MorphOS for PowerMAC G4 support coming
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2706 from 2003/2/24
    @ Kronos

    Yes, indeed there would be many, many obstacles and challenges in a x86 migration.

    There are probably many ways to tackle them too. The easiest way would be to cut the cord to the past entirely, and start all over on an entirely clean slate. But that would hardly be popular...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »02.01.10 - 15:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2706 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the MorphOS team has never showed any kind of interest for this kind of hardware, neither
    > by their words, nor by their action. Everything they have said, everything they have done,
    > and *not* done (in regards to OS development, UI development, application development,
    > etc) proclaims that MorphOS is a desktop OS for a limited and certain kind of computer
    > enthusiasts in Amiga's legacy, nothing more, nothing less.

    There have been words:

    ...and following action:


    All that, as well as MorphOS for Efika, was Genesi initiated efforts towards this:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5638&forum=2&start=2

    But it takes more than simple port to live and prosper on an ARM device, that was my point. Only in the UI departments there are different requirements for a palmtop, a tablet, a TV or STB. Touch screen ? la smartphones? Battery and energy management for portable devices? And there needs lots of apps as well! PVR software, DTV software, teletext software, etc for TV and STB? Bluetooth and Wifi support? The list could be made quite long, depending on what you want to achieve, and on what kind of device.

    But no work at all has been done in this direction AFAIK. Instead we have seen a lot of work been put into making the traditional desktop environment "Ambient" a lot better, the traditional desktop GUI "MUI" has had great improvements, etc. All work, all improvements and all additions to MorphOS has been geared towards the traditional desktop. And I didn't say that was a bad thing. This is what the current users wants, and what the developers wants to do. And MorphOS is a proclaimed hobby desktop OS, made for fun, to have fun with. So my guess is that it's going to be the desktop CPU (x86) rather than ARM, if/when there will be an architecture migration. That was my point.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »02.01.10 - 16:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2027 from 2003/6/4
    @ Kronos
    A few weeks ago I thought about how to do a switch to x86 and thought of this: https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6570&forum=3#66869

    In essence two boxes: One Box for legacy (i.e. in big endian mode (ppc emulated or just flipped x86 code) and one Box, very similar to ABox (probably a bit enhanced when breaking backward compability anyway) in little endian mode.
    Legacy apps would get a slight speed penalty due to flipping endianness and/or 68k/ppc emualation, but new compiles for x86 little endian would get the full speed. Of couse some shared clipboard and some interoperability between the two boxes must be warranted, but I guess the new x86 box could take care about those things.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »02.01.10 - 18:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11554 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > All that [...] was Genesi initiated efforts towards this:

    I'm not sure that laire's January 2005 words regarding embedded had that much to do with Genesi. Like you quoted him back then:

    "I simply decided to port morphos to some embedded platform and see what develops out of this"

    At least that doesn't sound like a concerted effort between him and Genesi.
    And I'm also not sure that Genesi already had something like the LimePCs in mind in January 2005. They started their advanced SoC (which developed into the MPC512x in 2007) oriented blog postings not before 2006.
    In conclusion, I think you see an "initiated effort" where there was no such back then yet, just laire's very own idea to make something commercially viable out of MorphOS by going embedded.

    > And there needs lots of apps as well! PVR software, DTV software, teletext
    > software, etc for TV and STB? [...] But no work at all has been done in this direction AFAIK.

    Maybe that was supposed to be a start (you even suspected it back then):

    http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=1225&si=1

    "I guess it's MorphOS software for watching DVB-S broadcasts (and DVB-C, DVB-T with additional development). Could be used for a MorphOS based STB or similar device for instance?"
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4412&forum=9#41089

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4605&forum=9
  • »02.01.10 - 18:34
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  • Caterpillar
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    BurnTwice
    Posts: 38 from 2009/10/27
    @ Granny

    Yes, good points you mentioned in your recent posts.
    It is obvious that the Mac support ist an intermediate solution, since Apple left the PPC building.
    Therefore, I am curious what the new hardware from Hyperion/Aena will be.... :-?
    So, I also would like to know about the plans for the MophOS future and see some invigorating visions...

    @ ASiegel

    Well, the pricing thing...

    True, there are companies selling software quite expensive and which don?t give any discounts. But isn?t it a bit, well, maybe arrogant to compare a niche OS like MorphOS with products of BIG companies like Quark, SAS, Adobe and others which play a big role in the industry?
    Here also, no insult intended! But we should get real on this point.
    And we see, that pricing and lincencing scheme are a big topic in the fora. So maybe this "whining" should not be ignored for the future benefit of the platform.


    One thing I miss in almost all recent posts on MorphOS is the self consciousness and the proudness to have a great OS which in many details is ahead of the competitors. So there is a potential to become something much bigger. But I doubt that without getting more professional and without some more flexibility and strategic partners there can be much more growth atm.


    [ Edited by BurnTwice on 2010/1/3 3:04 ]
  • »03.01.10 - 01:58
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    Quote:


    One thing I miss in almost all recent posts on MorphOS is the self consciousness and the proudness to have a great OS which in many details is ahead of the competitors. So there is a potential to become something much bigger. But I doubt that without getting more professional there can be much growth atm.



    Just consider people here (including developers and users) might be more realistic about the abilities and weaknesses of an amiga-like OS.
    I find it a bit naive to be over-optimistic or proud about it.


    [ Edited by Fab on 2010/1/3 2:08 ]
  • »03.01.10 - 02:06
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    BurnTwice
    Posts: 38 from 2009/10/27
    @ Fab
    Well, it?s only my opinion.
    But what is the driver then to do all this?
    If it?s only a fun thing without any perspective, well... we again end up in the pricing discussion. ;-)

    A lot of things started small and became something big, but not without faith!
    C= are dead already for a lot of years and still there are 3 (!!!) amigoid systems around. There must be something in the concept that BeOS, TOS etc. don?t have.
    So why being so modest?

    Your software is great work which certainly raises the usability of MorphOS and earns a lot of respect. So I think that you also see some potential, since you offer time and sweat for that OS... Well, I assume (hope) so... ;-)
  • »03.01.10 - 02:27
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    @BurnTwice

    I was just giving my objective view (which I think is realistic) of the situation, which would likely be the one from anyone not familiar with amiga/morphos history.
    I think it's quite difficult to reach an unprepared audience, given the limitations (limited hardware support, lack of software, compatibility legacy that adds some constraints, ...) . And I don't think it's a wise move to hype things blindly to the "outside world". It could badly backfire when potential clients realize the product doesn't satisfy their expectations. But hey, i'm not a commercial nor a public relation guy, after all. Maybe i'm just very wrong. Maybe I'm not the Most Ambitious Person either. :)

    I can't comment for everyone, but in my case, the motivation to develop for MorphOS is mostly to bring or enhance software I need/use, because it's my favorite system. And I certainly hope that all MorphOS efforts are appreciated and useful to other users too. :)

    Regarding the pricing aspect, it was discussed a lot, and maybe it's not perfect when you have several machines, but there are not many practical alternatives either.


    [ Edited by Fab on 2010/1/3 4:37 ]
  • »03.01.10 - 04:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Dreamcast270mhz
    Posts: 152 from 2009/12/9
    From: Virginia,USA
    While I agree x86 is a good platform for MorphOS on paper, what I have learned about using PPC hardware over x86, I'm willing to pay more, for less. Here is why:

    X86 was and continues to be designed as a Brute force model Setup like this:
    Memory-CPU
    Video Memory-GPU

    PPC and others use a more efficient approach:
    Memory-CPU-GPU

    Where the CPU is much more involved in the other goings on, it allows for a more efficient integration.

    Furthermore, PPC CPU sales are not as fit-to-mold type deal as x86, they are far better quality processors.

    The reason I would withdraw from the MorphOS scene and go to red would be that switching to X86 would force me to buy the horrible x86 HW I tried to escape. I'm hoping, by some sheer luck, the A1 X1k
    will triumph in the market and secure itself a successful position. I hope this new board also has a powerful CPU, like the Titan, although i'm not sure if that complies to PowerISA 2.04.

    Look at the PPC 601, iirc, it offered 2 times faster clock for clock and instruction set execution, and most PPC chips are based on the designs of it, the G5 quad CPU PowerMac even holds its own against the most powerful stock HW available.

    I know, that someday the Intel domination of the market will disappear, and i will close my ears to your further predictions on the HW switch because it will never result in success.

    I need to blow off some steam.....

    :-x
    My Macs:
    Powerbook G4 ALU 1.5GHZ 15" 1.5GB OSX.5.8
    Powermac G4 MDD 1.5GHZ OSX.5.8 MOS2.7

    Want a part for a Mac? Let me know, I'll see what I can do.

    Amithlon is amazing, questions and help I can provide.
  • »09.01.10 - 05:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11554 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Titan, although i'm not sure if that complies to PowerISA 2.04.

    It does.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Architecture#Power_ISA_v.2.04
  • »09.01.10 - 14:35
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1319 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ BurnTwice

    Quote:

    True, there are companies selling software quite expensive and which don?t give any discounts. But isn?t it a bit, well, maybe arrogant to compare a niche OS like MorphOS with products of BIG companies like Quark, SAS, Adobe and others which play a big role in the industry? Here also, no insult intended!


    You see, I did not reference any of these large companies you listed. I mentioned that *many* successful companies do not offer discounts to private consumers. You do not have to be 'large' to be successful. There are many smaller companies who offer no multi-license discounts for their 'expensive' niche software.

    So, I really don't see how I was being arrogant in what I wrote. What I personally find arrogant is when people with either zero or rather superficial knowledge about marketing matters accuse others of being either ignorant or incompetent if they disagree with the need to offer said discounts. (This is not specifically targetted at you, just a reference to why I replied in this thread in the first place.)
  • »10.01.10 - 11:06
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1319 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ takemehomegrandma

    Quote:

    Normally, companies submits to the consumers collective perception of a fair price for a product of certain specifications, and either adapts their prices according to their offered product specifications, or they adapt their products to fit the price.


    ??? That statement is wrong, or an uber-simplified half-truth at best. Well, it depends on how you define "normally", I admit. There are countless scenarios when this is not true at all either way.

    Quote:

    You, on the other hand, obviously wants to change/"educate" an entire population into perceiving a fixed price for a product is fair, instead of changing either the price or the product into becoming fair according to consumers perception?


    There is no "fair price" that is somehow "natural" or "transmitted by a higher power in to the collective consciousness of mankind". Period.

    Second of all, we are talking about a niche community here, not an entire population. (Feel free to read up on market segmentation. Trying to appeal to the wants and needs of an entire society is usually considered a fool's errant nowadays.)

    Quote:

    Software gets "expensive" much quicker than hardware.


    In this context, I find that to be a very broad, inprecise statement.

    Sure, if you look at software that can be either legally or illegally installed on multiple machines, an end user may not be overly motivated to buy a second license. Unlike hardware, you can 'clone' a number of software titles at little or no cost and with little nor work involved.

    But, if you specifically look at software that is either dongled or otherwise hard to transfer and use on multiple machines, which includes computers as well as mobile devices such as phones, things look a whole lot different.

    For example, I know many local businesses use dongled niche software that is essential to their daily operations. For them, buying an extra software license (and dongle) for their existing machines increases their work productivity, thus income, far more than buying yet another computer.

    Quote:

    Maybe you can "educate" *some chosen individuals*


    The education of a target group is commonly called 'advertizing' and happens to be a trillion dollar business sector...

    Quote:

    That said - You set whatever price you want. Of Course you do!


    Just for the record, I personally appear to have literally zero influence on the price. There is nothing I can do or say to change it.
  • »10.01.10 - 12:17
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  • c64
  • Just looking around
    c64
    Posts: 1 from 2010/1/19
    Hi,

    I have an old B&W mac G3 with a Sonnet Encore/ZIF G4(7455?) 1.0 GHz.
    This platform will be supported by Mos? (I hope so!)
    If not, a mac mini G4 is a good choice or is planned a support for faster G4(5) macs?

    Thanks!
    Bye.
  • »20.01.10 - 16:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2027 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    c64 wrote:
    Hi,

    I have an old B&W mac G3 with a Sonnet Encore/ZIF G4(7455?) 1.0 GHz.
    This platform will be supported by Mos? (I hope so!)
    If not, a mac mini G4 is a good choice or is planned a support for faster G4(5) macs?

    Thanks!
    Bye.


    I seriously doubt your B&W Mac will get support in a foreseebale future.

    Currently supported:Mac mini G4, Pegasos 1 & 2, Efika 5200B.
    Supported in the next release: Power Mac G4 (not all models, see initial post of this thread and Jacadaps added a rule of thumb that maschines above 1 GHz will do)
    Not confirmed but probably in the next release as well: Some G4 eMacs.
    Later on probably some PowerBooks.

    The Mac mini is a nice maschine and there aren't too many G4 maschines out there which are substancially faster. The Power Mac G4 can have a faster cpu, but no faster RAM, hence probably not much faster in overall performance (unless dual cpu boards will get used somehow). The 1.67 GHz Powerbook will probably be the fastest maschine. But I guess we will see support for that rather in the end of this year than in spring or summer.
    And I wouldn't count on G5 - if it will get supported at all, it will be not too soon...

    [ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/1/20 19:28 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »20.01.10 - 17:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    kickstart
    Posts: 227 from 2009/4/28
    From: Land of Santa
    Its something wrong for me with powermacs, are nice machines for morphos, are expandable towers but if want to change your gfx card need a mac compatible one, more expensive and difficult to find for example.
  • »20.01.10 - 18:22
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    ddewbofh
    Posts: 25 from 2009/12/4
    From: Sweden
    Flashing a standard PC card to a Mac version isnt hard at all. You just need to track down a Mac BIOS, boot an x86 into DOS and flash with the new ROM. Ive done it on multiple machines ranging from an old G3 all the way up to dual G5s. The Apple BTO options as well as 3rd-party caqrds are way overpriced.

    (I know thers a lack of apostrophes, this keyboard cant do them for some reason. Still looking into it. :) )
  • »20.01.10 - 22:39
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    kickstart
    Posts: 227 from 2009/4/28
    From: Land of Santa
    @ddewbofh

    Are you sure that all gfx cards are flasheable? i have a powermac G4@400mhz (not enough for mos i think) but the bad point is on the ati rage.
  • »21.01.10 - 01:22
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  • Caterpillar
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    ddewbofh
    Posts: 25 from 2009/12/4
    From: Sweden
    I'm assuming that the card has to have a mac version, but other than that it should work fine. I've only done it on AGP-cards though so I'm not sure of how it works with PCI-cards.
  • »21.01.10 - 01:58
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Painkiller
    Posts: 128 from 2007/11/19
    From: Nokia, Funland
    Any change of seeing iBook G4 1.33GHz supported? They have a mobility radeon 9500 or was it 9550 anyways it would be nice to have a laptop supported.
  • »19.02.10 - 06:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11554 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They have a mobility radeon 9500 or was it 9550

    Depending on model it's 9200 or 9550.

    http://support.apple.com/kb/SP43
    http://support.apple.com/kb/SP68
  • »19.02.10 - 08:34
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Dreamcast270mhz
    Posts: 152 from 2009/12/9
    From: Virginia,USA
    I got my MDD up and running today, running Tiger 11. I added USB 2.0 ports and here are my current specs:

    Power Mac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz
    4x FW400
    2x USB 1.1
    6x USB 2.0 (PCI card and monitor hub)
    ATi Radeon 9000 AGP
    360w AcBel revB PSU
    512mb ram


    I'm gonna OC it to 1.5 or 1.4, its got an aluminum heatsink which barely gets hot. Mine also runs VERY quiet. One warning, there are a lot of these on eBay for sale without a PSU. Unless you want to try an ATX mod, these PSUs cost over $100 USD. I was lucky, my father works with ecyclers.
    My Macs:
    Powerbook G4 ALU 1.5GHZ 15" 1.5GB OSX.5.8
    Powermac G4 MDD 1.5GHZ OSX.5.8 MOS2.7

    Want a part for a Mac? Let me know, I'll see what I can do.

    Amithlon is amazing, questions and help I can provide.
  • »20.02.10 - 16:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2790 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:


    kickstart wrote:
    @ddewbofh

    Are you sure that all gfx cards are flasheable? i have a powermac G4@400mhz (not enough for mos i think) but the bad point is on the ati rage.




    400MHz G4 would be fast enough, but that model may not be supported, as the team only has enough resources to support a limited number of G4 PowerMacs and they have been working on the later models first.

    After all, the Efika is only 400MHz G2 equivalent and it runs MorphOS very well.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »21.02.10 - 06:42
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    DiskDoctor
    Posts: 306 from 2009/4/17
    From: Rzeszow, place...
    Quote:


    Zylesea wrote:

    Currently supported:Mac mini G4, Pegasos 1 & 2, Efika 5200B.
    Supported in the next release: Power Mac G4 (not all models, see initial post of this thread and Jacadaps added a rule of thumb that maschines above 1 GHz will do)
    Not confirmed but probably in the next release as well: Some G4 eMacs.
    Later on probably some PowerBooks.



    That is why I asked lately for some specs sheet, I ask another time.

    My point is to create a chart showing the specs supported, MacMini vs. PowerMac, plus the expected pricing. It is for the users that are now wondering whether get a mini or wait for a Power Mac.

    The fact that all G4 minis are supported is very convenient but considering that only some Powermac G4 specs are to be supported, I suppose copy'n'pasting respective wikipedia specs chart will be very helpful (also serving as specs and pricing reference - for all supported Apple HW).

    My personal 2 cents is that this upcoming release is a fantastic chance for all Amiga fans, also having Classic amigas to try MorphOS. Referring to what amigadave said at the very beginning, any Amiga fan having suitable PowerMac is going to be ought to try MorphOS soon :-)
    Was: Mac Mini PPC running MorphOS 2.4
    Now: Amiga Forever 2010 with AmiKit and AmigaSYS
    Not used: Icaros Desktop 1.2 (reason: no wifi)
    Planned soon: an OS4 system
    Shortly then: a MOS notebook (wifi is a must-have)
  • »21.02.10 - 11:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11554 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 400MHz G4 [...] model may not be supported, as the team only has enough
    > resources to support a limited number of G4 PowerMacs and they have been
    > working on the later models first.

    If this 400 MHz PowerMac G4 is a "Sawtooth" model (aka "AGP Graphics") it may be supported. And even without 3rd party accelerator, I guess.
    I don't know if support for "Sawtooth" would include support for "Gigabit Ethernet" model as well, though.

    Refer to:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6910&forum=11#71006 (second link therein)
  • »21.02.10 - 12:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Dreamcast270mhz
    Posts: 152 from 2009/12/9
    From: Virginia,USA
    Quote:


    Pega-1 wrote:
    Well, let's see where we are at when MorphOS for PowerMac is actually released :)
    Currently it doesn't really look like it will be released with next MorphOS 2.x update. It is progressing very slowly and actually holds up releasing some interesting bug fixes.
    It has not finally been decided yet but PowerMac support probably won't make it into the next update, namely 2.5.
    IMHO Ralph was way too optimistic announcing it for the next update and actually I was surprised by that early announcement as well, really.




    Considering this, I have my hopes shaken a bit that we won't have Powermac G4 in 2.5. I need to know for certain if this whole announcement is now null & void.


    @Andreas
    The Gigabit model is almost totally identical to the sawtooth, the Quicksilver is basically an extension of the Sawtooth, nothing more, I think the "Yikes!" model with PCI graphics will be the odd one out, of course, I may be wrong.

    @thread
    I was thinking, where I am PowerMac G4s are VERY cheap. I'm thinking about picking up a few Quicksilvers and refurbishing them to prepare for MOS 2.5.
    My Macs:
    Powerbook G4 ALU 1.5GHZ 15" 1.5GB OSX.5.8
    Powermac G4 MDD 1.5GHZ OSX.5.8 MOS2.7

    Want a part for a Mac? Let me know, I'll see what I can do.

    Amithlon is amazing, questions and help I can provide.
  • »05.03.10 - 01:13
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