I own the fastest NG Amiga Compatible - Prove me wrong!
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    naTmeg
    Posts: 135 from 2004/2/8
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    I wonder if TinyGL is even being used on MorphOS. The moment the game is launched my CPU load jumps to 100% and stays there. 100% of cpu load at 2.7Ghz?


    I also bought the game. First I want to say that the game/fun itself is very good, but the author stated he switched from HW- to SW-rendering!? It's literally unplayable on an Peg2/1Ghz with a Radeon 9200. I've played it for one hour but had to stop then. The frame-rate stays around ~30 if no enemy is on screen, but as soon as there is a combat, the rate drops to 20 or lower. The scrolling is so horrible that it gave me a headache.

    Either the port is a total technical mess or the original game. Don't buy. (in this state)
  • »05.09.18 - 17:04
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1824 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    naTmeg wrote:
    I also bought the game. First I want to say that the game/fun itself is very good, but the author stated he switched from HW- to SW-rendering!? It's literally unplayable on an Peg2/1Ghz with a Radeon 9200. I've played it for one hour but had to stop then. The frame-rate stays around ~30 if no enemy is on screen, but as soon as there is a combat, the rate drops to 20 or lower. The scrolling is so horrible that it gave me a headache.

    Either the port is a total technical mess or the original game. Don't buy. (in this state)



    The original game didn't keep lower specs in mind at all and wasted everything horribly :) Daniel made a huge work to get this converted to our more "modest" machines (modest compared to current PCs). Here is a thread where he replies to questions and talks about the game and reasoning behind the porting.

    I have played the game in two player mode quite far on a Mac mini 1.5GHz, and it's been fully playable on FullHD resolution. So, Radeon 9200 in mini does the job, but maybe it's a crucial difference in CPU and memory speeds between Mac mini and Peg2...
  • »05.09.18 - 17:32
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1300 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    jPV wrote:
    I have played the game in two player mode quite far on a Mac mini 1.5GHz, and it's been fully playable on FullHD resolution. So, Radeon 9200 in mini does the job, but maybe it's a crucial difference in CPU and memory speeds between Mac mini and Peg2...


    The Radeon 9200 is connected via AGP x4 on Mac minis. The Pegasos II only features AGP x1 speed as far as I remember. Especially when you are using higher resolutions, this might cause a big difference in performance.
  • »05.09.18 - 19:04
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    naTmeg
    Posts: 135 from 2004/2/8
    @jPV:
    Thanks for the link, but I know that thread.

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Will G4 ~1Ghz + Altivec + Radeon 9200 be enough to have it playable under MOS


    Yes, that will be enough.


    I didn't read the whole thing, but that response was the reason for me to give it a try.

    Also, minimum requirements: MorphOS >= 3.9, >= 600 MHz, Gfx-card with TinyGL support

    Something is off the road here :)
  • »05.09.18 - 19:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1128 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    naTmeg wrote:
    Quote:


    Quote:


    Will G4 ~1Ghz + Altivec + Radeon 9200 be enough to have it playable under MOS


    Yes, that will be enough.


    I didn't read the whole thing, but that response was the reason for me to give it a try.



    I guess a G4 PowerMac at 1 GHz equipped with Radeon 9200 would run circles around your Pegasos... sadly.
  • »05.09.18 - 20:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11480 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I wonder if TinyGL is even being used on MorphOS.

    The game is using software rendering on all Amiga-like platforms (i.e all versions done by Daytona675x). TinyGL on MorphOS (just like compositing on OS4 and Mesa3D on AROS) is only used for scaling the game display to the on-screen resolution.
  • »05.09.18 - 23:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11480 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the author stated he switched from HW- to SW-rendering!? [...]
    > Either the port is a total technical mess or the original game.

    The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM. That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.
  • »06.09.18 - 00:09
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    naTmeg
    Posts: 135 from 2004/2/8
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM. That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.

    Okay, but then why port such a hungry and obviously bad programmed game in the first place?

    On a PC you may waste resources like this, but if you plan to release it on different platforms, you have to take some special care, especially if those target-platforms are magnitudes weaker as the original HW. You need a different rendering-path with some kind of texture-streaming, even if that means you have to pause the game at some door and load the next sections, like in Half Life 2. In such a game, the scrolling must be absolutely liquid and unnoticeable.

    I don't blame Daytona675x, maybe he did the best possible to bring this mess in shape. I blame the concept of advertising and selling a game for "Amiga NG" which then does barely work on the fastest machines available. If it can't be done properly, don't do it.
  • »06.09.18 - 08:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1128 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    naTmeg wrote:
    I blame the concept of advertising and selling a game for "Amiga NG" which then does barely work on the fastest machines available.



    I wouldn't call 130 FPS "barely working". And Pegasos II is currently one of the weakest MorphOS compatible machines available.
  • »06.09.18 - 08:49
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1300 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    naTmeg wrote:
    Okay, but then why port such a hungry and obviously bad programmed game in the first place?

    Because it appears to run just fine on the most widely used systems, i.e. Mac minis and Powerbooks.


    Quote:

    I blame the concept of advertising and selling a game for "Amiga NG" which then does barely work on the fastest machines available. If it can't be done properly, don't do it.


    What do you classify as "fastest machines available"? I am afraid your Pegasos II is not in that category. It is below the average both in terms of CPU and GPU (crippled AGP) performance.

    The numbers shared by Mac mini and PowerMac G5 owners indicate that performance is fine on these systems.
  • »06.09.18 - 08:53
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1824 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    naTmeg wrote:
    I don't blame Daytona675x, maybe he did the best possible to bring this mess in shape. I blame the concept of advertising and selling a game for "Amiga NG" which then does barely work on the fastest machines available. If it can't be done properly, don't do it.

    IIRC the main developer of the game was an ex-Amiga user (or gamer), and he wanted to make a modern game with some Amiga spirit, and he was fascinated by the idea to release it also to NG Amigas. Unfortunately it seems that he/they didn't have realistic impression about hardware capabilities, and even though the game sounded to be portable at first and good promises were made, they changed all kinds of stuff to worse in the middle of the project and Daytona675x had to react to them with the best he could.

    Daytona675x didn't give up for what's been started and I think it's great for us, because the game is the best (and new!) game we've seen in ages on our platforms anyway. I don't think my Mac mini is among the fastest machines anymore, and still the game runs fine on it.
  • »06.09.18 - 09:27
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    naTmeg
    Posts: 135 from 2004/2/8
    koszer:
    > I wouldn't call 130 FPS "barely working". And Pegasos II is currently one of the weakest MorphOS compatible machines available.

    ASiegel:
    > Because it appears to run just fine on the most widely used systems, i.e. Mac minis and Powerbooks.
    > The numbers shared by Mac mini and PowerMac G5 owners indicate that performance is fine on these systems.

    Ok, the term "only working" would have been more correct. I didn't look at the benchmarks so far.

    jPV:
    Thanks for the context. So this all means it's finally time to get my G5? :)
  • »06.09.18 - 10:24
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cool_amigaN
    Posts: 636 from 2011/11/30
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the author stated he switched from HW- to SW-rendering!? [...]
    > Either the port is a total technical mess or the original game.

    The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM. That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.



    No, I own the game on both Windows and MorphOS and runs fine (>30-50 fps) on 1680x1050 under a GeForce 9700M GT 512MB VRAM. It just lists 1GB VRam as min. requirement but that isn't representative of the truth.

    In any case, scrolling is smoother (!) on G4 1,67Ghz MorphOS 9800XT 256MB ram 2xAGP than on a Windows7 Core2Duo@2.3Ghz 4GB Ram, and 9700GT 512MB, which is remarkebly impressive (ok, on MorphOS I run it on 1280x1024 but nevertheless Daytona's work is amazing!).

    Frankly it looks much more optimized on MorphOS than on Windows. However, I also get 100% cpu (check this grab)

    [ Edited by Cool_amigaN 06.09.2018 - 14:35 ]
    Amiga gaming Tribute: Watch, rate, comment :)
  • »06.09.18 - 11:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11480 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM.
    >> That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.

    > if you plan to release it on different platforms, you have to take
    > some special care

    Yes, that's exactly what he did by switching to software rendering :-)

    > those target-platforms are magnitudes weaker as the original HW.

    I think one single magnitude will do ;-)
  • »06.09.18 - 14:46
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Complaints about cpu usage aside, the fact that this is available across all NG platforms is significant.

    I wouldn't rake Trevor over the coals too much about his "benchmark".
    Putting a product you are selling in a good light is only natural.

    It would have been nice to see this package use hardware acceleration.
    But the differences between platforms would make coding using that more complex.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.18 - 15:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11480 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM.
    >> That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.

    > No, [...] the game on [...] Windows [...] runs fine [...] under [...] 512MB VRAM.
    > It just lists 1GB VRam as min. requirement but that isn't representative of
    > the truth.

    Thanks for the report. But even 512 MiB VRAM can't be used by MorphOS. Maximum is 256 MiB which the game cannot run with in hardware rendering, and most MorphOS users only have 64 or 128 MiB VRAM anyway.
  • »06.09.18 - 16:31
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Daytona675x
    Posts: 109 from 2013/12/5
    Oh boy...

    @redrumloa
    Quote:

    I understand from your previous post(s) that AGP bandwidth may be limiting. As you stated, that seems a bit odd

    The game is software-rendered and the final bitmap must eventually be converted and pushed to VRAM every frame and then scaled up. That's why I chose TinyGL for that task, to offload the upscaling to the GPU to minimize bandwidth usage. On AOS4 I chose Compositing, on AROS MesaGL.

    Quote:

    I went back and read Trevor's blog and he doesn't say what resolution he is using so i assume the default windowed mode.

    Exactly, windowed, default resolution, dedicated save-game for beta-testers, mouse-cursor moved to the lower-right corner to have exactly the same conditions on ALL (! ALL !) platforms.

    @jpV
    Quote:

    At least I get "performance warnings" (bitmap doesn't have BMF_3DTARGET set)

    The surface and texture used are managed by TinyGL. It should know best what bitmap attributes to set and which not.

    @koszer
    Quote:

    Yep, that's a clever trick by Trevor. Tower57 runs faster in windowed mode than on fullscreen (that's why the FPS counter on his page favours OS4 over MorphOS).

    All such benchmarks should have been made under the same conditions mentioned above. And IMHO Trevor is not childish enough to cheat.

    Quote:

    In fullscreen mode FPS counter is stable at around 60 (I assume the game forces VSYNC in the fullscreen mode).

    Yes. Which is also why I told everybody who made performance measurements to use the default window mode.

    @Andreas_Wolf
    Quote:

    There are, which Daytona675x prepared and used for his benchmarks and obviously shared with Trevor.

    Yes, they were shared with all beta-testers, Trevor happened to be one of them.

    @redrumloa
    Quote:

    Where can I download it? Link?

    Nowhere, at least I didn't preserve them. And it doesn't matter, you can take any save-game you like and use that for comparison. The important part is that it's window-mode, the same save-game and the same settings on all devices. And that everything else is identical too (e.g. excactly the same scrolling position). Of course your own save-game will probably have its emphasis on other aspects of the game as the ones I used and thus lead to very different results. But the general "system X is around y-times as fast as system Z" should usually be the same. However, Trevor's benchmarks are old. It wasn't the final version 1 back then, IIRC.

    Quote:

    It depends what's going on in the game, the FPS varies wildly.

    Yes.

    Quote:

    I wonder if TinyGL is even being used on MorphOS. The moment the game is

    It is. I don't know how many times I stated in public how things work and why...

    Quote:

    The moment the game is launched my CPU load jumps to 100% and stays there. 100% of cpu load at 2.7Ghz?

    Yes. I need all performance I can get. As a reminder: the original PC version drops down to 15 fps in some areas on my Sony Vaio (and can't even keep steady 60 fps on my i7 all the time)... I optimized the absolute *hell* out of this, but yes, I need all the performance your antique system can deliver, sorry.

    Quote:

    The problem is the bizarre "benchmark" of it to promote OS4 superiority.

    You are surmising something that isn't there.


    @ASiegel
    Quote:

    The game happens to have been ported by someone who has also been contracted by A-eon to work on their 3D graphics stack.

    I am not involved into Warp3D Nova (in fact I was one of its biggest critics back then, but since then it became much better). I was hired by A-eon to implement OpenGL ES 2 and occasionally extend it for some $. And that's it with my relationship with them. I'm not even part of their development team.

    Quote:

    As was just announced, they will fly him out for Amiwest all the way from Europe even.

    No need for conspiracy or other wild theories. As so often with normal people, things happen because of pretty simple reasons. In this case here the situation is simply that Trevor's and my contact was rather close during T57-dev, because he was a very active tester (guess what, he's one of the guys who helped testing the MOS version too). Simply because of kindness and likely because one came to know and respect the other, he asked me some weeks ago if I'd like to come over to AmiWest. I said yes, which resulted in him bringing my name on the table of the AmiWest comitee. And those guys, not aeon, decided to select me this year, thanks. For your notes: AmiWest != Aeon. And AmiWest != AOS4. Yes, believe it or not: not everybody is an bigoted militant Amiga flavour fanboy spreading FUD or other crap.

    Quote:

    I do not think it is far fetched to assume that the version for Hyperion Entertainment's OS is the most optimized one compared to the AROS and MorphOS ports.

    That's probably the most insane acusation I ever heard in Amigaland. Complete nonsense, of course. Last not least because I actually spent most time with the MOS version, thanks to the rather limited joypad support through sensors.library.
    You know, pal, in contrast to you and some other guys here I'm known for *not* being a fanboy of one particular Amiga flavour, that's why I even supported AROS, although less than a handful of people actually use that version of the game (and I knew that it would be this way beforehand).
    It's really extremely far fetched that I should prefer one version over the other / optimize one more than the other.
    Besides that it's also technical nonsense: the game-logic incl. the software renderer is practically identical on all Amiga systems (AROS differs a tiny bit, because I didn't use asm there at all).

    Quote:

    Of course, if you want to gauge the credibility of the published benchmark numbers, all you need to remember is that results on AROS were not included...

    No need to come up with yet another pointless conspiracy theory. In case of Trevor the simple explanation is: he had no AROS system at hand, guess what... Yes, the simple truth can be so boring.
    And in my case: I published lots of my own benchmarks at different places in public, incl. those of my own AROS system.
    Really, man. Stop spreading bullshit, thanks.


    @naTmeg
    Quote:

    Also, minimum requirements: MorphOS >= 3.9, >= 600 MHz, Gfx-card with TinyGL support. Something is off the road here :)

    That should be enough to be playable using the 16bit version. Even my MOS G4 733 can handle that good enough. I suppose you read the readme etc. If nothing helps: bad luck, sorry.
    And before somebody asks again: no, there is no demo version, no, I'm not the rights holder, no, I'm not involved in sales.


    @Andreas_Wolf
    Quote:

    The original game uses hardware rendering but needs 1 GiB or so VRAM. That's the reason Daytona675x gave for switching to software rendering.

    Not that much, but definitely too much for my lowest end targets, yes :) The whole gfx system was designed in a way that made it impossible to use hw-acceleration on most systems (exception: W3D Nova and maybe some fat AROS systems). And even if: my software-renderer runs faster than the original OpenGL-renderer on Windows... And the quality is higher (the lighting calculations are much more exact because, well, they are calculated and not based on a too-small fixed light-sphere-texture).

    @naTmeg
    Quote:

    Okay, but then why port such a hungry and obviously bad programmed game in the first place?

    Because I did not know that it would be coded so sub-optimal when I said "yes" to port it some year before. I thought it would be pretty optimal code. I was wrong. But instead of simply canceling that project I spend half a fucking year optimizing / rewriting crucial parts of it.

    Quote:

    I blame the concept of advertising and selling a game for "Amiga NG" which then does barely work on the fastest machines available

    It runs (too) fast on fast Amiga machines. Actually faster than on the many PCs :)
    But yes, I'd also have liked it more if it had been fast enough in the beginning and if it had been the "some weekends"-job I though it would be :P

    Quote:

    Ok, the term "only working" would have been more correct.

    Actually I'm pretty happy that it's well playable even on what I considered my min. specs. And regarding the specs: I actually managed to LOWER them compared to my estimation during the Kickstarter campaign when I didn't know the source yet :)

    @Cool_amigaN
    Quote:

    In any case, scrolling is smoother (!) on G4 1,67Ghz MorphOS 9800XT 256MB ram 2xAGP than on a Windows7 Core2Duo@2.3Ghz 4GB Ram, and 9700GT 512MB, which is remarkebly impressive (ok, on MorphOS I run it on 1280x1024 but nevertheless Daytona's work is amazing!).

    Thanks :) One reason why the Amiga version is *really* smoother is because it is.
    The original game's logic is not decoupled from the physical fps, so if the frame-rate drops below 30 then internal calculations go wrong, interpolations are calculated falsely (incl. scrolling interpolation), shots start going through enemies, etc. and everywhere.
    The Amiga version is decoupled from the fps.
    Which in turn means that the Amiga version has to do much more work than the PC version per frame (unless everything runs fast enough; so low-end systems are the ones with the extra burden). Plus software-rendering.
    Btw.: besides all the stuff I wrote on the web in the past regarding technical aspects / issues, the game itself contains an easter-egg, namely an not-so-hard-to-find (incomplete) list of some of the optimizations / changes I made with the biggest impact.

    Anyway, enough.
    Cheerio! And to all the conspiracy-theory guys: get a life.
    Daniel

    [ Editiert durch Daytona675x 06.09.2018 - 19:08 ]
  • »06.09.18 - 16:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    And considering the fact that we now have support for cards with 512MB or more (up to 2GB) of vram, this limitation shouldn't exist.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.18 - 16:45
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Daytona675x
    Posts: 109 from 2013/12/5
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    And considering the fact that we now have support for cards with 512MB or more (up to 2GB) of vram, this limitation shouldn't exist.

    Please read above and remember that the lower-end machines are the ones which determine the course. Really, how often do I have to repeat it?
  • »06.09.18 - 16:53
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Daytona675x wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    And considering the fact that we now have support for cards with 512MB or more (up to 2GB) of vram, this limitation shouldn't exist.

    Please read above and remember that the lower-end machines are the ones which determine the course. Really, how often do I have to repeat it?


    Yes, I understand that, and the fact is that 128MB cards are typical for MorphOS (with some systems like the Mac Mini only offerinng 64MB at best).

    I'm not commenting on anything you have done Daniel. It's just that our developers could make more vram available on higher end cards.

    And what you've impl emented, across all NG OS' is impressive.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.18 - 17:44
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Daytona675x
    Posts: 109 from 2013/12/5
    @Jim
    Sorry, I just saw that our posts apparently overlapped, so you didn't actually had a chance to read my stuff... and I still had some foam at the mouth thanks to some other guys :-P
    Thanks ;-)
  • »06.09.18 - 17:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1128 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Daytona675x wrote:

    All such benchmarks should have been made under the same conditions mentioned above. And IMHO Trevor is not childish enough to cheat.



    I just can't understand why G5 2.5 GHz (I know, an antique system) gives him around 60 FPS, even with stock Radeon 9600. And even then, using a low-end video card against Radeon HD 7xxx is a bit childish, isn't it? ;)
  • »06.09.18 - 17:50
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1300 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ Daytona675x

    Care to point out where I stated that anybody conspired to do anything?

    I merely pointed out that you have a close relationship with A-eon and so it should not be surprising if in fact Tower57 ran a bit better on their software stack.

    That is not an unreasonable statement nor an accusation. In fact, I specifically wrote that there would be nothing wrong if that was the case.

    On the other hand, I cannot say I am even in the slightest surprised by your complete and utter overreaction. Par for the course, apparently.
  • »06.09.18 - 17:53
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1300 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Daytona675x wrote:
    and I still had some foam at the mouth thanks to some other guys :-P


    You might want to get yourself tested for rabies.
  • »06.09.18 - 17:57
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4956 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Daytona675x wrote:
    @Jim
    Sorry, I just saw that our posts apparently overlapped, so you didn't actually had a chance to read my stuff... and I still had some foam at the mouth thanks to some other guys :-P
    Thanks ;-)



    Hey, I LIKE what you've managed to accomplish, and I hope it serves as an example of what can be done with future projects.
    Oh, and rabid responses are par for the course when crossing multiple Amigoid communities.

    You did good.


    [ Edited by Jim 06.09.2018 - 14:43 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.18 - 18:15
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