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    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
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    @Raf_MegaByte

    See my previous post.
  • »20.04.09 - 16:27
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:19 ]
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  • »22.04.09 - 03:57
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @ ironfist

    Yeah, I read the documents BBRV talks about in their latest blog:

    http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2009/06/warningto-all-interested-parties.html

    Very interesting...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.06.09 - 19:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:12 ]
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  • »23.06.09 - 01:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Velcro_SP wrote:

    Quote:

    Just a little update in the whole CherryPal scam..


    Very happy with mine


    So, at least one amigan has a Cherypal? I didn't notice about it, and would find very valuable your opinions, if you haven't posted them already. Please tell us, is it as bad as some people say?
    Haev you started hacking it yet? Is it remotely possible?
  • »23.06.09 - 10:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 28.05.2011 - 06:29 ]
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  • »23.06.09 - 13:45
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @Velcro_SP

    OK, you don't like what I say, but am I wrong?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »23.06.09 - 15:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 27.04.2011 - 06:58 ]
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  • »23.06.09 - 22:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Velcro, I agree with all your comments here. Even those "against" takemehomegrandma. Count me also in that category, as I usually do the same praising towards Genesi from time to time. Somehow, I feel in debt with them, perhaps some more people here feel like that (but wouldn't admit it in public).

    I've red your blog entry about the Cherrypal ("LimePC" from now), and recall doing so in the past. Sorry for fooling myself, as I obviously red (and commented!) your MorphZone thread also, but had forgotten about it.

    Your idea of "picking up LimePC" makes sense, at least for an ignorant like me. but it's hard to tell how difficult it would be. Being such a little compuiter, it should be VERY easy to do, or it wouldn't be viable, we're talking low cost computing.

    In the past, I thought of an initiative consisting in buying a bunch of LimePCs and give them to the MorphOS Team, for them to check the possibility of a port. Hell, they are cheap! It's not like buying a bunch of PowerMacs G5! (yeah, right, as I'm dumb and can't do it myself, I pass that task to tme Team, as if they weren't busy enough).

    The MacMini port is a good thing. Mostly because it's the ONLY possible thing. Doh.

    But it's a pity the LimePC can't enjoy a decent operating system (and community!). Because LimePC and MorphOS deserve each other. Knowing that the original plan was about MorphOS only hurts more.

    So, if we had the guarantee (yeah, right) that freescale would be manufacturing the MPC5121e for five more years, and THTF would do so with the motherboard... But those are, precisely, two companies known for NOT delivering on their announcements. Anyone here in China willing to reach THTF's offices for an agrement over LimePC? Wait, Genesi did so, and were screwed...

    It's just a shame that the LimePC, indeed, does exist, and that "being born" for MorphOS, we can't do anything about it.

    Or "yes we can" (TM)?
  • »24.06.09 - 08:01
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @Velcro_SP

    It was not a comment to a single blog post, it was an aggregated conclusion based on *all* of what has been said, and *all* observations I have made during the last year. And with "dead" I didn't mean that your device didn't power up anymore. That's the same tiresome "logic" that rigid die hard Amigans use when they say "The Amiga isn't dead, my LED is still lit" when you say it's "dead" in the sense that the platform has no clear commercial purpose, no focus, no role to play in a greater scheme, and has been lagging behind in most areas every year for a decade and a half (at least if you consider it to be what most "amigans" consider it to be - a full blown desktop OS that is here to rule the world and kick Windows out of the picture).

    "It's dead for all purposes of interest to us", i.e. if the chip is still sold (of which I am sure it is, though I doubt the platform will be further developed, at least not in a way that would be remotely interesting to *us*), then you will find it hidden in cars etc, not in the consumer electronic devices and netbooks you are looking for.

    The similarity with MAI/Articia and AmigaOne is striking IMHO. Both chips had a great deal of bugs and came in lots of new revisions (to the actual market!) before the problems started to get ironed out. Yet the lack of a working cache coherency functionality came as a total surprise to the third party developers. Some (Genesi and most other) consider this to be a deal breaker and jumped ship to another chip, while some few (Eyetech and Cherrypal) pushed ahead, they made a few sales before they went belly up, and left some users that happily testify online that "I have never had any problems with my AmigaOne/Cherrypal whatsoever" (which probably is totally true but not really relevant). Yet the Articia had at least two follow up models on the road map, and the MobileGT platform had the 5123, 5125, and the 5130 in the pipe line. I bet that there still is a few people over at amigans.net that still are waiting for the Articia P (it will never come), and explains the outage of the MAI website as some simple site maintenance. The 5123 was *originally* supposed to be here at Q1 2008 (Genesi was supposed to handle the development of a MPC5123 system reference design), and the 5125/5130 in Q2 2009. According to posts by BBRV, there has been some vast reorganization at Freescale though, a complete refocus. At one point in time, Genesi had the hopes of the 5121e/5123 to be suitable for netbook like devices, but it turned out it wasn't (it's completely focused on embedded markets). Neither the 5125 nor the 5130 will even have an MBX or AXE core (if they ever get here), so they are out of the picture as well. Conclusion: The 5121e/5123 won't suffice, and the follow up chips won't correct this. *THIS* is what I mean with "dead"; I'm *not* disputing that the LED on your Cherrypal is stil lit, because I'm sure it is. But the fact is that Freescale's consumer focus is around the i.Mx family now (ARM). And this is where Genesi is as well.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.09 - 09:25
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @jcmarcos

    Quote:

    Your idea of "picking up LimePC" makes sense, at least for an ignorant like me. but it's hard to tell how difficult it would be. Being such a little compuiter, it should be VERY easy to do, or it wouldn't be viable, we're talking low cost computing.


    No. It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Genesi developed the LimePC/Cherrypal, and they have already left it. For this:

    3630491475_0301f70970.jpg

    This chip has at least twice as good performance and much better specifications than the 5121e. It has lots of support controllers and accelerators. It has a SIMD unit (think Altivec). And it has momentum. It can do the things you want a netbook to do, the 5121e is *much* more limited in its specs and performance.

    YouTube Video


    Quote:

    In the past, I thought of an initiative consisting in buying a bunch of LimePCs and give them to the MorphOS Team, for them to check the possibility of a port. Hell, they are cheap!


    I'll quote a reply that BBRV already made to Velcro_SP in an old thread:

    "We tried to explain a number of times here and on PowerDeveloper why the 5121e is a waste of time for use with an OS like MorphOS. Please don't waste you time and money on this proposed bounty. If a MorphOS-Team developer wants one of these systems we would be happy to send one to them. This is not the issue."

    "Porting MorphOS to the 5121e is a waste of time. It is too bad things worked out like they did. We had high hopes for this chip."
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.09 - 09:47
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 27.04.2011 - 06:56 ]
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  • »24.06.09 - 11:31
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2054 from 2003/6/4
    TMHG:

    Well, this ARM chip may be nice, and I am prett ysure it will power some nice netboks, but what does this chip has to do with MorphOS?
    You know even this non super-duper 5121 chip has one significant serious adantage over any ARM, x86, MIPS and the likes. It is a PowerPC. And that is - at least up to now - the only architecture supported by MorphOS.

    After the Mini release it will be time to make a new decision which way to proseed. But b4 that release isn't out and information about acceptance, demand, or the lack of it, is gained all discussion about future plans is IMHO rather void.
    --
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    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.06.09 - 14:06
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @Velcro_SP wrote:

    Quote:

    And I love it that you copy-paste BBRV's advice on what hardware is a "waste of time" for MorphOS. I usually look to the MorphOS coders for opinion on that.


    I think that if you really ask them, you would get a similar response.

    Quote:

    Gee, I wonder if BBRV thinks the latest ARM thing Genesi wants to do is a "productive use of time" for MorphOS?


    Genesi hasn't asked for a MorphOS port to ARM (LINK), but they would support it if the will from the MorphOS team was there. But I think they are perfectly aware of the time and effort required to accomplish something like that. It took the MorphOS team almost 2 years to deliver MorphOS for the Efika. Two years is a man age in computer years, complete technology shifts can happen in that much time, and the whole Efika/LimePC window was closed before MorphOS was even ready. And that was for a PPC platform, *not* a migration to a different architecture.

    Quote:

    If you want to say that, in your opinion, the CherryPal hardware would be a poor strategic direction for A) MorphOS, or B) Genesi, then please say it that way instead of saying such and such is "dead" and "f*cked up" when you really don't know at all.


    I'm sure the 5121e is an excellent chip, when used for its purpose. For MorphOS though, the 5121e is broken by design. It lacks HW cache coherency. This turned out to be a design move (Click Here and read the post from henri234), and I agree that it makes sense for the context in which the chip is supposed to be used, i.e. embedded applications only. Genesi though, had counted on cache coherency being there. The whole point with the Efika->5121e program, and the whole idea with LimePC/Cherrypal/Whatever, relied on that.

    Look Velcro, I didn't mean to take away the fun for you to have a Cherrypal thing. I have been toying with the thought of getting one myself, as some kind of collectors item if for no other reasons. Lots of AmigaOne owners are perfectly happy with their machines as well. Happiness is a good thing. But when you suggest that Genesi should continue with the 5121e design instead of the ARM design that not only is superior in every single way of measurement, and also cheaper, then it just becomes ridiculous. As for the MorphOS team - I'm sure they have their hands full to achieve the Mac Mini PPC port, and I'm sure *it will* happen. Any year now. The 5121e is a waste of time.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.09 - 14:13
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Zylesea wrote:
    TMHG:

    Well, this ARM chip may be nice, and I am prett ysure it will power some nice netboks, but what does this chip has to do with MorphOS?


    Nothing.

    Nothing at all.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.09 - 14:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Surprising as it may seem (or not), I do agree both with takemehomegrandma and Velcro_SP: The MPC5121e is a nice clever chip, but not commercially viable. So, even if it would be a perfect match for MorphOS, it won't happen.
    I'd also like to say that cache coherency is not a mandatory feature for an operating system to work. You just have to rewrite every driver that needs hardware cache coherency. Ouch.
    Genesui suffered from communication problems with freescale that led to the shocking discovery that the MPC5121e wasn't meant at all to be compatible with the MPC5200B. That's enough for a company to pull the plug in development.
  • »24.06.09 - 16:00
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1371 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ jcmarcos

    Quote:

    Because LimePC and MorphOS deserve each other.


    I realize that this was not your intention but I find this statement to be bordering on an insult considering the shady people involved on the LimePC side and the technical limitations of the hardware (graphics performance / supported screen resolutions, especially).


    Quote:

    Knowing that the original plan was about MorphOS only hurts more.


    As far as the end user experience goes, I doubt that existing MorphOS fans would have enjoyed LimeOS a lot even if it had been based on key MorphOS technologies. (The difference between BeOS and BeIA is probably a good point of reference.)
  • »24.06.09 - 17:22
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:05 ]
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  • »25.06.09 - 01:00
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 27.04.2011 - 06:54 ]
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  • »25.06.09 - 01:35
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Velcro, I understand that you're very happy with your Cherrypal, and I wish you lots of fun with it...

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.06.09 - 08:00
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:

    Quote:

    jcmarcos wrote:

    Because LimePC and MorphOS deserve each other.


    I realize that this was not your intention but I find this statement to be bordering on an insult


    Now that's an energic answer! By the way, I very much appreciate a MorphOS Team member talking about this, even when they must be quite fed up with the Cherrypal fiasco. And, yet again, some of us still whine about this...

    Quote:

    considering the shady people involved on the LimePC side


    That's a very important point: According to Genesi, LimePC management people (Tsinghua Tonfang, THTF) are crooks. No matter how good their product is, you can't do business with people like this. That just puts an abrupt end to the story. So forget about the chinese, and go copy ourselves freescale's development board (easy, yeah).
    The problem is that technical matters can be considered separate from commercial matters (but, in the real world, doing so is suicidal). This alows for debates like this that never end. Don't ya love it?

    Quote:

    and the technical


    ...but now we get technical!

    Quote:

    limitations of the hardware (graphics performance / supported screen resolutions, especially).


    Indeed, the MPC5121e is limited. But you already ported MorphOS to the even weaker MPC5200B in the Efika, and quite an interesting toy resulted. Its XGI video option was also very low end.
    It took very long, and also Genesi paid for this development. Perhaps we "LimePC wankers" shoud shut up, raise some serious money and talk business to you in order to get same thing for "our" LimePC.
    The MPC5121e is (was?) s a CPU for low end netbooks, PDAs, and other toys. But we've heard a lot of times (so happily accepted) that "just enough computing" motto from Genesi. I really think the chip is good for many low end uses. It even manages to move that boring Linux distro in the Cherrypal. And no doubt that lack of cache coherency excuse is for sissies: The MorphOS Team can, of course, do anything in their own code for it to run on an HP calculator, if required.
    For me, it's much worse that there was no "generally available" driver for the PowerVR unit. But that's all history now.

    Quote:

    As far as the end user experience goes, I doubt that existing MorphOS fans would have enjoyed LimeOS a lot even if it had been based on key MorphOS technologies.


    I can imagine that MorphOS role in the real (never produced) LimePC was just boring user interface, none of the fun we enjoy tweaking here and there.
    Now I wonder if even a single line of code was ever written for LimePC. I guess not.

    By the way, of course, I realize that the MorphOS Team is not a "Genesi department" at all. I guess everyone here does. And I also realize that the Team must be quited bored about us kicking this dead horse again.

    So off to some other matter. How's that x86 port doing?

    (me ducks)
  • »25.06.09 - 08:16
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1371 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ jcmarcos

    Quote:

    Indeed, the MPC5121e is limited. But you already ported MorphOS to the even weaker MPC5200B in the Efika


    I have said this before and I will say it again: I consider an Efika Open Client to be clearly superior to the Cherrypal nettop with regards to overall performance as a desktop computer. (Ability to use *modern* screen resolutions, running 3D games, working with the default "layers3d"-enabled MorphOS 2.x user interface, and so on)

    The PowerVR unit of the 5121e was designed for mobile phones and similar devices with comparably small screen sizes, thus represents a *major* bottleneck in the context of high-resolution desktop computing. (Clearly, the MPC5121e was targetted at very different applications so this should not come as a surprise.)

    Optimizing code and writing special drivers is not going to somehow turn the 5121e into a performance monster. It is not and it was not designed to be one.
  • »25.06.09 - 10:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:

    I have said this before and I will say it again:


    And we all thank you for your patience in repeting things you've already said.

    Quote:

    I consider an Efika Open Client to be clearly superior to the Cherrypal nettop with regards to overall performance as a desktop computer.


    Well, all this because the MPC5200B based Efika does NOT have video functions, and thus you must plug in a video card in its PCI slot, which incidentally is very powerful. We all remember the announced version with a graphics chip soldered on board (which was going to be a weak XGI).
    Using the MPC2151e PowerVR core does make sense, and at the same time does not make sense. Doh!
    Adding better graphics is something that could be done in an hypothetical MPC5121e board, if it had a PCI slot (the development board has). But this kind of setup would be, effectively, the same as the old MPC5200B Efika. We were talking about the existing LimePC/Cherrypal, so it's a no-go.
    If I remember it correctly, the MPC5121e offers no superior clock speed, cache, nor interfaces (well, there's SATA and better USB).

    All this talk about a computer that never existed! Are we amigans or what?!

    [ Edited by jcmarcos on 2009/6/25 12:09 ]
  • »25.06.09 - 11:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Velcro_SP
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:03 ]
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  • »25.06.09 - 12:13
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