Occasionally I visit amigaworld.net to find news about various PowerPC Hardware, and hopefully if various new (unsupported) PowerPC hardware will encourage MorphOS Team to support the new hardware.

And then I am reading about I think it is called AmiStore by AmigaKit which seems to increase software development for AmigaOS PowerPC. I am new to MorphOS and so I have numerous idiotic questions. These questions are not meant to cause any "camp wars".

I am impressed with MorphOS and one of the main reasons is that it was able to support a laptop. AmigaOS has not done this. (unless I am mistaken.) It has done something before AmigaOS could do. I believe this is important for two reasons. One: If the original company had still remained open for a few more years, they would have been the "first" to develop (or improve) a laptop computer, even before Apple. (or with options superior compared to Apple). Two: And the second reason has to deal with the present day. I have said this several times (at amigaworld) that few people are interested in Desktop. The average consumer desires a laptop, notebook, netbook, tablet, and smart phone. Supporting an (although old) laptop puts MorphOS at an innovative advantage.

It helped me to choose MorphOS first because I do not have the budget to try all the OS at the same time.

I have a very curious question, if PowerPC AmigaOS (better known as AmigaOS4) has software development, will it have more software than MorphOS?

Is there a MorphOS "app store" somewhere, to attract developers? Is software being developed regularly? Will the software be rewritten when MultiCore Prosessors and Memory Protection, and even the ISA Switch? and
Just because these MorphZone forums appear boring and inactive, does that mean development is slowing? Or are developers secretly sneaking software and hardware development?

Is there anything I can do to help?

Again I apologize for all the noob questions.

If AmigaOS and MorphOS wants to work together, that is fine. But if they are not working together, I want MorphOS to be leading in the competition. Is that wrong?


[ Edited by In_Correct 31.03.2014 - 19:39 ]

Hello In_Correct :

a quick answer before to go at work :

http://morphos-files.net/index2.php

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In my opinion the greatest obstacle in the software development is that it takes too much effort to develop software. Easy development mean more software in shorter timeline. If it was a commercial venture it would also mean better profits. However, that is easier said than done.

Okay, I probably have been developing too much C# code to Windows :) but you get the idea.

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Perhaps you should check out the various PPC HW related threads that has been going on at this site for several years now, where the "human web spider" Andreas Wolf is constantly adding everything and anything that's happening on the PPC front. I don't recall what those threads are called though, since they evolved from the subject/headline it originally discussed, into something else.


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Is it really? I'm not so sure about that...


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No, you are correct.


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I'm not so sure about that. While many people indeed appreciate laptops (myself included), they don't always replace desktops. And personally, I mostly use x86 laptops in a docking station or at least manually connected to a *real* keyboard and a *real* monitor, thus in practice I mostly use it as if it would be a desktop. But laptops has many compromises compared to desktops, since they need to deal with heat, power consumption, tight space etc, etc in ways that desktops happily can disregard. So I think there is a need for both!


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MorphOS (or AmigaOS) today aren't meant for average consumers anyways, but rather highly specialized tech-nerds from the Amiga era of the 80's and the 90's.

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In an Amiga context, you can forget those. That's a completely different game.


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Indeed it has led to development of laptop-exclusive API's in the OS (that isn't present in any other Amiga solution) that can/could/should be reused if/when support for other laptop HW comes up on the agenda. So it has an advantage.

(Besides, the top of the line PowerBooks supported by MorphOS outperforms *all* HW available for OS4 (including desktops), despite being old and despite being laptops, so yes again, it *does* have an advantage! )


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Both OS4 and MorphOS has developers making SW for those OS's.


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Not that I'm aware of. And honestly, I don't think an app-store is the key here. I agree with itix above; the obstacles is elsewhere.


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I'm not sure what you mean here. But the developers who has projects going, tend to release updates from time to time, and some of them even new projects occasionally.


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Amiga compatibility requires a single CPU, open 31-bit memory space, etc. That's the "rules" defined by Amiga. Both MorphOS and the Amiga/MorphOS applications plays by these rules. A *clean and proper* switch to SMP, true memory protection, more than 2GB addressable RAM, etc requires either adaption/rewrite of the SW, or sandboxing it (for example in UAE, like AROS does).


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I don't agree with that, I think the MorphZone forums are more active now than ever, much thanks to the many new users coming in. But basically, if you compare the posts of MorphZone and, say, amigaworld.net, you will see that the AW.net has more of an IRC like chat-room posting culture, while MorphZone threads/posts generally has more substance and thought behind it.

It's quite common that people jumps to conclusions about "amount of users" or "amount of developers" of MorphOS vs. OS4 based on their perceived views of forum activity on various forums (such as MorphZone vs. Amiga.org or AW.net), you are not the first to do this. But that has more to do with the "posting culture" of various forums than anything else. And many MorphOS users are also registered on those other forums as well and participates in the discussions over there (where the posting culture is different), and many old-timer AW.net or Amiga.org users are MorphOS users. Sure, MorphOS "is" MorphZone, but MorphOS "is" *also* Amiga.org and AmigaWorld.net (etc, etc). So you can't draw any conclusions about the amount of users/developers of a platform based upon your perceived view of activity on various forums!


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Nope! Regardless if "development" (whatever that means) would be slowing or not, it has no connection whatsoever on the posting frequency of MorphZone forums.


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No of course you are not wrong, and I think it's quite obvious that MorphOS *is* leading in the competition!

> AmiStore by AmigaKit

According to http://www.amistore.net it's by A-Eon.

> It has done something before AmigaOS could do.

Yes, many things, for instance coming into existence on PPC.

> If the original company had still remained open for a few more years, they would
> have been the "first" to develop (or improve) a laptop computer, even before Apple.

Amiga Corp. would have had to hurry to achieve this, considering that Apple released its first laptop computer as early as 1989.

> are developers secretly sneaking [...] hardware development?

I doubt there's hardware development specially for MorphOS.

> Andreas Wolf is constantly adding everything and anything that's happening on
> the PPC front.

No, I'm not. What I post to this site is only a small fraction of "everything and anything that's happening on the PPC front". It's just the things I consider interesting.

> AmiStore [...] seems to increase software development for AmigaOS PowerPC.

News from AMIStore:

"Product: DvPlayer [...] Version 0.8 with composite video support [...]
The latest version supports the new composite video standard introduced in the RadeonHD 2.3 driver which enables GPU hardware accelerated Composited HD video playback in full screen mode. Composited video is similar to "textured video" but with all the power and flexibility that CompositeTags() provides (alpha blending, vertex arrays, etc.). This enables GPU accelerated YUV to RGB conversion, leaving the CPU more time for video decoding. YUV bitmaps are also smaller than ARGB so there's much less data to copy to the graphics card."
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/AMIstore_Brochure_DvPlayer_wip.pdf

"Product: Workbench CANDI [...] Version 1.0 [...]
Workbench CANDI introduces the world of composite desktop animation to the AmigaOS Workbench. [...] Workbench CANDI (Composite Animated Desktop Images) takes advantage of the hardware compositing engine built into the RadeonHD drivers and totally integrates with the Workbench background image. [...] CANDI is fully compatible with the AmigaOS screen dragging feature and more importantly works seamlessly with hardware accelerated compositing video playback introduced with the new RadeonHD v2.4 drivers. [...]
System Requirements: [...]
Recommended: AmigaOS4.1 - Final Edition, RadeonHD v2.4 drivers [...]"
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/AMIstore_Brochure_CANDI.pdf

"Product: RADIANCE Multimedia Suite [...] Version 1.0 [...]
The Radiance Multimedia Suite [...] includes a whole host of new software, utilities, contributions and multimedia content. [...]
System Requirements: [...]
Recommended: AmigaOS 4.1 Update 8 [...]"
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/AMIstore_Brochure_Radiance.pdf

"Product: Personal Paint Next-Generation [...] Version 7.3 [...]
Personal Paint Next-Generation is a completely reworked update of the venerable palette mapped bitmap graphics painting and image processing program originally developed by Cloanto for the Classic AmigaOS. The new version has been fully ported to AmigaOS 4.1 with a whole host of new features added. [...]
System Requirements: [...]
Recommended: AmigaOS 4.1 Update 8"
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/AMIstore_Brochure_PersonalPaint_OS4.pdf

"Product: Personal Paint Classic New 68k version [...] Version 7.3 68K [...]
Personal Paint Classic is a completely reworked update of the venerable palette mapped bitmap graphics painting and image processing program originally developed by Cloanto for the Classic AmigaOS. [...]
System Requirements: [...]
Recommended: [...] AmigaOS 4.1 - Final Edition"
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/AMIstore_Brochure_PersonalPaint_68k.pdf

For every link it says

"Error Retrieving Document

Page does not exist or there has been a problem displaying page."

From which page did the links work?

> For every link it says "Error Retrieving Document
> Page does not exist or there has been a problem displaying page."

It seems A-Eon was fast enough to delete/rename the PDF files or change the path to them :-)

> From which page did the links work?

From the directory listing of http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/ which has now apparently been deactivated by putting a redirection there.

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Not an app store (as it misses the payment thing) but a convenient and nice way to get new "apps" (old speak: programs) is Grunch -> http://www.geit.de/eng_grunch.html

Install or update programs on a single click. Works like a charm.

Pascal is working on an app store though for a bunch of different OS's, including all NG Amigas.

But yes, when it comes to free programs and updates nothing beats Grunch

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There are no camps anymore. None of the Amiga-like variants are taking over the world. There are only the delusional and the leeches on one side, and the realistic on the other side.

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As some have mentioned, there is Grunch. No credit card needed. With very few exceptions, anything worth running on MorphOS is either provided by the core developers or free by a third party. In my opinion, a pay app store would do far more harm than good when you have almost no quality commercial software available.

Why people on the OS4 side are pushing multiple pay app stores is beyond me, except for milking the users. Most of the software will be for things free on MorphOS. GFX card driver? Free on MorphOS. 3D support? Free on morphOS. Video player. Free on MorphOS. OS4 seems to follow the old OS3.X tradition of charging a premium for the most mundane software.

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Strawman. Neither binary compatible compatible Amiga-like option will be getting SMP or MP support anytime in the near future. Certain talking heads on the OS4 side have been making these claims for over a decade, but their track record speaks for itself.

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Not boring or inactive at all, just a different crowd. MorphOS is a polished product that works and doesn't need a ton of workarounds. There is also a lack of rabid advocacy, so the conversations that happen usually have more substance.

As compared to the other Amiga-like solutions, MorphOS is screaming forward at a breakneck pace. The last OS4 release, which was arguably just a very tiny bugfix, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6, was released in Nov 2012. In the time in between MorphOS has seen 6 major releases (3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 & 3.7). Checking the release notes, these were not all just minor bugfixes but major releases.


[ Edited by redrumloa 07.10.2014 - 18:29 ]

I wouldn't mind to pay for a MorphOS native Ppaint though. I hope Trevor will make it happen. At least he is a cool guy.

But it is true that most software is free and the rest is mostly sold out by now. A MorphOS dedicated online store would make more sense to me, but only barely since there would be no money earned for doing it. It had to be a project of love in that case.

> people on the OS4 side are pushing multiple pay app stores

Which OS4-specific "pay app store" is there or being developed beside AMIStore?

> Video player. Free on MorphOS.

MPlayer is free on OS4 as well.

> Neither binary compatible compatible Amiga-like option will be getting
> SMP or MP support anytime in the near future.

...or ever, as they'd become non-binary compatible as soon as they do ;-)

> Certain talking heads on the OS4 side have been making these claims
> for over a decade

Which claims exactly? And who do you mean specifically? Thomas "EntilZha" Frieden stated 8 years (so less than a decade) ago with quite reserved enthusiasm:

"There are plans for SMP, but these are for the time after OS 4.0 [...] The problem with multiple cores/CPUs with the current system is the semantic of Forbid/Permit. The original system, some system components, and a lot of software us it as a cheap single-threading mechanism... Of course, this doesn't translate to multiple cores, since then, a Forbid would have to lock out all other cores from running if that semantic would have to be retained. This is clearly [...] not a desireable solution. We've given this problem some thought, but we are not planning this for 4.0, so it's rather hypothetical right now. [...] So we're posponing that for 4.1 and beyond"
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20627&forum=1#326673
http://www.ping.de/sites/tarbos/pianeta_amiga_2006_log.txt

Or do you mean Fleecy Moss here? (Please, say you don't.) 11 years (so indeed more than a decade) ago, he uttered during his story time:

"SMP support is planned for release in either 4.1 or 4.2; with the rider that plans can change. I would also caution against the desire for or claims made on behalf of Symmetric Multi-Processing or SMP. It has its uses but ultimately is limited, rather like sticking more and more engines onto a four wheel car. Proper parallel computing through a matrix of separate processor elements, all with their own schedulers and organisation models - authoritarian, pluralist, service, anarchic etc offers a much better long term solution and is far more in the mould of 'Amiga, doing it first'."
http://web.archive.org/web/20071023110451/http://amigaworld.net/modules/fleecymoss/index.php?cat_id=3

"AmigaOS4 will support SMP first and then AMP second but it is more important for us to have a shipping product running on one processor first. I believe that a double G4 AmigaOne will be out in the next year - indeed a prototype dual processor module is already in our hands. We have a lot to do already in developing AG2 - graphics, audio and a new user environment to name but a few. These are much more important than supporting SMP in the short term and as I have said before, I see AMP as being far more important in the long run."
http://web.archive.org/web/20071201085645/http://amigaworld.net/modules/fleecymoss/index.php?cat_id=17

As you can see, even Fleecy was not too enthusiastic about SMP back then.

> The last OS4 release [...] AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6, was released in Nov 2012.

...and has seen 88 updated components since then:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9360&start=49

Hi,
this one is available for morphOS as well:
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=90330

Don't mix up the client with the "store". The store is a server front-end with API (open so it could be used in Grunch for example). Developers can upload there stuff for free and as long it is free software user can download it for free as well.

It is not ready yet for prime time but usable already (we rolled out a new(final) UI for the Developer Interface some days ago). Now we introduced some quirks with and after fixing them we will give developers a guide and a video how to.

We will also add a "upload via URL" function, so developers who put up stuff on other places already can just tell the server where to download it from. (the server will store it on its own storage to eliminate the risk of dead links)

2 more weeks... maybe 3.
I will focus on games and my distributions but some music is available as well already.

---------
MorphOS specific:
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=10145&post_id=114058&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1

[ Edited by phoenixkonsole 08.10.2014 - 18:49 ]

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Mplayer for OS4 is not as mature as it is for MorphOS, which is why DVPlayer is popular but not free. DVPlayer is even prominently displayed in these Amistore screenshots. Actually, of the 8 pay commercial software items shown in that first screenshot, 4 of them are OS components which the equivalent on MorphOS or any other modern OS, would be free. (That is assuming the Warp3D shown would be the announced upcoming Warp3D for RadeonHD which will be commercial)

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Agreed.

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Pretty sure the worst was Ben Hermans. You don't have his statements indexed?

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You don't really consider teeny single file bugfixes to br an official OS updates, do you? All 88 updates wouldn't equal a single MorphOS release in scope.

I'm not ragging on OS4 here, just partial opinion and part fact.

Opinion - That a commercial software store that is exclusive to OS4 is quite silly when there is a lack of commercial software.

Fact - OS4 development is at a near standstill compared to MorphOS. I just had to take issue with the assertion that development of MorphOS must be slow because post count on Morphzone can be low at times.

> The store is a server front-end

...or back-end? :-)

> 2 more weeks...

;-).

@phoenixconsole

Will it still be a mix of free and commercial software?

>>> Video player. Free on MorphOS.

>> MPlayer is free on OS4 as well.

> Mplayer for OS4 is not as mature as it is for MorphOS

This may be, but does not change the fact that it is free on OS4.

> DVPlayer is even prominently displayed in these Amistore screenshots.

...and so is MPlayer.

>>> Certain talking heads on the OS4 side have been making these claims for over a decade

>> Which claims exactly? And who do you mean specifically?

> Pretty sure the worst was Ben Hermans. You don't have his statements indexed?

I just went for a deeper search and as a result can come up with these gems from between February 2002 (bottom) and August 2003 (top):

"AmigaOS doesn't have threads, just tasks and processes (which are tasks initiated via DOS I believe). Multithreading will be introduced in 4.1, we already have a design document for it by Hans-Joerg Frieden. We need it for efficient SMP and other reasons."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1056&forum=14#11466

"According to the kernel team, SMP is perfectly possible in Amiga OS 4.x. Ofcourse not everything will be able to benefit from it, that much is clear. But even if only new apps would be able to use it, it would still be far preferable to not having it at all."
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1045856742&category=news&start=101#message138

"OS 4.x will be able to use SMP, exactly because our design is much different than the one used in MorphOS."
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1045856742&category=news&start=51#message92

"I don't consider SMP vital at all"
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1037943424&category=web&start=101#message119

"It's about moving the AmigaOS further into the future with things like full memory protection, SMP, multithreading etc. As this work progresses, more and more old software will break."
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1036361376&category=news&start=51#message93

"we will add multi-processing down the line but we are still debating on whether this should be SMP. SMP presents some serious limitations."
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1019641769&category=news&start=51#message74

"dual CPU boards are useless to Amiga users. Exec SG doesn't support SMP and by the time it will, more affordable and more powerful solutions than the AmigaOne will already be available."
http://anna.amigazeux.org/comments2.php?view=1014497096&category=forum&start=1#message19

It reads like his enthusiasm regarding SMP rose during those 1.5 years :-)

>>> The last OS4 release [...] AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6, was released in Nov 2012.

>> ...and has seen 88 updated components since then

> You don't really consider teeny single file bugfixes to br an official OS updates, do you?

These "teeny single file bugfixes" are OS updates and they are official, which makes them official OS updates. I really don't see how this is arguable. They have not constituted the release of a new OS revision so far, but then nobody claimed they had.

> All 88 updates wouldn't equal a single MorphOS release in scope.

I don't think this is true, apart from the fact that it's 88 updated components, not just 88 updates (components that have been updated several times are listed only once). Just compare with the number of updated components and type of changes in:
http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/3.7
http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/3.5
http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/3.3
http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/3.1
http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/2.7

To me it's obvious that -- contrary to your claim -- the 88 updated OS4 components exceed every single one of those 5 listed MorphOS releases in scope.

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Yes,
I will Host also PD and Demo files. I contacted right holders of classic Games allready but we need to finish it First and reach a userbase of around 1000 Users. So far it is at 209
With the AREOS for pi Users it could bump to 4-800 depending how much have already a Account. So over all camps we will reach the nummer. This is about Games a la quake, Duke nukem, ATX fatalistis and so on. Until then i will Host shareware and Demo files of them.

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All talk and no action vs vice-versa, I know which I prefer. :)

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True. Bugfix releases (odd revision numbers) have only few components updated. On the other hand MorphOS release notes dont include all updated components when it is a major release (even revision numbers) and often include new components.

Number of updates doesn't say anything about the quality, in neither direction.

> Number of updates doesn't say anything about the quality, in neither direction.

True. I just wanted to refute the claim that OS4.1 had no updates since the release of Update 6. It's just not fair to dismiss the updated OS4 components and at the same time talk up the MorphOS bugfix releases (with odd revision numbers) as the second coming.

>> the 88 updated OS4 components exceed every single one of those 5 listed MorphOS
>> releases in scope.

> True.

Thanks for confirmation.

>> MorphOS has seen 6 major releases (3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 & 3.7). Checking
>> the release notes, these were not all just minor bugfixes but major releases.

> Bugfix releases (odd revision numbers) have only few components updated.

Thanks for refuting.