MorphZone

Pirate MUI4 updated, how incompatible is this branch now?

redrumloa

# 1
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7527

If a programmer were targeting the pirate version of MUI4 say of an OS3.X program, what kind of problems would he face porting the program to real MUI4 on MorphOS?
»01.10.15 - 17:25

connor

# 2
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 570 from 2007/7/29

Is it really pirated? As far as I know they have an agreement with stuntzi or other MOS Team MUI devs.

To measure the incompatibility is really difficult though. It could help if there was an all in one program like the original demo programs using all functions from MUI5. If the same compiles on OS3/MUI4 and works perfectly then they have done their job. If not you should see what is incompatible. This would also be useful for Zune on AROS. But the question is why any of the sides should code this program. The OS3/4 team knows that it is behind. The AROS team knows that it is far behind. And the MOS team should develop their own software and improve MUI instead of doing the work of others.

In general if a dev is targeting MUI4/OS3 or OS4 then he does it wrong from the start and should be slapped for it. If he wants to do it right then he should develop it for the newst version MUI5 and see what does not work with MUI4/OS3/OS4. Then tell this forked MUI team what is working wrong so they can repair it.
»01.10.15 - 17:47

itix

# 3
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1520 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

I see it other way around. MUI4 for OS3 makes it easier to port software from MorphOS. There are some incompatibilies since MUI4 doesnt have all features from MUI5 but gap to MUI3 would be even bigger.
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»01.10.15 - 18:31

Andreas_Wolf

# 4
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12163 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> It could help if there was an all in one program like the original demo programs using
> all functions from MUI5. [...] If he wants to do it right then he should develop it for
> the newst version MUI5 and see what does not work with MUI4/OS3/OS4.

MUI5? Seems I missed something :-)
»01.10.15 - 21:05

Sprocki

# 5
Acolyte of the Butterfly

Posts: 128 from 2005/2/23

From: Berlin - Germany

Obviously you missed to call MUI settings of a recent MorphOS release.
»01.10.15 - 22:06

Andreas_Wolf

# 6
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12163 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> Obviously you missed to call MUI settings of a recent MorphOS release.

Indeed. Which MorphOS release was the first to come with MUI5?
»01.10.15 - 23:18

amigadave

# 7
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2795 from 2006/3/21

From: Northern Calif...

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7527

If a programmer were targeting the pirate version of MUI4 say of an OS3.X program, what kind of problems would he face porting the program to real MUI4 on MorphOS?

Wouldn't it be more productive and helpful for all users and programmers if the team of MorphOS developers who maintains and adds improvements to MUI for MorphOS would license their work at a small fee for the AROS and AmigaOS3.x & 4.x platforms?

I don't expect them give away their work, or to do the work for other platforms that they are not interested in using or supporting, but our community has such a small amount of software development, having different MUI versions which complicates compatibility and makes it harder to port software to ALL Amiga inspired platforms, is not a good thing for any of us. It seems to me that a small license fee for the other platforms to be able to use the same version of MUI would be the best and simplest answer to solve the incompatibilities caused by different forks of MUI.
MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
»01.10.15 - 23:24

Jim

# 8
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Ah, this is all levels of f*cked up.
Just leave the OS4 and AROS users alone.

A more unified MUI isn't going to hurt US.

You guys ought to be flattered.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»01.10.15 - 23:42

amigadave

# 9
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2795 from 2006/3/21

From: Northern Calif...

Quote:

Jim wrote:
Ah, this is all levels of f*cked up.
Just leave the OS4 and AROS users alone.

A more unified MUI isn't going to hurt US.

You guys ought to be flattered.

It might lead to some software that is not ported to MorphOS either because the programmer writing it does not like the fact that MUI for MorphOS is not ported to other Amiga inspired platforms, or they used some incompatible part of the ?hacked? MUI4 for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x.

You are probably right that it is unlikely that leaving things just as they are now will not hurt the MorphOS users much, but it does leave a bad impression with some of the users of Amiga inspired platforms other than MorphOS, when MUI for MorphOS is not available for their chosen platform.

The bad feelings regarding the unauthorized use of parts of MUI4 for MorphOS (I think it was header files, or documentation, or some such files) would never have happened, if MUI4 for MorphOS would have been licensed to programmers of AROS, AmigaOS3.x & 4.x. I write that not to imply in any way that the behavior of copying and altering someone else's code is ever justified, only that it would never have happened, if all Amiga inspired platforms had access to the latest MUI4 features. They obviously want to use MUI4, or it would not have been copied. The jerks that did the copying should not have altered it, and should have asked for permission first. They were wrong in every sense of the word.

All I am saying is that we don't need any additional reasons for bad feelings between different camps in our community, so if MUI4 could have been licensed, perhaps paid for with a bounty, like the sharing of OWB code was done, we would not have any of this problem for some people to fight about.

I am all for less fighting, as it doesn't help anyone, and only hurts all of us.
MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
»02.10.15 - 03:24

Cego

# 10
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 733 from 2006/5/28

From: Germany

i'm absolutely against any cooperation between these camps when it comes to mui4. why? its obvious to see that hyperion cant deliver all the badly needed functions of the system and all the latest efforts from os4 devs looks like a desperate effort to keep the system in some way alive and uptodate.

we as morphos community are not responsible for their situation and therefore we should not support them in their politics in doing things the way the do for a lot of years. let them go down, i dont care.

if we help them out and make morphos codes and system components available for them to use, it would only mean that we reward and Support those people behind the system, who probably did almost everything wrong. mos team put hard work into their stuff to become what it is today. os4 devs did nothing but lie to their people. let em starve.

and besides that, when did we benefit from their work? they tried everything to keep us away from their software.
Pegasos II G4 @1.0GHz, 1GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9200Pro, 240GB SSD+160GB HD, MorphOS 3.18, AmigaOS4.1 FE, Debian 8
»02.10.15 - 05:35

Cego

# 11
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 733 from 2006/5/28

From: Germany

and all of a sudden its about "we are all in the same boat". quite funny that this comes to mind when os4 is about to crash at the wall and os4 people realizing their Situation and future looks pretty bad. they've got OWB. that should be enough support. we've reached our hands.
Pegasos II G4 @1.0GHz, 1GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9200Pro, 240GB SSD+160GB HD, MorphOS 3.18, AmigaOS4.1 FE, Debian 8
»02.10.15 - 05:41

itix

# 12
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1520 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

Quote:

I write that not to imply in any way that the behavior of copying and altering someone else's code is ever justified, only that it would never have happened, if all Amiga inspired platforms had access to the latest MUI4 features. They obviously want to use MUI4, or it would not have been copied.

Personally I have no problem if some parts of MorphOS were licensed to other parties. Pecunia non olet.
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»02.10.15 - 06:43

takemehomegrandma

# 13
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

@Cego

I agree with everything you wrote above. Official OS4 owners and managers as well as most of its users and supporters has done nothing but tormenting, haunting, and trying to shoot down the MorphOS project with FUD and BS legal threats since the very beginning. The owners of OS4 established themselves as crooks and scammers pretty early on, and the OS4 history is paved with profiteering on substandard and more or less broken stuff to a cheering crowd of misleads. And now when it has become obvious to most people that OS4 stalled in a ditch, then suddenly voices are raised about "cooperation", which in practice means nothing else than the MorphOS team should simply surrender and one-sided hand over everything valuable in the MorphOS to the people that has done nothing but fight and trying to kill MorphOS off in the past. "One-sided", because OS4 doesn't have anything needed or wanted by MorphOS.

Looking back from where we are now, it is obvious that OS4 was never more than a side track, a parenthesis, and a dead-end. It was always redundant, never offering anything to the community that an already existing option would do better. Let it fade away silently...

Quote:

Cego wrote:
and all of a sudden its about "we are all in the same boat". quite funny that this comes to mind when os4 is about to crash at the wall and os4 people realizing their Situation and future looks pretty bad. they've got OWB. that should be enough support. we've reached our hands.

Speaking of browsers as a "cooperation example", the difference between "Timberwolf" and "Odyssey" is very telling. The Timberwolf project bent over backwards in their effort to make an Open Source project proprietary in essence with the sole purpose of preventing MorphOS and AROS from benefiting the slightest from the community funded Open Source project. Cooperation? Then they grabbed the money and ran off before even releasing a functioning product. Odyssey on the other hand was a finished and good quality Amiga style browser on MorphOS that went from proprietary to open source for all parts of the community to benefit from. AROS has recently released the 1.25 version, for example.
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»02.10.15 - 06:47

kamelito

# 14
Acolyte of the Butterfly

Posts: 103 from 2011/9/21

Quote:

itix a écrit :
I see it other way around. MUI4 for OS3 makes it easier to port software from MorphOS. There are some incompatibilies since MUI4 doesnt have all features from MUI5 but gap to MUI3 would be even bigger.

@Itix,
I never heard of MUI5 just internal or do you consider MUI4 under AO4 and call it MUI5 for Morphos?

Kamelito

[ Edité par kamelito 02.10.2015 - 12:14 ]
»02.10.15 - 11:14

connor

# 15
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 570 from 2007/7/29

@amigadave

AFAIK this agreement exists, otherwise it would have been stopped in public by the MOS devs in the beginning. The more important question is whether OS4 guys WANT to license it. They are the only one who generate income with anything. OS3 does not sell anymore, AROS never sold. So for these they had to set up a bounty. Which they could but never did. So maybe ask them first why they did not. Then you will get t he answer from 95% of the Os4 guys that they abandon MUI because it is not OS4. For the same reason they favor ReAction. Then you can ask the same question you asked about the MOS team why not help MUI port to OS4 and others: why don’t they take the chance to spread ReAction instead to everywhere and make everyone use their GUI tool? So the bad feelings come because the OS4 devs and most of the OS4 users do not want to use MUI just because it is not OS4. Funnily many OS4 third party devs WANT to use MUI but have to deal with ancient versions because of the decision of the other two groups (OS4 team and users). So the point is that OS4 team does not want to use MUI officially but inofficially they need to support it because of so many 3rd party software that they prefer to not get a full MUI license but just a light license with all the work done a second time to catch up with something that has already been developed.
And from the MOS team perspective: why support someone who broke your code rights repeatedly?
»02.10.15 - 11:21

Andreas_Wolf

# 16
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12163 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>> Just leave the OS4 and AROS users alone. A more unified MUI isn't going to hurt US.

> You are probably right that it is unlikely that leaving things just as they are now
> will not hurt the MorphOS users much

;-)

> the behavior of copying and altering someone else's code

MUI is closed source anyway.

> it would never have happened, if all Amiga inspired platforms had access to the
> latest MUI4 features.

By "features" you mean actual code, correct? After all, a complete reimplementation would provide access to all features as well (with some delay of course).
»02.10.15 - 11:45

OlafSch

# 17
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

connor schrieb:
@amigadave

AFAIK this agreement exists, otherwise it would have been stopped in public by the MOS devs in the beginning. The more important question is whether OS4 guys WANT to license it. They are the only one who generate income with anything. OS3 does not sell anymore, AROS never sold. So for these they had to set up a bounty. Which they could but never did. So maybe ask them first why they did not. Then you will get t he answer from 95% of the Os4 guys that they abandon MUI because it is not OS4. For the same reason they favor ReAction. Then you can ask the same question you asked about the MOS team why not help MUI port to OS4 and others: why don’t they take the chance to spread ReAction instead to everywhere and make everyone use their GUI tool? So the bad feelings come because the OS4 devs and most of the OS4 users do not want to use MUI just because it is not OS4. Funnily many OS4 third party devs WANT to use MUI but have to deal with ancient versions because of the decision of the other two groups (OS4 team and users). So the point is that OS4 team does not want to use MUI officially but inofficially they need to support it because of so many 3rd party software that they prefer to not get a full MUI license but just a light license with all the work done a second time to catch up with something that has already been developed.
And from the MOS team perspective: why support someone who broke your code rights repeatedly?

you seem to be fixed on "red vs. blue" it seems. There is also AROS. Why noone ever has helped the Aros devs to improve it if MorphOS camp are the good and only the others (OS4 camp) against cooperation. The truth is that both camps are not really cooperative (except some people like Fab or Stefan Stuntz).

Why having MUI as standard equal on all platforms? Because it would make porting easier, MorphOS has not much 3rd party development as far as I see it so it would be a big benefit. Zune is far behind? Even if for porting exactly which applications needing MUI5? It is getting updated for OWB 1.25 right now, I do not see many more applications needing it. You?
»02.10.15 - 12:01

OlafSch

# 18
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

redrumloa schrieb:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7527

If a programmer were targeting the pirate version of MUI4 say of an OS3.X program, what kind of problems would he face porting the program to real MUI4 on MorphOS?

beyond robbing, stealing or pirating you do not start any threads, don´t you?
»02.10.15 - 12:04

Jim

# 19
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

>MUI is closed source anyway.

Is it?

Were the rights wholly transferred to the MorphOS development team, or does Stefan Stuntz, who Andre once refereed to as "[the]creator of MUI (Magic User Interface)" still retain rights?

Obviously Stuntz doesn't object to these new projects.

Yes, our developers have enhanced Stefan's creation.

Maybe we need to get over it.

>By "features" you mean actual code, correct? After all, a complete reimplementation would provide access to all features as well (with some delay of course).

Andreas has pointed out, they need to re-implement the proprietary parts of the code not copy MorphOS code.

I am all for a unified MUI across all platforms.
There are multiple ways to resolve this.
Give them the code, but they won't thank us, and I can't see our developers doing this "out of the kindness of their hearts".
Offer to license the code, but hard feeling and hubris may interfere with that.
OR, let them struggle to finesse it on their own.

I'd prefer one of the first two solutions, but will probably have to settle for the last.

[ Edited by Jim 02.10.2015 - 07:10 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»02.10.15 - 12:06

Andreas_Wolf

# 20
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12163 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> OS4 was [...] never offering anything to the community that an
> already existing option would do better.

;-)

> they grabbed the money

It was given to them by the mystical "Amigabounty committee" :-)

> and ran off

There was an update after the bounty was declared fulfilled.

Edit: Trevor Dickinson revealed he was a committee member:

"I was also on the 'AmigaBount.net' [sic] committee, a non-profit organisation dedicated to AmigaOS 4 development which closed down over five years ago."
https://www.exec.pl/article.jsp?nid=189&Amiga_present_and_future:_interview_with_Trevor_Dickinson

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 21.04.2019 - 17:40 ]
»02.10.15 - 12:38

OlafSch

# 21
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

takemehomegrandma schrieb:
@Cego

I agree with everything you wrote above. Official OS4 owners and managers as well as most of its users and supporters has done nothing but tormenting, haunting, and trying to shoot down the MorphOS project with FUD and BS legal threats since the very beginning. The owners of OS4 established themselves as crooks and scammers pretty early on, and the OS4 history is paved with profiteering on substandard and more or less broken stuff to a cheering crowd of misleads. And now when it has become obvious to most people that OS4 stalled in a ditch, then suddenly voices are raised about "cooperation", which in practice means nothing else than the MorphOS team should simply surrender and one-sided hand over everything valuable in the MorphOS to the people that has done nothing but fight and trying to kill MorphOS off in the past. "One-sided", because OS4 doesn't have anything needed or wanted by MorphOS.

Looking back from where we are now, it is obvious that OS4 was never more than a side track, a parenthesis, and a dead-end. It was always redundant, never offering anything to the community that an already existing option would do better. Let it fade away silently...

Quote:

Cego wrote:
and all of a sudden its about "we are all in the same boat". quite funny that this comes to mind when os4 is about to crash at the wall and os4 people realizing their Situation and future looks pretty bad. they've got OWB. that should be enough support. we've reached our hands.

Speaking of browsers as a "cooperation example", the difference between "Timberwolf" and "Odyssey" is very telling. The Timberwolf project bent over backwards in their effort to make an Open Source project proprietary in essence with the sole purpose of preventing MorphOS and AROS from benefiting the slightest from the community funded Open Source project. Cooperation? Then they grabbed the money and ran off before even releasing a functioning product. Odyssey on the other hand was a finished and good quality Amiga style browser on MorphOS that went from proprietary to open source for all parts of the community to benefit from. AROS has recently released the 1.25 version, for example.

you miss the topic... MUI is not only a OS feature, it is a GUI toolkit used in applications. So sharing MUI making chances higher getting softwre ported from other platforms. So even if both AROS and AmigaOS have nothing to offer what would be interesting then having a standardized MUI would offer benefits for MorphOS. And there is the strong point of AmigaOS, third party development (the weak part of MorphOS). So it is shortsighted to point at Hyperion and say we are against cooperation because they were bad to us in the past. But it is not important anyway, from AROS point of view I see not much of interest on the software side so if OWB perfectly works on Aros mission is accomplished, whatever MUI5 might have additionally.
»02.10.15 - 13:20

Minuous

# 22
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 161 from 2010/2/12

>Why having MUI as standard equal on all platforms? Because it would make porting easier

The same could be said for ReAction...

>Then you will get t he answer from 95% of the Os4 guys that they abandon MUI because it is not OS4. For the same reason they favor ReAction.

Not at all, ReAction was around and was the official Amiga GUI before OS4 or MOS even existed. There are various reasons to avoid MUI.

>why don’t they take the chance to spread ReAction instead to everywhere

I don't know why. It would be a good idea. If Hyperion are not willing, it might be possible to licence it from H&P or the original developers. Or, of course, an API-compatible reimplementation could be done. It just doesn't make sense to blame Hyperion for the fact that MOS and AROS are missing RA support. Like I said, it was around before OS4 even existed.
»02.10.15 - 13:51

geit

# 23
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1049 from 2004/9/23

Quote:

Jim wrote:
>MUI is closed source anyway.

Is it?

Were the rights wholly transferred to the MorphOS development team, or does Stefan Stuntz, who Andre once refereed to as "[the]creator of MUI (Magic User Interface)" still retain rights?

Obviously Stuntz doesn't object to these new projects.

Well, Stefan Stuntz >>is<< still part of the MorphOS team. No just as a name in some about window. You can turn facts as often as you want on this.

Quote:

Jim wrote:Yes, our developers have enhanced Stefan's creation.

No they didn´t. They took some old Porsche design (Beetle) and modified it as much as it takes to look like a real Porsche, but it isn´t.

Also adding new features to FrankenMUI does not make it more or better. Some of these features are even unwanted by the original MUI design, but who cares what the original developers and the official maintainers say. Just add all the crab and hope for the best.

I personally stumpled over MUI issues on OS4 before the V4 mess. Thats why I discontinued supporting/creating OS4 binaries for my applications. Support/Debugging ate more time than I wanted to spent.

I am looking forward to see the whole FrankenMUI4 building collapse. When fixing compatiblity problems results in non working applications.

OS4, AROS and OS3 do not have a proper MUI4. They never had. They just have bits and pieces needed to make some applications work.
»02.10.15 - 14:03

Andreas_Wolf

# 24
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12163 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> OS3 does not sell anymore

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-11-00010-EN.html :-)

> OS4 third party devs [...] have to deal with ancient versions

No, they have to deal with incomplete reimplementations of current versions. See posting #1 in this very thread.
»02.10.15 - 14:13

OlafSch

# 25
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

geit schrieb:
Quote:

Jim wrote:
>MUI is closed source anyway.

Is it?

Were the rights wholly transferred to the MorphOS development team, or does Stefan Stuntz, who Andre once refereed to as "[the]creator of MUI (Magic User Interface)" still retain rights?

Obviously Stuntz doesn't object to these new projects.

Well, Stefan Stuntz >>is<< still part of the MorphOS team. No just as a name in some about window. You can turn facts as often as you want on this.

Quote:

Jim wrote:Yes, our developers have enhanced Stefan's creation.

No they didn´t. They took some old Porsche design (Beetle) and modified it as much as it takes to look like a real Porsche, but it isn´t.

Also adding new features to FrankenMUI does not make it more or better. Some of these features are even unwanted by the original MUI design, but who cares what the original developers and the official maintainers say. Just add all the crab and hope for the best.

I personally stumpled over MUI issues on OS4 before the V4 mess. Thats why I discontinued supporting/creating OS4 binaries for my applications. Support/Debugging ate more time than I wanted to spent.

I am looking forward to see the whole FrankenMUI4 building collapse. When fixing compatiblity problems results in non working applications.

OS4, AROS and OS3 do not have a proper MUI4. They never had. They just have bits and pieces needed to make some applications work.

In one thing you are wrong... fixing compatibility to what? MUI5 on MorphOS? The simple result will be there will be MUI applications that only work on one platform and will never be ported because too much work or simple impossible.
»02.10.15 - 14:16