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That very much depends on the disc quality and humidity of your area. Very few discs I've written in the past 15 years still work flawlessly. All the cheap ones are properly dead (rather unsurprisingly) and most of the good quality ones have at least a few read errors. DVDs tend to be worse, for some odd reason, even though they should physically be more robust.

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No biggie as you said yourself, the price always matched the quality... its easy to avoid shit quality discs. I did a *lot* of burning with dozens of different brands so I learned to avoid certain brands.. I remember yellow Budget-labeled dics being the worst.. huge percentage didn't work out of the box and the rest died in 1-2 years IF they worked on common drives in the first place.

As for humidity I can't comment.. our climate changes from -35 to +35 celcius yearly and I have had no problems whatsoever.

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I do believe its closest to multi chipset Amiga thing out of all.
And it is still used in IBM supercomputers, and even revised to DDR2.

PowerXCell 8i
In 2008, IBM announced a revised variant of the Cell called the PowerXCell 8i, which is available in QS22 Blade Servers from IBM. The PowerXCell is manufactured on a 65 nm process, and adds support for up to 32 GB of slotted DDR2 memory, as well as dramatically improving double-precision floating-point performance on the SPEs from a peak of about 12.8 GFLOPS to 102.4 GFLOPS total for eight SPEs, which, coincidently, is the same peak performance as the NEC SX-9 vector processor released around the same time. The IBM Roadrunner supercomputer, the world's fastest during 2008-2009, consists of 12,240 PowerXCell 8i processors, along with 6,562 AMD Opteron processors.[24] The PowerXCell 8i powered super computers also dominated all of the top 6 "greenest" systems in the Green500 list, with highest MFLOPS/Watt ratio supercomputers in the world.[25] Beside the QS22 and supercomputers, the PowerXCell processor is also available as an accelerator on a PCI Express card and is used as the core processor in the QPACE project. Since the PowerXCell 8i removed the RAMBUS memory interface and added significantly larger DDR2 interfaces, and enhanced SPEs the chip layout had to be reworked which resulted in both larger chip die and packaging.

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Well, we anyway use top noch avail CPUs. This seems to be enough for I.
Dongarra and his team demonstrated a 3.2 GHz Cell with 8 SPEs delivering a performance equal to 100 GFLOPS on an average double precision Linpack 4096x4096 matrix.

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I haven`t mentioned IBM here, point is Cell reached a lot of potential.
And as far as I read PWR team was used to bring iPhone ARM CPUs.

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Even being a social scientist and not an IT guru, I we seen able hackers and programmers doing quite a lot of magic with even harder restrains.

I am saying MOS Lite Cell, just basic stuff, but well optimized and having some VRAM or HDD Virtual mem.

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If I got 21st and half century (Duck Dogers Stylee) desktop use is today multimedia oriented more then ever.

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Surely, I am talking about prices for massess.

In short: my idea is to have next cheap MOS PPC computer AND great console - SPS3.
And SAM460ex /AresOne PPC as new board. That would give us outer reach even with younger generation. Its impossible, waste of time etc.

If I had money, well I would design a new Cell based board and pay for Fedora 20, Mint 16XFCE, AmigaOS 4.2 and MorphOSm ports in reversed order

[ Edited by vox 17.01.2014 - 11:32 ]

Why am I reminded of someone asking for hundreds of RJ11 sockets on the NatAmi?

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My 2008 MacBook Pro is really fussy about what blank DVD's it takes. Most brands just spin around for a few seconds then get spat out.

Yet blank CD's it seems to like.

It has been established that the PS3 is not a viable target (to weak CPU, little RAM, NVIDIA-GFX, access restricted to old units not been updated for quite a while etc etc....).

MorphOS making proper use of Cell would require about as much of an rewrite than porting it to x86 or ARM. Only difference is that with x86 and ARM 3rd-party apps could use the full potential with little more than just a recompile.

All this to achieve what ? Run on HW that can't be obtained by even remotly normal means (since PS3 is out) ??

> it is still used in IBM supercomputers

The most recent Top500 list contains only one single Cell-equipped (PowerXCell 8i in this case) system on rank 37, which is not from IBM but from T-Platforms:

http://www.top500.org/system/177421

> and even revised to DDR2. PowerXCell 8i [...]

The PowerXCell 8i stopped being produced a while ago, whereas the Cell BE is still in production today (in 45 nm process node since 2008/2009), primarily for use in the PS3 presumably.

> If I had money, well I would design a new Cell based board

...or rather commission the design, I guess ;-)

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Isn't that the True Amigan TM way?

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Its a Mac. Its not supposed to work with standard discs, it needs 3x more pricey Apple iDiscs

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It's an absolutely terrible machine. The 2005 PowerBook G4 I have is better quality.

And don't get me started on OSX, #%£@&£* POS that it is. It's useful for one thing and one thing only. Logic Pro.

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Renoise ftw!

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Renoise looks great but I've never been able to get the hang of trackers. Lack of patience is my problem.

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Well, since it is PPC32 compatibile, I doubt it that hard. At least Linux community has proven that. 3rd party x86 and ARM apps will be easier to recompile then PPC32? I hope you are right.

As much as I see PS3 can still be obtained even in packaed non used state.
I see it as way advanced arhitecture to PPC Macs, even G5 ones in many aspects,
but as you say ... if its impossible, better leave it alone here.

However, I will still get that cheap and ugly gaming platform and use Linux on it.
Proof of concept.

@Andreas

Yes I would pay to what ... Varisys to do such board with high end cell, high end RadeonHD, High end SCSI and SATA, as many PCI and PCI-E slots, Blue Ray Recorder, all card reader and USB 3.0 and different tune you would sing. Especially if it would have both laptop and touschreen versions and do a perfect multimedia of all kinds

And would run PS,PS2,PS3 and older console as well as DosBox, Hatari, UAE JIT and other emulators lincesed and included with ROMs within OS. Even Sinclair 128, CBM 128 and Sinclair QL emu, for historical reasons.

It would come with MorphOS Cell SE and emulate whatever needed system in sandboxes, and include native Fedora 20 sandbox for Linux apps As well as GIMP, Blender and OpenLibre native MorphOS cell only ports. And some last Sound Blaster onboard.

But once I became a millionaire, count on it!

[ Edited by vox 17.01.2014 - 23:36 ]

>> MorphOS making proper use of Cell would require about as much of an rewrite
>> than porting it to x86 or ARM.

> since it is PPC32 compatibile, I doubt it that hard. At least Linux community
> has proven that.

I doubt that a simple port to the Cell PPE is what Kronos meant by "proper use of Cell". And regarding what the Linux community has proven I quote yourself: "YDL is yet not well optimized".

>> Only difference is that with x86 and ARM 3rd-party apps could use the full
>> potential with little more than just a recompile.

> 3rd party x86 and ARM apps will be easier to recompile then PPC32?

No, that's obviously not what he meant. Hint: the SPEs don't implement any PPC ISA.

> I would pay to [...] Varisys to do such board [...] and different tune you would sing.

Such board would surely remove most of the PS3's limitations discussed in this thread, but the Cell would still be the Cell, and you know my opinion on it in terms of desktop computing.

> And would run [...] PS3

Just because a board has a Cell chip doesn't mean it can run PS3 games. There's more to the PS3 than just the Cell.

> OpenLibre native MorphOS cell only ports.

In case you mean LibreOffice here: Cell-only port would imply SPE usage, but I doubt a word processor can make good use of the SPEs.

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YDL supports it but doesnt have special version. Its just uses general PPC64 Cell part. Linux PPC Kernels since 2.x officially fully supports Cell.

If anyone is more then a sceptic, tools of trade are here
http://cell.scei.co.jp/e_download.html

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Well, that is what he wrote. Cell is PPC ISA compilant (and PPC64 my bad) as general CPU, not slower then G4 I believe at higher clocks. However, using remaining UBER power requires use of other units brings EXTREME performance to any other PPC based CPU and many uses.

http://www.pcinpact.com/archive/28742-Le-Cell-35-fois-plus-rapide-quun-G5-pour-la-.htm

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Yes, you dismiss complex next gen CPU, just because its not fully utilized.
PS3 is limited only in RAM.

If only PPC64 part is used, Cell is slower then G5, faster then G5.
If multimedia parts are used, it blows away any CPU I have heard so far.
Surely, units are not PPC, but hey, there is a way to code streams for it.
http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4844
http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread.php/18448-New-IBM-CELL-benchmark-may-2006-vs-G5

In short: Cell can do much even with weak GPU.
> And would run [...] PS3

Just because a board has a Cell chip doesn't mean it can run PS3 games. There's more to the PS3 than just the Cell.

Not much really, just nVIA GPU. And there is already an emulator, but having at least same CPU could make just other components emulated.
http://playstation3emulator.net/

Surely, PS3 compatibility would be easier to do on same CPU, similar to WINE under Linux with license from Sony if needed.

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Open Office now Libre is more then words processor. VLC, Blender, Lame and others could fly. Also using both Altivec based PPEs and GPU magnificent visual effects could be achieved without slowing down the system. Potential for parallel efects in games and almost real time render is enourmous.

ANYWAY, GIMP, Libre and Blender should be ported to MorphOS, if they arent.

Check how faster we could go with SOFTWARE RENDERING
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39606

For brave ones
https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/44DA30A1555CBB73872570B20057D5C8/$file/CBE_LINUX_ABI_1.2.pdf
http://www.bsc.es/computer-sciences/programming-models/linux-cell/cell-be-sdks/sdk-31
http://llvm.org/devmtg/2013-04/weigand-slides.pdf

And do remember beside Freescale, IBM is our last PPC friend.

If this is not attractive enough, think of Power7
http://llvm.org/devmtg/2013-04/weigand-slides.pdf

As far as I see IBM discountinued the Cell based blades but they used to cost $10 000. I wonder how low such great board would be today. And would special Linux qualify for IBM Linux support programme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BladeCenter
http://www.pcsuperstore.com/products/Q54530-IBM-079338U.html

Overall, Cell is still underestimated and not fully used.
But early 2015, I still expect to show some great games and Linux, even on limited PS3.

Anyway, move away nothing interesting to read here, but how great ideas die.
Even if its still existing and usable tech.

Also, there seems to be technique to use slim PS3 for Linux and ALL PS3 features
https://marcansoft.com/blog/2010/10/asbestos-running-linux-as-gameos/

EDIT: Had to fix quotes YET AGAIN because the poster is unable to properly use them.

[ Edited by ASiegel 19.01.2014 - 19:05 ]

> Linux PPC Kernels since 2.x officially fully supports Cell.

It fully supports the Cell PPE but merely supports the SPEs, as in not going beyond initializing them for apps to use them. The Linux kernel doesn't make real use of the SPEs, I bet.

> that is what he wrote.

He wrote about using "the full potential", which on Cell implies leveraging the SPEs, not just the PPE.

> Cell is PPC ISA compilant (and PPC64 my bad) as general CPU, not slower
> then G4 I believe at higher clocks.

You were already given a link to a Cell PPE vs. G4 performance comparison there:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=9787&start=5

> you dismiss complex next gen CPU

The Cell is yesterday's gen CPU. And looking at Sony/Toshiba/IBM's current stance on Cell they seem to hold the same opinion.

> just because its not fully utilized.

It's not about whether it *is* fully utilized but more about whether it *can be* fully utilized and for which tasks exactly (in a desktop computing context) and whether it would be feasible and worthwhile to undertake this huge programming effort given that unlike AltiVec/VMX, Cell SPE code is neither reusable on other platforms (only Cell has the SPEs) nor future-proof (development of the Cell has been abandoned and Cell production will most likely cease as soon as PS3 production halts).

> PS3 is limited only in RAM.

I think it has been established in this thread that the PS3 would be of limited use for MorphOS in more ways than just the amount of RAM. You will most likely continue to be ignorant of this, though.

> If only PPC64 part is used, Cell is slower then G5

True.

> faster then G5.

False, and also contradicting what you just wrote some words before.

> just nVIA GPU. And there is already an emulator, but having at least same
> CPU could make just other components emulated.
> http://playstation3emulator.net/

Yes, this could work, but you'd need a faster Cell (i.e. higher clocked) than what's in the PS3 to make up for the virtualization overhead.

> using both Altivec based PPEs and GPU magnificent visual effects could be achieved
> without slowing down the system.

This wouldn't be "cell only ports" anymore, which is what you were talking about at this point.

> GIMP, Libre and Blender should be ported to MorphOS, if they arent.

Blender is on MorphOS since 2005. Regarding LibreOffice, there's been an effort last year, but I don't know its status:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9060&forum=3
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9163&forum=9

> beside Freescale, IBM is our last PPC friend.

Outside of the server-oriented POWER series, IBM seems to become unfaithful to PPC:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=490

> If this is not attractive enough

If *what* is not attractive enough?

> think of Power7

POWER7 as a potential platform for MorphOS is certainly very unattractive in terms of both power consumption and price.

@vox
None of the "new" PS3s you can buy today will have OtterOS enabled, and as such they would only leave "cracking" as an option -> bad idea.

Porting from one general purpose CPU (68k,PPC,386++,MIPS,Sparc....) to another is indeed just a matter of a recompile (assuming you have the same tools and APIs on each of them and no unresolved endian issues)

Porting it to some weird and heavly parallel as the SPEs requires a whole different way of doing things (unless your o.k. with only harnessing a tiny fraction of the potential).

If someone in the team really wants to go into "massive parallel execution that can't run generic code" I'd rather have them looking at those Radeon-chips, shaders, OpenCL etc etc than some closedup endoftheroad game-console.

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Seconded.
If we are going to support some kind of parallel computing scheme, GPU computing makes more sense.
We can all use that, rather than just one machine.

The PPE is a 64bit PPC with G4-ish performance (slower on some things, faster on others).
The interesting part of Cell is the SPEs which are DSP like cores. These things are absolute processing monsters.
If you remember when Cell was first announced there was a demo of flying around a mountain. That ran 50x faster than the 2GHz G5s!
It was so fast even the Cell developers were shocked.
If you're not using the SPEs there's really not much point even looking at Cell.

However, while STI don't seem interested in Cell these days there are similar architectures around.

TI do processors with Cortex-A15s combined with a set of DSPs. IIRC Freescale do something similar with PPC cores.

You can also use GPUs of course but they're actually more complex to program than Cell.

> The PPE is a 64bit PPC with G4-ish performance

What is "G4-ish performance"? Keep in mind that the fastest G4 is about 6 times as fast as the slowest G4 (based on clock rate).

> TI do processors with Cortex-A15s combined with a set of DSPs. IIRC Freescale
> do something similar with PPC cores.

Indeed.

Are we still discussing this? Seems like a waste of time since I can't see it happen, ever. There is simply not enough good arguments for such a port.

[ Edited by Yasu 20.01.2014 - 00:10 ]

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There sure is.

There, however, isn't much more to Cell than PS3. It was an experiment. Didn't turn out to be as good idea as it was thought to be. End of story.

What's common with PS3, Sega Saturn and Atari Jaguar?

Yes, they were all quite powerful systems, yet all of them were "somewhat difficult to program for", which killed the earlier systems, but PS3 survived thanks to Sony being "big enough", and leading the way with well programmed exclusive games.

Yes, I know what you are thinking of saying, "Coding for SPE isn't that difficult", right?

But you still HAVE to do it, if you want to support it at all. Code, that will be of absolutely NO use on Xbox360, Wii, Windows systems, mobile phones, well EVERYWHERE else.

Because of that, many games companies simply wrote more cross platform code, and compiled it for all the systems (probaly making it sound WAY easier than it really is). If the PS3 port was too slow, rather lower the details than delay release by extensive PS3-specific optimizations.

Many big companies don't support Cell properly. Why would our small community do, especially considering that major part of the user base probably prefers better suited systems, such as Efika?

Also, considering there's limited amount of SPE's available for use, if they're all reserved, you probably would still want your program to run, so you have to write this alternative "less optimized" code path EVEN FOR CELL (and also for >99% of the userbase with better systems)

And regarding games console manufacturers, if Cell (and PowerPC in general) are so great:
-Why did both Microsoft and Sony switch to a completely different CPU architecture, when "staying PowerPC" would have also offered proper backwards compatibility?
-Why didn't the only major games console manufacturer (Nintendo) still using PowerPC switch to Cell?

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During the years I have followed Amiga forums, I have seen lots of crazy ideas thrown around... You know, "ask Electronic Arts to do AmigaOS4 version of Deluxe Paint" (and be certain it would be Photoshop killer "Because it's Deluxe Paint"), ask nVidia to do graphics drivers for Amiga etc... You know, you have seen it too.

But THIS (getting license from Sony) easily makes the top of the crazy ideas list!

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What are you talking about? I haven't seen any.

> vox wrote:
> There's more to the PS3 than just the Cell.

Actually, it's me who wrote this. Vox just quoted it.

> considering there's limited amount of SPE's available for use, if they're all reserved,
> you probably would still want your program to run

Wouldn't there be some kind of multitasking on the SPEs, managed by the PPE?

> Why didn't [...] Nintendo [...] switch to Cell?

"Why a PPC750? Well, first of all, the Espresso has to be fully compatible with the Broadway to run Wii software. Several people have pointed out that many PowerPC cores are essentially fully backwards compatible for user software. However, Wii games run on the bare metal, without any OS. This means that the CPU needs to be 100% compatible at the system/OS level too, down to the smallest detail of the highly model-specific special-purpose registers. Wii software regularly messes with registers such as HID0-HID4, which are Hardware-Implementation Dependent registers. Additionally, the PPC750 line is the only range of PowerPC processors that implement Paired Singles, an (outdated) SIMD implementation that was introduced with the Gekko on the GameCube and which is not compatible with modern PowerPC SIMD, such as AltiVec. These processors also implement other GameCube/Wii-specific features, such as the Write-Gather Pipe (used to send commands to the GX) and the locked L1 cache and DMA that were discussed in the talk. On top of that, because the Espresso runs at the clock rate of the Wii in vWii mode (and no faster), instruction timings must be identical (or possibly better) in all cases, lest some Wii games run slower on vWii mode than on a real Wii."
http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2014/console-hacking-2013-omake.html

> ask nVidia to do graphics drivers for Amiga [...]. But THIS (getting license from Sony)
> easily makes the top of the crazy ideas list!

Well, according to Bill McEwen, Amiga Inc. had a "co-marketing and development Agreement with nvidia" and Sony wanted "to have Amiga [referring to OS4 here] available on" the PS3 ;-)

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/35/4.pdf (page 7)

But then we all know Bill McEwen is chronically full of shit.