively on agriculture, yet the total amount is still notably less than the US department of agriculture spents every year...

Do you see the difference?

By the way, the UK pays the least of all member states as a share of its gross national income (because of a special rebate)...

So, even if the UK had no representation, which it absolutely does for as long as it remains a member state, the taxation is a complete non-issue in reality.

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We voted for members of the European parliament.

The Irish imigrated because they were religious zealots?
Those in Ireland may still be.
Most of us in the US are decended from people that came here to avoid starvation.

Starvation exacerbate by the potato blight, but that occured during a period when Ireland was a mass exporter of food thanks to British held plantations.
SO...If I haven't made myself clear on my sentiment, fuck the Empire.

Fuck the idiotic idea of monarchy, British pomposity, and their dominion over others.

They're the morons that decided they could survive as a "service economy".
And God help us, we seem to be following that lead into economic suicide.

And btw, if it wasn't for the US, the English would be speaking German right now.

So tomorrow, you all have a happy fourth of July.
We will be celebrating our asses off.

/me hand Jim a sack of carots, so he allways has something to chew on.

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Thanks Kronos,
Pissing off an Irishman is bad mistake.
We hold a grudge longer than any people I know (except maybe the Turks and Greeks).
And religion? Hey, we don't have a State sponsored Church in the US.
My State, Delaware was originally settled by the Dutch and I am a member of the Reformed Church (a fairly liberal Protestant demnomination).

Why did the English adopt the reformation again?
Wasn't it something about their King wanting to divorce then murder his Queen?

At least the Germans had Luther.

Eating a carrot (calmly) before dinner while realizing you all might be better off without Britain.

Take care.

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Sure seems to be largely toothless considering lack of legislative initiative.

Cameron, Johnson... Farage...

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More like Russian ;)

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I though so too, but I've reconsidered. If there was no help to USSR by western Allies the 3rd Reich could just have made it to the Moscow before winter and force Soviets to capitulate and give away the european part of USSR. Would they regroup and counterstrike operating from Asia alone? Maybe.

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As Napoleon discovered, capturing Moscow does neither necessarily win a war nor lead to capitulation

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Poles have discovered that way before it was cool.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/07/04/ukip-announce-faisal-umar-khan-as-new-leader/

ROFLMAO!!!!

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@Jim & Redrumloa

Happy 4th July!

@Intuition

The petition finally got processed, and sadly rejected as a duplicate (petitions which have since been approved, but were not visible at the time of submission).
There are now several petitions (with varying degrees of inelegant wording) from which to choose. Thanks for your support regardless.