Genesi... How about making new G4 cpu cards for PegasosII?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>>> some machines were sold as low power servers, including for the small enterprise,
    >>>>> what if the enterprise decides to add an add on card with a PCI bridge on it ?
    >>>>> So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..

    >>>> There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers,
    >>>> but i doubt so. And in any case, you won't have access to it. The Pegasos had its time,
    >>>> you can do nothing but to speculate now.

    >>> If the cpu cards can be re-created, then the entire design will be known and it could be
    >>> re-implemented.

    >> How would this help with coming by an updated SmartFirmware that remedies the
    >> current limitations like the unability to see behind a PCI bridge?

    > that in no way addresses the SmartFirmware issue

    Okay, so I was wrong thinking you must have addressed this because it's what you replied to :-)
  • »14.02.14 - 21:57
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    CountRaven
    Posts: 563 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    The big goal would be a new board, in todays standards and on an affordable price. Board should be specialized for MorphOS. And MorphOS to be specialized for this board. PPC, ARM or x86 does not make any difference to me.

    But it would make sense to me a MorphOS machine for the everydsy tasks. Imagine for example a nice media server box able to play HD, plugged via hdmi on a TV and running MorphOS....

    If a company could get it seriously, joining forces with the team, this would be a new page.
  • »15.02.14 - 02:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Board should be specialized for MorphOS. And MorphOS to be specialized for this board.

    MorphOS should support most (or preferably all) features of such board, yes. But I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS has already drivers for?). A newly developed board produced in very small batches should attract as many niche operating systems as possible in order to increase potential sales and thus minimize the price as much as possible. You might remember this failed attempt from some years back:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

    The initiator went to message boards of several niche operating systems (MorphOS, OS4, Haiku, Linux/PPC...) and tried to raise interest there but failed to gain traction. To me this is a clear indicator that a board "specialized for MorphOS" wouldn't be a feasible project.
  • »15.02.14 - 11:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2033 from 2003/6/4
    I also think it'll be very unrealistic to make new board for MorphOS alone that should catch up to modern desktop area domain. There are too many obstacles on the way.

    But I could imagine a simple real low cost board could be interesting. Look to raspberry pi and the many other ARM mini boards. A similar approach with a ppc in it instead of an ARM could be of some interest.
    It'll be not as cheap as those tiny ARM boards, but price is not always the only factor (as long as the price doesn't exceed sanity as it is the case with X1000).

    A few years ago I thought that with the 5125 some interesting stuff could have been done - but that'sprobably too little by todays standards, even for a 50 EUR board. But some low end QorIQ could do the job (but for MorphOS compability one not having an e500v2 core wich limits the choice within the low end domain virtually to teh T1020 and T1022). Keep many I/O lines accessible, QorIQ has quite some network power, and maybe put an FPGA in place (adds cost of course, but offers some benefit over the ultra cheap ARM boards) and you'll have an interesting tinkering device. A little geek toy/dev/router board, quite a bit more than a pi, but less than a normal computer. And geeky OSes.
    If I had some venture capital I'd try that. But I haven't...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »15.02.14 - 20:35
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  • Just looking around
    Jose
    Posts: 15 from 2014/2/12
    Just a curiosity, does the Efika have the same problem with getting access to hardware under bridges ?
  • »15.02.14 - 22:26
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    CountRaven
    Posts: 563 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:


    MorphOS should support most (or preferably all) features of such board, yes. But I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS has already drivers for?). A newly developed board produced in very small batches should attract as many niche operating systems as possible in order to increase potential sales and thus minimize the price as much as possible. You might remember this failed attempt from some years back:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

    The initiator went to message boards of several niche operating systems (MorphOS, OS4, Haiku, Linux/PPC...) and tried to raise interest there but failed to gain traction. To me this is a clear indicator that a board "specialized for MorphOS" wouldn't be a feasible project.



    A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers for... This is a case, yes. But some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list. Hardware that would make this new board useful closer to todays standards, should this board remain on PPC architecture? If this would make the board combined with MorphOS, useful for everyday tasks, ok. Stay PPC. This is a first option.

    Second option? As an alternative, an approaching to existing hardware architecture that MorphOS is not currently supporting, could be a case, if that approaching could drive to the result of a more effective ussage of this hardware by the os. It is a fact that we do not need hundrends of gigabytes and lots of horsepower to be able to have a fast everyday computer, useful to do basic things based on todays stabdards. I paid less than 30 euros for raspberry pi and I am able to view hd videos, listen to music and surf the web fast. I paid less than 80 euros for an android mini PC that also can do the above and it can play flash also. So? Come on, it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed for MorphOS to jump on this train, that is why -in both options-, a serious company is needed, to support a new product and join forces with the team.

    I would pay and donate again and again for a new board. A board would be the first one on my desktop, letting me do everything I need ussing MorphOS and nothing else. No one said no to more operating systems that would expand a user base, but MorphOS should be a priority, like it was on Pegasos.

    [ Edited by CountRaven 17.02.2014 - 21:59 ]
  • »16.02.14 - 03:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > limits the choice within the low end domain virtually to teh T1020 and T1022

    T1020 will probably be more expensive than T1022 but won't add anything useful in terms of desktop purposes.
  • »16.02.14 - 09:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever
    >> that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS
    >> has already drivers for?).

    > A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers
    > for... This is a case, yes.

    I was more referring to the on-board components, not components the board could use via expansion slots (and which I don't consider being part of the actual board).

    > some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list.

    A new board for MorphOS (and other niche operating systems) would most likely use some highly integrated SoC, so these new MorphOS drivers would have to include drivers for the SoC's on-chip controllers.

    > it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed
    > for MorphOS to jump on this train

    I don't understand. Aren't "cheap" and "lots of money" mutually exclusive?

    > No one said no to more operating systems that would expand a user base

    In my opinion, a "board specialized for MorphOS" (you didn't answer yet what that means technically) wouldn't have any advantage over a board specialized for no particular OS. What's important is that the on-board components and the controllers integrated therein are publicly documented so driver development for any OS wouldn't have to resort to reverse engineering or similar measures.

    > MorphOS should be a priority, lime it was on Pegasos.

    bplan didn't prioritize MorphOS for the Pegasos. Linux had the same priority and was on the Pegasos even before MorphOS:

    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/first-pegasos-hardware.html
    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/pegasos-meets-morphos.html
  • »16.02.14 - 10:20
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    CountRaven
    Posts: 563 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:

    > A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers
    > for... This is a case, yes.

    I was more referring to the on-board components, not components the board could use via expansion slots (and which I don't consider being part of the actual board).

    > some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list.

    A new board for MorphOS (and other niche operating systems) would most likely use some highly integrated SoC, so these new MorphOS drivers would have to include drivers for the SoC's on-chip.


    Yes on board components should be of course supported. But a list of modern hardware to be used on expantion slots is akways important.


    > it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed
    > for MorphOS to jump on this train

    I don't understand. Aren't "cheap" and "lots of money" mutually exclusive?

    Lots of money are needed for a massive production of a board plus financial support for software development. That was my point.

    The final price of the board should be cheap on the other hand. I repeat that such a board should be capable to do everyday tasks on today's standards. I am able to do such stuff on a cheap pi board or on a cheap arm mini pc... Even on a geeky board running a geeky os everyday tasks should be able to be completed smoothly.



    [ Edited by CountRaven 17.02.2014 - 21:46 ]
  • »17.02.14 - 21:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    CountRaven
    Posts: 563 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    And to cut a long story sort, by ussing the word "specialized" I have in mind all those boards like Samantha or Nemo on Amiga X1000 which were made with the main purpose and goal to run AmigaOs 4.x. Something similar for MorphOS? Fast and affortable as I tried to describe on previous posts?



    [ Edited by CountRaven 18.02.2014 - 01:42 ]
  • »18.02.14 - 01:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> In my opinion, a "board specialized for MorphOS" (you didn't answer yet what that
    >> means technically) wouldn't have any advantage over a board specialized for no
    >> particular OS. What's important is that the on-board components and the controllers
    >> integrated therein are publicly documented so driver development for any OS
    >> wouldn't have to resort to reverse engineering or similar measures.

    > by ussing the word "specialized" I have in mind all those boards like Samantha
    > or Nemo on Amiga X1000 which were made with the main purpose and goal to
    > run AmigaOs 4.x.

    So your usage of the term "specialized" has only a marketing-oriented meaning, no technical meaning. Nothing on the Sam4x0 or Nemo boards is "specialized" for OS4 in any technical meaning of the term. They are general purpose computing boards based on Power Architecture SoCs which OS4 needed to be ported to, i.e. the kernel adapted to the specific Power ISA subset implemented by the PPC440(H6) and PA6T cores and drivers written for the various on-board controllers.
    So in technical terms, any general purpose board would qualify as "specialized for MorphOS" as long as it is marketed as such and MorphOS gets ported to it.

    And btw, whether or not the Sam4x0 boards really "were made with the main purpose and goal to run AmigaOs 4.x" is not so clear as you make it sound. After all, ACube's slogan is Power for your embedded ideas. Furthermore:

    "ACube Systems Srl is pleased to announce the official launch of the end-user version of its embedded motherboard Sam440ep [...]."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=news&id=14

    "The Sam460ex is made both for embedded and consumer markets. It can be adapted to different needs."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=5

    "ACube Systems is producing PowerPC motherboards for desktop and industrial markets."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=news&id=116


    Edit: ACube has now made a public statement comparing their Amiga sales to their non-Amiga sales:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&start=861

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 19.09.2014 - 13:44 ]
  • »18.02.14 - 09:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    tolkien
    Posts: 464 from 2013/5/29
    What we need are new machines.
    Computers with warranty and support. I buyed a powermac g5 and a powerbook g4 17 and both of them are died in less than a year and no one want/can repair them.
    Now I have two dead computers which cant afford to repair and two mos licenses to use with nothing.
    Im sad and tired of trying to make them work.
    MorphOS: PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini.
    Classic: Amiga 1200/060 - A500 PiStorm
  • »18.02.14 - 11:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
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    > What we need are new machines. Computers with warranty and support.

    That's what the Sam460 is supposed to be for MorphOS, I guess.

    > I buyed a powermac g5 and a powerbook g4 17 and both of them are died in less
    > than a year and no one want/can repair them. Now I have two dead computers
    > which cant afford to repair and two mos licenses to use with nothing.

    If your MorphOS machine breaks beyond repair you can request the MorphOS Team to transfer its MorphOS license to another machine. Going by reports so far, the MorphOS Team has been very obliging in this regard.
  • »18.02.14 - 11:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    CountRaven
    Posts: 563 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:


    What we need are new machines.
    Computers with warranty and support


    this.

    And on affortable prices.
  • »18.02.14 - 13:05
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    tolkien
    Posts: 464 from 2013/5/29
    True. All my family knows how I much love Amiga. I'll love to have a SAM and use both Amiga system. I like both of them.
    I have no idea about hardware cost but 1000 euros for a machine that was modern 15 years ago is much for me. I know It is difficult to low costs with this small market.
    Is there a PPC computer that can cost below 500 euros?

    Andreas, I know I can transfer my key to other machine. The problem is that at this moment is imposible for me to buy something.

    Hope to better times.
    MorphOS: PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini.
    Classic: Amiga 1200/060 - A500 PiStorm
  • »18.02.14 - 18:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    sell the smaller parts of you Apple's on Ebay, the laptop in parts ... they still sell for reasonable price. Sell the empty G5 tower locally to someone who wants to use it for a Hackintosh project .. With a little luck you sell well and you can afford yourself another working G4 or G5 powermac. All you have to to then is to transfer one of your licences to the new machine.

    Think positive, it seems you've got nothing to loose.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »18.02.14 - 18:31
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    tolkien
    Posts: 464 from 2013/5/29
    Thanks Oepabakkes. Yes...I need to think positive. I want at last one mos machine.I Like this OS so much.
    MorphOS: PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini.
    Classic: Amiga 1200/060 - A500 PiStorm
  • »18.02.14 - 18:47
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    Powermac G4's are dirt cheap and less prone to failure, mod the Radeon you have in the G5 so it runs in one of those and off you go !
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »18.02.14 - 18:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Is there a PPC computer that can cost below 500 euros?

    Yes, the latest PPC generation of gaming consoles ;-)

    > Andreas, I know I can transfer my key to other machine. The problem is that at this
    > moment is imposible for me to buy something.

    Ah okay, understood.
  • »18.02.14 - 19:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2033 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    tolkien schrieb:

    Is there a PPC computer that can cost below 500 euros?



    Depends all on volume and computing power.
    The following rule of thumb can be assumrd to be valid:
    Higher volume and lesser computing power yield to lower price.
    Low volume and high performance - > high price.

    additionally clever design choices can lower cost, too.

    That means: X1000 - low volume, rather high power and an, at least from the economic POV - suboptimal design choices (freaking expensive SoC, useless additions (the X stuff), huge board..) -> insane price

    Sam 460: less complex, not very powerful, low volume: Still expensive, but not as mad as X1000

    Efika: low end, cheap parts, simplified design, tiny board, mid size production run - pretty attractive price.

    Pegasos: mid range power (at its time), comparatively high volume -> competetive price.

    I think unless someone is not willing to invest serious money (production runs of at least 1000s) situation will not change much. The Amiga market alone is not sustainable for such an developemnt. It would require a design and a marketing strategy to sell these boards primarily outside Amiga world. My suggetsion is a low/mid cost tinkering board simlar to those ARM designs, but with some differences (emphasis on I/O and network - I mean that's what QorIQ are really capable of - maybe even drop some FPGA in to play with, but keep it as simpe as possible)


    btw.: what's wrong with the powerbook, quite some issues are fixable.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »18.02.14 - 21:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
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    How many Pegasos I and II where sold?
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  • »18.02.14 - 21:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11723 from 2003/5/22
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    > unless someone is not willing to invest serious money

    ;-)
  • »18.02.14 - 21:48
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  • Just looking around
    Jose
    Posts: 15 from 2014/2/12
    The Sam is too much underpowered, it doesn't even have AltiVec. Get a G4/G5 mac they go for peanuts...
    I'll probably get one myself, tired of not having hardware, I was going for an OS4 license but MOS is ahead in a bunch of stuff and in some ways they are more AmigaOS oriented than OS4 (just like some stuff they changed in the API without any need...).

    Sill, the ideal would be to be able to run both :)
  • »19.02.14 - 02:54
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