X5000 GPU Recommendation?
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    sailor wrote:

    Yes, I agree. Such red vs blue wars are stupid. Unfortunately they are very common since Amiga birth ;-) I can say it is our hobby ;-)


    I wouldn't say since birth. While Commodore was still around it was all about advocacy. Anyone who lives through that era knows that extreme advocacy was not limited to Amiga or Commodore products. C64 owners knew their computer was the best since it was the best selling. Apple II owners knew their computer was best because it was "not a toy". IBM PC computers knew theirs to be the best because IBM was Big Blue. Atari ST knew theirs to be the best because of the due to the MIDI built in. It goes on and on.

    Commodore bankrupted and the interwebs was born. That advocacy transferred online. Communities formed in various ways, attempts by companies to revive the "Amiga" were being made. Some real, some bad jokes, and some outright scams. People starting making up their mind what was "teh reals" and what wasn't. Mini camps started forming. People would argue what was a "real Amiga" or not. Some of it in hindsight was pretty silly or stupid, but usually completely harmless.

    The problem came a little later. MorphOS started early and had negotiations with McBill's Amiga Inc to become OS4. Those fell through and MorphOS forged on independently. MorphOS was largely seen as a curiosity in these days as there were other similar (though simpler) projects like pOS. It wasn't until McBill contracted Hyperion (a small time game company) to port OS3.1 to PPC and call it OS4 did the ugliness begin.

    Pretty soon this game company's laywer started making statements like "MorphOS is based on stolen code", it was "illegal" and he was going to sue the developers. Suddenly there was no simple harmless advocacy, people took red or blue sides on if MorphOS was an illegal pirate product. The red side were the aggressors, the blue side were defending themselves.

    That's how it started. It simply got worse with actual lawsuits between companies (not MorphOS though). A certain Belgium lawyer poisoned the well. OS4 is essentially dead with only 3rd parties providing updates, so the war is essentially dead. However, the history helped create the differing paths. People who want to stay niche with "the name" largely stay on the red side. People who want to distance themselves from the name and forge a new path on industry standard hardware, largely go blue.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 28.05.2020 - 14:20 ]
  • »28.05.20 - 19:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I have learned only recently from Dave Needle (RIP) interviews
    > how much of an asshole Jack Tramiel was.

    At least this interview (excerpt?) seems to contain more (anecdotal) information about Sam and Leonard than about Jack himself.
  • »28.05.20 - 19:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Atom bios [...] is not present on G5 edition.

    Yes, I know. I'd have thought the Linux developers had catered to this difference. Pity they didn't.

    > fully-64bit/SMP MorphOS on [...] PA6T, [...] T2080

    I doubt we'll ever see MorphOS (NG or current gen) on Nemo/X1000. MorphOS on the T2080-based notebook would be nice (if it ever comes).

    >>> Next makes me sense go to PPC(le) - like Talos or Blackbird

    >> The nice thing about POWER9 is that it can still run in BE mode for legacy compatibility.

    > yes. And POWER8 also.

    Problem with POWER8 is the lack of a nice and relatively small and affordable desktop/workstation like the Blackbird is for POWER9.

    >>> migration to x86-64 for me means show stopper. [...] what advantage
    >>> MorphOS have over Win, linux or unix?

    >> Linux/Unix also run on non-x64 (ARM, Power etc.).

    > ARM in general not yet so powerful like x86-64, so there is a gap for MorphOS.
    > And both ARM and Power are used by enthusiast - also gap for MorphOS.

    What I meant was that if MorphOS makes no sense on x64 because it runs also Linux, then why should MorphOS make sense on ARM or Power where Linux runs as well?
  • »28.05.20 - 20:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Commodore bankrupted and the interwebs was born.

    ...or rather widespread. The WWW precedes Commodore's bankruptcy.

    > MorphOS started early and had negotiations with McBill's Amiga Inc
    > to become OS4. [...] MorphOS was largely seen as a curiosity in these
    > days as there were other similar (though simpler) projects like pOS.

    Development of pOS was abandoned before MorphOS development even started silently and years before first MorphOS beta release. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your implied timeline, but pOS and MorphOS certainly weren't contemporaries.

    > this game company's laywer started making statements like
    > "MorphOS is based on stolen code", it was "illegal"

    Remarkably, this lawyer was also one of the company's managing partners. And let's not forget who really started making those statements and kept on repeating them for at least a decade.

    > It simply got worse with actual lawsuits between companies

    Interestingly, the only somewhat "blue vs. red" lawsuit (Thendic/Genesi vs. Amiga Inc.) wasn't really about anything red (AmigaOS) or blue (MorphOS), even though the plaintiffs unsuccessfully tried to drag OS4 into this.

    > People who want to distance themselves from the name and forge
    > a new path on industry standard hardware, largely go blue.

    I can only speak for myself, but when I switched from AmigaOS 3.x to MorphOS 1.x, it wasn't to distance myself from the name. It was because I cared less for the name than for the technology and who offered it first. Had negotiations between MorphOS team and Amiga Inc. been successfull, I'd have remained an AmigaOS user :-)
  • »28.05.20 - 21:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 273 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > ARM in general not yet so powerful like x86-64, so there is a gap for MorphOS.
    > And both ARM and Power are used by enthusiast - also gap for MorphOS.

    What I meant was that if MorphOS makes no sense on x64 because it runs also Linux, then why should MorphOS make sense on ARM or Power where Linux runs as well?


    Again - important is what makes sense to Morphos-team guys. Not for me. But if you ask:
    Have a big sense to have MorphOS for example on my BananaPro or many other small "slow" SBCs. Yes, I have linux here, but.. Lazy, ugly compares to MOS on Pegasos2.
    And on Power? Power is Morphos "native" CPU. Talos/Blackbird are powerful modern computers. A1X5k / A1X1k are "new", but not modern. Not mention to Sam460Ex. Nevertheless it was very good job from A-Eon and A-Cube.
    When Morphos was borned, there was Pegasos - relatively modern and capable (i.e. not so far behind) these days compares to PC world. What computer can buy new users like gz3fwd?
    Btw, I have no problem to install MorphOS even to one lpar on s922 ;-) - the day is long an boring sometimes ;-)

    Sorry for offtopic.
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »29.05.20 - 07:34
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 257 from 2015/6/30
    If this can be addressed on both Sam460ex and X5000 then options are opened up.
    For the X5000 a PCI Radeon 9xxx card as a simple solution .

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > This is with the Polaris card installed but the SM502 as the first card initialized .
    > [...]
    > !!! OpenScreen(): Could not find any valid modeids. No graphics card? !!!

    Oh, this is bad and unexpected. Thanks for trying. I really wonder why MorphOS acts this way. Very unfortunate.
  • »29.05.20 - 16:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Commodore bankrupted and the interwebs was born.

    ...or rather widespread. The WWW precedes Commodore's bankruptcy.


    Yup, I mean widespread. Sure the internet has been around far longer, but the form we know of today really started forming in the 94-95 timeframe IMO.


    Quote:

    Development of pOS was abandoned before MorphOS development even started silently and years before first MorphOS beta release. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your implied timeline, but pOS and MorphOS certainly weren't contemporaries.


    Just reading too much into it. I wasn't suggesting they were direct contemporaries, only that people reading about the first reports of MorphOS wouldn't have been shocked. They'd have other examples to compare it to they had heard of that never really materialized. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think pOS was ever officially announced as dead?

    [ Edited by redrumloa 01.06.2020 - 08:42 ]
  • »01.06.20 - 13:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > people reading about the first reports of MorphOS wouldn't have
    > been shocked. They'd have other examples to compare it to they
    > had heard of that never really materialized.

    The main differences between the pOS pre-release and the first public MorphOS beta release were, from my perspective:
    One needed to run on top of AmigaOS while the other didn't (just required Workbench for lack of own graphical program launcher). One couldn't run AmigaOS software while the other could. One was all m68k while the other ran natively on my PowerPC.
    To me, these made all the difference between a dead-end curiosity and the beginnings of a viable path to the future.

    > I don't think pOS was ever officially announced as dead?

    Correct, as with the vast majority of abandoned projects. On the other hand, I've just found a German forum post from 2007 that reports proDAD's information (in reply to an inquiry to allow putting the OS on Aminet) that pOS was a commercially very successful product at that time (2007!). Maybe as an embedded OS? (Edit: Another post confirms this and speaks of industrial use.) We don't know as the planned interview didn't happen, AFAIK.

    Btw, fun fact: pOS can run hosted on MorphOS according to this German forum post from MorphOS 1.4.5 era.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 29.05.2022 - 11:56 ]
  • »01.06.20 - 19:01
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 5 from 2020/5/24
    I am the OP.
    I just stumbled upon the great news that the MorphOS bug preventing a 2nd PCI-E GPU being used has been fixed in 3.17.
    Thank you to the developers for fixing this. Now I can have the best of both worlds.
    I will be looking for a 1950 XT for MOS to complement the 580 for AOS41.
    The 1950 will fit in the Define 7's vertical GPU slot, and with riser should not block other AIC slots on the 5000 motherboard.

    I will say my perception from this experience is some of the MOS team comes across as hyper sensitive cry babies. Instead of getting angry at users asking questions and blaming others but not looking in the mirror until now is really sad. Luckily this MOS bug has been fixed and I am personally grateful to the developer(s) who fixed this. Was the bug more complicated than hardcoded expectation of the display adapter being in the x16 slot? Without sources I will never know, but regardless now all x5000 owners in my shoes can now use MorphOS. Well done to whomever fixed it.
  • »29.05.22 - 07:34
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1342 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    I will say my perception from this experience is some of the MOS team comes across as hyper sensitive cry babies. Instead of getting angry at users asking questions and blaming others but not looking in the mirror until now is really sad.

    No good deed goes unpunished.
  • »29.05.22 - 08:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2710 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    qz3fwd wrote:

    I will say my perception from this experience is some of the MOS team comes across as hyper sensitive cry babies. Instead of getting angry at users asking questions and blaming others but not looking in the mirror until now is really sad.


    What an unnecessary insulting comment. Totally uncalled for. Where on earth did that come from?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »29.05.22 - 08:55
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    MoerBoer
    Posts: 170 from 2019/10/15
    OP gets the fix they wanted and then goes on a rampage attacking the developers.

    Boggles the mind...
  • »29.05.22 - 09:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Was the bug more complicated than hardcoded expectation
    > of the display adapter being in the x16 slot?

    At least my impression, which may very well be plain wrong, from the relevant thread (which fell victim to the recent data loss unfortunately) was that bigfoot was easily able to identify the nature of the bug (as his initial hunch in that thread proved true). To me it seemed that it wasn't that hard for him to incorporate the actual fix also.
    Assuming that this impression isn't too far from the truth, I must admit I've been somewhat puzzled that it took 4 years of reporting this issue here on MorphZone before it was eventually taken on.
  • »29.05.22 - 12:51
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  • MorphOS Developer
    bigfoot
    Posts: 409 from 2003/4/11
    I seem to remember that I did write a somewhat detailed explanation of what the problems were, but it got lost in said data loss. What I don't understand is why some people seem to jump to conclusions, that it was just a matter of flipping a switch, a tiny change to somehow make MorphOS "search" for a graphics card in the right slot, and the MorphOS developers were just too lazy to do this tiny change.

    I honestly don't want to go into too many technical details once again, but let me just say that that is not how MorphOS (or any other operating system really) works. Nobody looks for a specific card in a specific slot. The PCI (express) bus(es) get scanned, and then the operating system makes an API available that allows drivers to find cards, usually based on the card's device and vendor IDs. At no point does any specific slot come into this equation.

    When it comes to fixing this issue, first you gotta realise that it involves are quite uncommon hardware setup, and not one that is readily available. Initially there was no MorphOS developer who had such a setup, or could create such a setup, without investing in additional hardware.

    Fixing this issue spanned a duration of 2.5 weeks. Of course not 2.5 weeks of non-stop work on this issue, but it definitely wasn't a simple matter of just flipping a switch. I did have an initial idea of what the problem was, one I believed I could fix without having access to this setup myself. So I went ahead and did just that, and I enlisted the help of a person here on MorphZone with the prerequisite setup for testing.

    It turned out that while my "blind" fix was indeed correct, it wasn't the only problem preventing MorphOS from booting with multiple Radeons installed, and figuring out the remaining problems would take too long without having such a setup myself, so I went out and bought a PCI Express riser card so I could run my own X5000 with two graphics cards. From there on, I identified multiple different problems that all contributed to this problem, and I fixed them all.

    All in all, the diff for the cumulative fixes that made MorphOS boot with multiple Radeons in the X5000 is almost 1000 lines long. It was not a simple fix.
    I rarely log in to MorphZone which means that I often miss private messages sent on here. If you wish to contact me, please email me at [username]@asgaard.morphos-team.net, where [username] is my username here on MorphZone.
  • »29.05.22 - 13:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I seem to remember that I did write a somewhat detailed explanation
    > of what the problems were, but it got lost in said data loss.

    Seems the data loss occurred too soon after you wrote that detailed explanation for me to read it. If I had, my previous comment would surely have come out differently.

    > […] It turned out that while my "blind" fix was indeed correct, it wasn't the
    > only problem preventing MorphOS from booting with multiple Radeons
    > installed […]. From there on, I identified multiple different problems that all
    > contributed to this problem, and I fixed them all. All in all, the diff for
    > the cumulative fixes that made MorphOS boot with multiple Radeons in the
    > X5000 is almost 1000 lines long. It was not a simple fix.

    Thank you for the insight.
  • »29.05.22 - 14:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1908 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    So can we now boot an X5000 with the two cards and OS4 doesnt choke on having two? I havent tried this and just saw the update supports two cards now. Pretty impressive solution.

    What about a 2nd HDD installed with MorphOS on it, will this work out of the box if I put in a 2nd card and replaced the DVD with my MorphOS SATA drive?

    [ Edited by Acill 29.05.2022 - 08:58 ]
    AmigaOne X5000 with MorphOS Installed
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  • »29.05.22 - 15:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > can we now boot an X5000 with the two cards and OS4 doesnt choke
    > on having two?

    Yes, but OS4 still requires its card in the primary slot, else there wouldn't have been any problem as the MorphOS card has always worked in the primary slot and OS4 would have simply used its card in the secondary slot (which it cannot, at least with the primary slot in use).
    As is known from running dual-boot OS4/Linux on X5000, OS4 running on the primary card isn't disturbed by a secondary card.
  • »29.05.22 - 16:44
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  • MorphOS Developer
    bigfoot
    Posts: 409 from 2003/4/11
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    can we now boot an X5000 with the two cards and OS4 doesnt choke on having two?


    Yes, but OS4 still requires its card in the primary slot, else there wouldn't have been any problem as the MorphOS card has always worked in the primary slot and OS4 would have simply used its card in the secondary slot (which it cannot, at least with the primary slot in use).
    As is known from running dual-boot OS4/Linux on X5000, OS4 running on the primary card isn't disturbed by a secondary card.


    The logic is slightly faulty here, and it might be caused by the previous (wrong) speculation. I have no idea if AmigaOS 4 can or cannot boot with its graphics card in a non-primary slot, but in the case of MorphOS, it couldn't boot at all with a Radeon in anything but the primary (x16) slot. At all. It wouldn't even get to the point where it would try to load the Radeon driver.
    I rarely log in to MorphZone which means that I often miss private messages sent on here. If you wish to contact me, please email me at [username]@asgaard.morphos-team.net, where [username] is my username here on MorphZone.
  • »30.05.22 - 11:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11631 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I have no idea if AmigaOS 4 can or cannot boot with
    > its graphics card in a non-primary slot

    IIRC from the discussions over the years, if there're two OS4-compatible graphics cards installed in the X5000, OS4 will always use the one in the primary slot. There's no way to make OS4 ignore the card in the X5000's primary slot and use the (better supported) one in the secondary slot instead (or in addition). This was stated as an unfortunate regression from the X1000 where OS4 can even use two graphics cards concurrently in a dual-GPU setup. I have no idea though about OS4-incompatible graphics cards in the X5000's primary slot as all MorphOS-compatible graphics cards are also OS4-compatible to the extent that OS4 can boot with them.

    > MorphOS [...] couldn't boot at all with a Radeon in anything
    > but the primary (x16) slot. At all. It wouldn't even get to
    > the point where it would try to load the Radeon driver.

    Thanks for the clarification. Do I understand the situation right that pre-3.17, MorphOS couldn't even boot with a MorphOS-compatible card in the X5000's primary slot as long as another Radeon (MorphOS-compatible or not) was inserted into the secondary slot?
  • »30.05.22 - 15:15
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  • MorphOS Developer
    bigfoot
    Posts: 409 from 2003/4/11
    Yes, you're understanding it right. And technically it didn't specifically have to be a Radeon, but any set of PCI devices with the right set of PCI memory bases could trigger this bug. Radeons in general just do that reliably.
    I rarely log in to MorphZone which means that I often miss private messages sent on here. If you wish to contact me, please email me at [username]@asgaard.morphos-team.net, where [username] is my username here on MorphZone.
  • »30.05.22 - 15:29
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 5 from 2020/5/24
    Quote:

    bigfoot wrote:
    Yes, you're understanding it right. And technically it didn't specifically have to be a Radeon, but any set of PCI devices with the right set of PCI memory bases could trigger this bug. Radeons in general just do that reliably.


    Thank you bigfoot for fixing the bug that was preventing myself (and perhaps other x5000 owners) from using MorphOS.

    I ordered a 1950 XTX and will order a riser adapter soon.
    It is a nice benefit that the 1950 XTX PCB is red, as is the semi-transparent wind tunnel matching the x5000 PCB. My Define has a tinted glass side panel.
    Luckily I checked and have a Corsair 750 PSU, as I thought I had put a SF450 in the machine.
    Reading up on the cards they both seem to be power hungry.

    This is the best of both worlds for me. A ~2006 GPU for MOS, and a ~2018 GPU for AOS-maximizing capabilities on each OS.

    Some may not like statement of my impression(s) of the MOS teams response to potential new users and that is OK.
    I think it is important the team be told how they interact with their own user base.
    Do what you will with this feedback.

    Now that this bug has been fixed all x5000 users stand to benefit.
  • »31.05.22 - 03:49
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