Genesi... How about making new G4 cpu cards for PegasosII?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The idea here was just that replacing the CPU with a 7448 could actually be
    > feasible. The bigger cache probably compensates for the slower bus BTW...

    The bus wouldn't be slower with the 7448 than it is with the 7447 now. My consideration was just to note that the speed gain would be less than the clock rate increase alone would imply as the *relative* bus speed compared to the CPU clock rate would decrease.

    >> with a 1.7 GHz 7448 I guess it wouldn't be a problem to find out the remaining
    >> PLL configs for multipliers of 11.5 (1.53 GHz), 12 (1.60 GHz), 12.5 (1.67 GHz)
    >> and even 13 (1.73 GHz).

    > Would the board even allow 13x ?

    I honestly don't know. 11x seems to be the maximum that was actually tested and reported by users. 5 binary digits can represent 32 different numbers, and with 0.5 steps and some naive thinking this could amount to a 2.07 GHz range from 0x through 15.5x, or from 5x through 20.5x, or whatever. This is pure speculation, though.

    > I know from reading the thread that a new firmware was in the makes, would
    > it be that hard to get ?

    From what transpired over the years I'd say a definite yes :-)
  • »13.02.14 - 13:03
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  • Just looking around
    Jose
    Posts: 15 from 2014/2/12
    One thing that puzzles me is that some machines were sold as low power servers, including for the small enterprise, what if the enterprise decides to add an add on card with a PCI bridge on it ?
    So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..
  • »14.02.14 - 14:00
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1205 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    Quote:

    So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..


    There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers, but i doubt so. And in any case, you won't have access to it. The Pegasos had its time, you can do nothing but to speculate now.
  • »14.02.14 - 15:29
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    SoundSquare wrote:
    Quote:

    So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..


    There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers, but i doubt so. And in any case, you won't have access to it. The Pegasos had its time, you can do nothing but to speculate now.



    If the cpu cards can be re-created, then the entire design will be known and it could be re-implemented.
    Yes, its dated, and a G4 outperforms it (let alone a G5), but neither of those can run both OS4 and MorphOS.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.14 - 16:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> some machines were sold as low power servers, including for the small enterprise,
    >>> what if the enterprise decides to add an add on card with a PCI bridge on it ?
    >>> So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..

    >> There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers,
    >> but i doubt so. And in any case, you won't have access to it. The Pegasos had its time,
    >> you can do nothing but to speculate now.

    > If the cpu cards can be re-created, then the entire design will be known and it could be
    > re-implemented.

    How would this help with coming by an updated SmartFirmware that remedies the current limitations like the unability to see behind a PCI bridge?

    > a G4 outperforms it

    The Pegasos II *has* a G4 (unless it's a G3 one) :-)
  • »14.02.14 - 19:46
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Andreas, as you probably have guessed by now, that in no way addresses the SmartFirmware issue (which as far as I can tell can not be resolved).
    And you have ignore my meager point (not that it worries me as I have no interest in building more Pegs).

    If I could bankroll something like that, you know full well I'd consider something more up to date.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.02.14 - 19:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2624 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    SoundSquare wrote:
    Quote:

    So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..


    There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers, but i doubt so.


    If so, it was probably the 7447A based 1.4GHz model.

    Quote:

    The Pegasos had its time, you can do nothing but to speculate now.


    Indeed.

    The same goes for PPC desktop in general, I'd say...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.02.14 - 20:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1943 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:


    That could be a real advantage to PegII owners.
    Imagine the performance jump if a 1.7 7448 was used.



    No performace _jump_ ->
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=4498&start=35

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 15.02.2014 - 00:15 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »14.02.14 - 20:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>>> some machines were sold as low power servers, including for the small enterprise,
    >>>>> what if the enterprise decides to add an add on card with a PCI bridge on it ?
    >>>>> So who knows, maybe there are machines out there with an updated firmware..

    >>>> There were probably some at Genesi, and maybe at some of their parnters/customers,
    >>>> but i doubt so. And in any case, you won't have access to it. The Pegasos had its time,
    >>>> you can do nothing but to speculate now.

    >>> If the cpu cards can be re-created, then the entire design will be known and it could be
    >>> re-implemented.

    >> How would this help with coming by an updated SmartFirmware that remedies the
    >> current limitations like the unability to see behind a PCI bridge?

    > that in no way addresses the SmartFirmware issue

    Okay, so I was wrong thinking you must have addressed this because it's what you replied to :-)
  • »14.02.14 - 21:57
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 557 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    The big goal would be a new board, in todays standards and on an affordable price. Board should be specialized for MorphOS. And MorphOS to be specialized for this board. PPC, ARM or x86 does not make any difference to me.

    But it would make sense to me a MorphOS machine for the everydsy tasks. Imagine for example a nice media server box able to play HD, plugged via hdmi on a TV and running MorphOS....

    If a company could get it seriously, joining forces with the team, this would be a new page.
  • »15.02.14 - 02:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Board should be specialized for MorphOS. And MorphOS to be specialized for this board.

    MorphOS should support most (or preferably all) features of such board, yes. But I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS has already drivers for?). A newly developed board produced in very small batches should attract as many niche operating systems as possible in order to increase potential sales and thus minimize the price as much as possible. You might remember this failed attempt from some years back:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

    The initiator went to message boards of several niche operating systems (MorphOS, OS4, Haiku, Linux/PPC...) and tried to raise interest there but failed to gain traction. To me this is a clear indicator that a board "specialized for MorphOS" wouldn't be a feasible project.
  • »15.02.14 - 11:17
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1943 from 2003/6/4
    I also think it'll be very unrealistic to make new board for MorphOS alone that should catch up to modern desktop area domain. There are too many obstacles on the way.

    But I could imagine a simple real low cost board could be interesting. Look to raspberry pi and the many other ARM mini boards. A similar approach with a ppc in it instead of an ARM could be of some interest.
    It'll be not as cheap as those tiny ARM boards, but price is not always the only factor (as long as the price doesn't exceed sanity as it is the case with X1000).

    A few years ago I thought that with the 5125 some interesting stuff could have been done - but that'sprobably too little by todays standards, even for a 50 EUR board. But some low end QorIQ could do the job (but for MorphOS compability one not having an e500v2 core wich limits the choice within the low end domain virtually to teh T1020 and T1022). Keep many I/O lines accessible, QorIQ has quite some network power, and maybe put an FPGA in place (adds cost of course, but offers some benefit over the ultra cheap ARM boards) and you'll have an interesting tinkering device. A little geek toy/dev/router board, quite a bit more than a pi, but less than a normal computer. And geeky OSes.
    If I had some venture capital I'd try that. But I haven't...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »15.02.14 - 20:35
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  • Just looking around
    Jose
    Posts: 15 from 2014/2/12
    Just a curiosity, does the Efika have the same problem with getting access to hardware under bridges ?
  • »15.02.14 - 22:26
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 557 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:


    MorphOS should support most (or preferably all) features of such board, yes. But I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS has already drivers for?). A newly developed board produced in very small batches should attract as many niche operating systems as possible in order to increase potential sales and thus minimize the price as much as possible. You might remember this failed attempt from some years back:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

    The initiator went to message boards of several niche operating systems (MorphOS, OS4, Haiku, Linux/PPC...) and tried to raise interest there but failed to gain traction. To me this is a clear indicator that a board "specialized for MorphOS" wouldn't be a feasible project.



    A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers for... This is a case, yes. But some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list. Hardware that would make this new board useful closer to todays standards, should this board remain on PPC architecture? If this would make the board combined with MorphOS, useful for everyday tasks, ok. Stay PPC. This is a first option.

    Second option? As an alternative, an approaching to existing hardware architecture that MorphOS is not currently supporting, could be a case, if that approaching could drive to the result of a more effective ussage of this hardware by the os. It is a fact that we do not need hundrends of gigabytes and lots of horsepower to be able to have a fast everyday computer, useful to do basic things based on todays stabdards. I paid less than 30 euros for raspberry pi and I am able to view hd videos, listen to music and surf the web fast. I paid less than 80 euros for an android mini PC that also can do the above and it can play flash also. So? Come on, it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed for MorphOS to jump on this train, that is why -in both options-, a serious company is needed, to support a new product and join forces with the team.

    I would pay and donate again and again for a new board. A board would be the first one on my desktop, letting me do everything I need ussing MorphOS and nothing else. No one said no to more operating systems that would expand a user base, but MorphOS should be a priority, like it was on Pegasos.

    [ Edited by CountRaven 17.02.2014 - 21:59 ]
  • »16.02.14 - 03:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > limits the choice within the low end domain virtually to teh T1020 and T1022

    T1020 will probably be more expensive than T1022 but won't add anything useful in terms of desktop purposes.
  • »16.02.14 - 09:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I don't think it'd make sense to have such a board specialized for MorphOS, whatever
    >> that should mean in a technical sense (maybe using only components that MorphOS
    >> has already drivers for?).

    > A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers
    > for... This is a case, yes.

    I was more referring to the on-board components, not components the board could use via expansion slots (and which I don't consider being part of the actual board).

    > some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list.

    A new board for MorphOS (and other niche operating systems) would most likely use some highly integrated SoC, so these new MorphOS drivers would have to include drivers for the SoC's on-chip controllers.

    > it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed
    > for MorphOS to jump on this train

    I don't understand. Aren't "cheap" and "lots of money" mutually exclusive?

    > No one said no to more operating systems that would expand a user base

    In my opinion, a "board specialized for MorphOS" (you didn't answer yet what that means technically) wouldn't have any advantage over a board specialized for no particular OS. What's important is that the on-board components and the controllers integrated therein are publicly documented so driver development for any OS wouldn't have to resort to reverse engineering or similar measures.

    > MorphOS should be a priority, lime it was on Pegasos.

    bplan didn't prioritize MorphOS for the Pegasos. Linux had the same priority and was on the Pegasos even before MorphOS:

    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/first-pegasos-hardware.html
    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/pegasos-meets-morphos.html
  • »16.02.14 - 10:20
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 557 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:

    > A new board should be able to use the components that MorphOS has already drivers
    > for... This is a case, yes.

    I was more referring to the on-board components, not components the board could use via expansion slots (and which I don't consider being part of the actual board).

    > some more modern hardware should be added to this driver list.

    A new board for MorphOS (and other niche operating systems) would most likely use some highly integrated SoC, so these new MorphOS drivers would have to include drivers for the SoC's on-chip.


    Yes on board components should be of course supported. But a list of modern hardware to be used on expantion slots is akways important.


    > it could done and could be done cheap. I know that lots of work and money are needed
    > for MorphOS to jump on this train

    I don't understand. Aren't "cheap" and "lots of money" mutually exclusive?

    Lots of money are needed for a massive production of a board plus financial support for software development. That was my point.

    The final price of the board should be cheap on the other hand. I repeat that such a board should be capable to do everyday tasks on today's standards. I am able to do such stuff on a cheap pi board or on a cheap arm mini pc... Even on a geeky board running a geeky os everyday tasks should be able to be completed smoothly.



    [ Edited by CountRaven 17.02.2014 - 21:46 ]
  • »17.02.14 - 21:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 557 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    And to cut a long story sort, by ussing the word "specialized" I have in mind all those boards like Samantha or Nemo on Amiga X1000 which were made with the main purpose and goal to run AmigaOs 4.x. Something similar for MorphOS? Fast and affortable as I tried to describe on previous posts?



    [ Edited by CountRaven 18.02.2014 - 01:42 ]
  • »18.02.14 - 01:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> In my opinion, a "board specialized for MorphOS" (you didn't answer yet what that
    >> means technically) wouldn't have any advantage over a board specialized for no
    >> particular OS. What's important is that the on-board components and the controllers
    >> integrated therein are publicly documented so driver development for any OS
    >> wouldn't have to resort to reverse engineering or similar measures.

    > by ussing the word "specialized" I have in mind all those boards like Samantha
    > or Nemo on Amiga X1000 which were made with the main purpose and goal to
    > run AmigaOs 4.x.

    So your usage of the term "specialized" has only a marketing-oriented meaning, no technical meaning. Nothing on the Sam4x0 or Nemo boards is "specialized" for OS4 in any technical meaning of the term. They are general purpose computing boards based on Power Architecture SoCs which OS4 needed to be ported to, i.e. the kernel adapted to the specific Power ISA subset implemented by the PPC440(H6) and PA6T cores and drivers written for the various on-board controllers.
    So in technical terms, any general purpose board would qualify as "specialized for MorphOS" as long as it is marketed as such and MorphOS gets ported to it.

    And btw, whether or not the Sam4x0 boards really "were made with the main purpose and goal to run AmigaOs 4.x" is not so clear as you make it sound. After all, ACube's slogan is Power for your embedded ideas. Furthermore:

    "ACube Systems Srl is pleased to announce the official launch of the end-user version of its embedded motherboard Sam440ep [...]."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=news&id=14

    "The Sam460ex is made both for embedded and consumer markets. It can be adapted to different needs."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=5

    "ACube Systems is producing PowerPC motherboards for desktop and industrial markets."
    http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=news&id=116


    Edit: ACube has now made a public statement comparing their Amiga sales to their non-Amiga sales:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&start=861

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 19.09.2014 - 13:44 ]
  • »18.02.14 - 09:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    tolkien
    Posts: 311 from 2013/5/29
    What we need are new machines.
    Computers with warranty and support. I buyed a powermac g5 and a powerbook g4 17 and both of them are died in less than a year and no one want/can repair them.
    Now I have two dead computers which cant afford to repair and two mos licenses to use with nothing.
    Im sad and tired of trying to make them work.
    PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini with MorphOS. Amiga 1200/060 AmigaOS 3.x
  • »18.02.14 - 11:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What we need are new machines. Computers with warranty and support.

    That's what the Sam460 is supposed to be for MorphOS, I guess.

    > I buyed a powermac g5 and a powerbook g4 17 and both of them are died in less
    > than a year and no one want/can repair them. Now I have two dead computers
    > which cant afford to repair and two mos licenses to use with nothing.

    If your MorphOS machine breaks beyond repair you can request the MorphOS Team to transfer its MorphOS license to another machine. Going by reports so far, the MorphOS Team has been very obliging in this regard.
  • »18.02.14 - 11:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 557 from 2007/12/10
    From: Greece
    Quote:


    What we need are new machines.
    Computers with warranty and support


    this.

    And on affortable prices.
  • »18.02.14 - 13:05
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    tolkien
    Posts: 311 from 2013/5/29
    True. All my family knows how I much love Amiga. I'll love to have a SAM and use both Amiga system. I like both of them.
    I have no idea about hardware cost but 1000 euros for a machine that was modern 15 years ago is much for me. I know It is difficult to low costs with this small market.
    Is there a PPC computer that can cost below 500 euros?

    Andreas, I know I can transfer my key to other machine. The problem is that at this moment is imposible for me to buy something.

    Hope to better times.
    PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini with MorphOS. Amiga 1200/060 AmigaOS 3.x
  • »18.02.14 - 18:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    sell the smaller parts of you Apple's on Ebay, the laptop in parts ... they still sell for reasonable price. Sell the empty G5 tower locally to someone who wants to use it for a Hackintosh project .. With a little luck you sell well and you can afford yourself another working G4 or G5 powermac. All you have to to then is to transfer one of your licences to the new machine.

    Think positive, it seems you've got nothing to loose.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »18.02.14 - 18:31
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    tolkien
    Posts: 311 from 2013/5/29
    Thanks Oepabakkes. Yes...I need to think positive. I want at last one mos machine.I Like this OS so much.
    PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini with MorphOS. Amiga 1200/060 AmigaOS 3.x
  • »18.02.14 - 18:47
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