MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 535 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> What's the repeating cycle in MorphOS supporting the X5000?

    > One side refusing to address showstopping minor changes or bugs, and the other side
    > accusing them of doing it on purpose. Or, one side really doing it on purpose.

    Regarding MorphOS on X5000, I see nobody refusing to do anything and nobody accusing anybody of anything (except you, that is). Can you be more specific?


    I think the official morphos team should be your source of reliable information. The rumours I've heard shouldn't be considered authoritative, and the only reason I insist in annoying Jim with them is because I fear another fallout between sides that'll catch users in the middle. It's scary that people are running into purchase without even waiting for official support.

    My suspicion is it's something to do with firmware. But that's totally a guess, based on my memories of similar things happening when Linux kernel hackers asked for source for the A1 firmware or help to find bugs. They got neither. It didn't stop Linux running on A1, but...
  • »11.10.16 - 16:07
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4744 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> What's the repeating cycle in MorphOS supporting the X5000?

    > One side refusing to address showstopping minor changes or bugs, and the other side
    > accusing them of doing it on purpose. Or, one side really doing it on purpose.

    Regarding MorphOS on X5000, I see nobody refusing to do anything and nobody accusing anybody of anything (except you, that is). Can you be more specific?


    I think the official morphos team should be your source of reliable information. The rumours I've heard shouldn't be considered authoritative, and the only reason I insist in annoying Jim with them is because I fear another fallout between sides that'll catch users in the middle. It's scary that people are running into purchase without even waiting for official support.

    My suspicion is it's something to do with firmware. But that's totally a guess, based on my memories of similar things happening when Linux kernel hackers asked for source for the A1 firmware or help to find bugs. They got neither. It didn't stop Linux running on A1, but...


    I appreciate the consideration Kenny, and I can be pretty abrasive (as both Andre and Trevor Dickenson would tell you), but I've been in contact with Trevor fairly recently, he knows what I want to use the system for.
    I don't think he'd encourage me to buy something I couldn't use.

    But I do know the history of what your referring to (or think I do, as probably does Andreas).
    I assume your referring to the controversy over PowerUP vs WarpUp/WarpOS.

    The entities involved in that are long gone, and I'd hope that that part of their legacy hasn't been retained by those who carry on development.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.16 - 17:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> that's totally a guess, based on my memories of similar things happening
    >> when Linux kernel hackers asked for source for the A1 firmware or help
    >> to find bugs. They got neither. It didn't stop Linux running on A1, but...

    > I assume your referring to the controversy over PowerUP vs WarpUp/WarpOS.

    I guess "A1" refers to the Eyetech AmigaOne SE/XE and the Micro-A1, not the PowerUP boards.
  • »11.10.16 - 17:36
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4744 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> that's totally a guess, based on my memories of similar things happening
    >> when Linux kernel hackers asked for source for the A1 firmware or help
    >> to find bugs. They got neither. It didn't stop Linux running on A1, but...

    > I assume your referring to the controversy over PowerUP vs WarpUp/WarpOS.

    I guess "A1" refers to the Eyetech AmigaOne SE/XE and the Micro-A1, not the PowerUP boards.


    Ah, better guess, but then we had nothing to do with that.
    And they seem to support Linux now.

    This whole idea hinges on the theory that there is so much animosity that they would try to prevent alternative OS' from running on the hardware.
    Is Acube assisting in the development of the X5000 firmware?
    It might have to involve the collusion of four different companies, Varysis, A-eon, Acube, and Hyperion.

    Still seems far fetched, but considering the history of that last firm...
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.16 - 17:47
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    eliyahu
    Posts: 65 from 2011/4/21
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> that's totally a guess, based on my memories of similar things happening
    >> when Linux kernel hackers asked for source for the A1 firmware or help
    >> to find bugs. They got neither. It didn't stop Linux running on A1, but...

    > I assume your referring to the controversy over PowerUP vs WarpUp/WarpOS.

    I guess "A1" refers to the Eyetech AmigaOne SE/XE and the Micro-A1, not the PowerUP boards.


    Ah, better guess, but then we had nothing to do with that.
    And they seem to support Linux now.

    This whole idea hinges on the theory that there is so much animosity that they would try to prevent alternative OS' from running on the hardware.
    Is Acube assisting in the development of the X5000 firmware?
    It might have to involve the collusion of four different companies, Varysis, A-eon, Acube, and Hyperion.

    Still seems far fetched, but considering the history of that last firm...

    you guys can relax. there is no such restriction. and by the way, the idea that A-EON would ever do anything remotely like that is nonsense on stilts. their interest is selling hardware. they want any and every platform possible running on it.

    -- eliyahu
    Check out the latest on next-generation Amiga computing at IntuitionBase.com!
  • »11.10.16 - 17:51
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1301 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:
    you guys can relax. there is no such restriction. and by the way, the idea that A-EON would ever do anything remotely like that is nonsense on stilts. their interest is selling hardware. they want any and every platform possible running on it.



    (pure speculation below)

    I'm sure A-Eonkit would indeed want to sell every last board they possibly can. Chances are though that HYPErion are the ones writing the firmware. The original Teron boards were re-flashed with custom HYPErion firmware to make them "AmigaOne" boards. This firmware supposed included anti-piracy features so Teron boards without the boing sticker markup couldn't run OS4. They did this because Teron evaluation boards could be purchased for almost 50% less than an AmigaOne branded board.

    If HYPErion are doing the firmware for the X5000, what's to say they don't create "features" that break MorphOS or at least making porting more difficult?

    (speculation mode off)
  • »11.10.16 - 18:09
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 107 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:

    So, people have figured out that there is no practical reason why MorphOS wouldn't run on X5000, it clearly does. There isn't a legal leg to stand on not running MorphOS on X5000, as even in 2016 you can still run anything you want on a computer. Or, wait, can you? I have a theory. Let's see how it pans out.

    Please note that MorphOS was publicly demonstrated running on an A-Eon X5000 at the Amiga 30 event in Neuss, Germany. Where do you think the developers got the required development hardware from more than a year before retail deliveries finally started?


    Nobody is denying that MorphOS *runs* on the X5000. Whether or not it runs optimally or requires invalidation of warranty, is another matter. And if it does not, there will be no official release of MorphOS.


    How could you possibly have to void the warranty by in order to run MorphOS on the X5000?


    Didn't you have a ppc accelerator? Reflashing its firmware with an unsupported one would have invalidated its warranty.

    People keep accusing me of raking up the past but it's really the repeating cycles that rake up me.



    I Got my BPPC second hand around 2001-2002 so long after the warranty anyway.

    X5000 firmware is on Micro SD so can easily be replaced with the original kept for backup purposes but if there was some magic MorphOS detection code in the firmware an OS update would quickly get around that. Anyway, I think your making a lot bluster about a non issue.
  • »11.10.16 - 18:18
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    eliyahu
    Posts: 65 from 2011/4/21
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:

    If Hyperion are doing the firmware for the X5000, what's to say they don't create "features" that break MorphOS or at least making porting more difficult?

    hyperion aren't doing the firmware. and A-EON are just as supportive to the MOS developers are they are to the AOS4 developers.

    -- eliyahu

    [ Edited by eliyahu 11.10.2016 - 15:35 ]
    Check out the latest on next-generation Amiga computing at IntuitionBase.com!
  • »11.10.16 - 18:34
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 107 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:
    you guys can relax. there is no such restriction. and by the way, the idea that A-EON would ever do anything remotely like that is nonsense on stilts. their interest is selling hardware. they want any and every platform possible running on it.



    (pure speculation below)

    I'm sure A-Eonkit would indeed want to sell every last board they possibly can. Chances are though that HYPErion are the ones writing the firmware. The original Teron boards were re-flashed with custom HYPErion firmware to make them "AmigaOne" boards. This firmware supposed included anti-piracy features so Teron boards without the boing sticker markup couldn't run OS4. They did this because Teron evaluation boards could be purchased for almost 50% less than an AmigaOne branded board.

    If HYPErion are doing the firmware for the X5000, what's to say they don't create "features" that break MorphOS or at least making porting more difficult?

    (speculation mode off)


    I thought the Terons cost several thousand in single quantities from MAI but it was a long time ago so I could be wrong. I don't think Terrasoft ever actually sold any. The BIOS wouldn't have been anymore difficult to pirate than a CD anyhow and user were able to download updates a reflash it themselves. If it was for Anti Piracy purposes it was pretty impotent.
  • »11.10.16 - 18:51
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4744 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:

    If Hyperion are doing the firmware for the X5000, what's to say they don't create "features" that break MorphOS or at least making porting more difficult?

    hyperion aren't doing the firmware. and A-EON are just as supportive to the MOS developers are they are to the AOS4 developers.

    -- eliyahu


    Yes, like I said, if A-eon/Varisys were to enlist anyone to help them with the firmware I would think it would be Acube.

    Any paranoia over Hyperion is probably misplaced.
    For all his bluster, Ben Hermans has never attempted to act against the use of MorphOS.
    And I don't think we really challenge their market.
    After all, the fanatics are always going to insist on the name and 'the real' product.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.16 - 19:00
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1854 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:


    Any paranoia over Hyperion is probably misplaced.
    For all his bluster, Ben Hermans has never attempted to act against the use of MorphOS.



    Well lets say, he never made an attempt based on tech....
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
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  • »11.10.16 - 20:12
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1301 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:
    hyperion aren't doing the firmware.


    No? Interesting, very interesting. If HYPE is not involved, I see serious flaws in Kenny's theory. It would make no sense for A-Eonkit to not want to sell as much hardware as they possibly can. While potential MorphOS buyers aren't a huge number, neither are potential OS4 buyers.

    I can't get on board with Kenny's theory then. I doubt he'd completely make something up, but unless his sources come forward with something substantial. it just doesn't add up.

    Do we know specifically is doing the firmware? AFAIK the AmigaOne name is licensed from HYPErion these days, right? Watching the Amiwest stream briefly with Tekmage(?) trying to do a game demo he kept crashing the X5000. Each crash and reboot gave what appeared to be an X5000 bootpic from the firmware.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 11.10.2016 - 17:22 ]
  • »11.10.16 - 20:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4744 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:


    Any paranoia over Hyperion is probably misplaced.
    For all his bluster, Ben Hermans has never attempted to act against the use of MorphOS.



    Well lets say, he never made an attempt based on tech....




    Or via a lawsuit, and he had no problem screwing over Bill.
    Lots of bluster (and a little bit of libel), but no action.

    BTW - What's going on with the quote formatting?
    These posts don't look right.

    [ Edited by Jim 11.10.2016 - 17:17 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.16 - 20:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1301 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    I thought the Terons cost several thousand in single quantities from MAI but it was a long time ago so I could be wrong. I don't think Terrasoft ever actually sold any. The BIOS wouldn't have been anymore difficult to pirate than a CD anyhow and user were able to download updates a reflash it themselves. If it was for Anti Piracy purposes it was pretty impotent.


    That was one of the major forum sh**-fights back in the day. The "OS4 Partners" claimed Terons were several thousand each, but individuals called MAI directly and found out otherwise. Even I called them at one point and verified this. I was considering adding unbranded Terons to my webshop at one point as a lark, but ultimately decided it would be a waste of money. I forget if they were $399 or $499 each directly from MAI, but it was substantially lower than the branded AmigaOne.

    The Terons probably couldn't have been made to boot OS4 because of firmware, or at least I couldn't with my knowledge.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 11.10.2016 - 17:23 ]
  • »11.10.16 - 20:20
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 535 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    The Terons probably couldn't have been made to boot OS4 because of firmware, or at least I couldn't with my knowledge.


    Don't forget that Genesi were busy trying to push Pegasos as an alternative Apple, so there was much alarm at the possibility of running OS4 in an emulator and bypassing the hardware sales completely. (Not that they ever had to worry, since that whole prospect was broken by design... and still is.) Oh, and there was the jealous guarding of code that is a hallmark of the Friedens. They just. Did. Not. Share.

    The idea of Amikit/A-Eon/Hyperion/OS4 devs colluding to spike the firmware and make it OS4 only isn't exactly what I had meant. They would need a working knowledge of MorphOS to do that, and I don't think they have it. In my head it's far more plausible that they spent money hiring a developer for their firmware, and aren't budgeted for any maintenance. But we're in the land of complete guesswork now.
  • »11.10.16 - 20:38
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
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    rob
    Posts: 107 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    I thought the Terons cost several thousand in single quantities from MAI but it was a long time ago so I could be wrong. I don't think Terrasoft ever actually sold any. The BIOS wouldn't have been anymore difficult to pirate than a CD anyhow and user were able to download updates a reflash it themselves. If it was for Anti Piracy purposes it was pretty impotent.


    That was one of the major forum sh**-fights back in the day. The "OS4 Partners" claimed Terons were several thousand each, but individuals called MAI directly and found out otherwise. Even I called them at one point and verified this. I was considering adding unbranded Terons to my webshop at one point as a lark, but ultimately decided it would be a waste of money. I forget if they were $399 or $499 each directly from MAI, but it was substantially lower than the branded AmigaOne.

    The Terons probably couldn't have been made to boot OS4 because of firmware, or at least I couldn't with my knowledge.


    I wasn't previously aware of that. The price I paid for my G4 board was just over £500 so it would have been about $800, so yes, around double. Jack Tramiel charged double for the PET in the UK too.

    Even the AmigaONE branded boards needed a firmware update to install the pre-release so it wouldn't have been a big deal to flash a Teron so it could boot OS4.
  • »11.10.16 - 21:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Ben Hermans has never attempted to act against the use of MorphOS.

    >> he never made an attempt based on tech....

    > Or via a lawsuit

    ...unless this includes threatening with a lawsuit.

    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/3sat-tv-show-update.html

    > and he had no problem screwing over Bill.

    That (series of) lawsuit(s) was started by Amiga Inc., though.
  • »11.10.16 - 22:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The idea of Amikit/A-Eon/Hyperion/OS4 devs

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmiKit ;-)

    > colluding to spike the firmware and make it OS4 only isn't exactly what I had meant.

    What is it then that you have meant?
  • »11.10.16 - 22:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> The "OS4 Partners" claimed Terons were several thousand each

    >> They simply quoted the website price.

    > The web price included developer support.

    Yes, I know.
  • »11.10.16 - 22:48
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4744 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> Ben Hermans has never attempted to act against the use of MorphOS.

    >> he never made an attempt based on tech....

    > Or via a lawsuit

    ...unless this includes threatening with a lawsuit.

    http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/3sat-tv-show-update.html

    > and he had no problem screwing over Bill.

    That (series of) lawsuit(s) was started by Amiga Inc., though.


    Yes, that was a fiasco, wasn't it?
    Its what actually got my attention a drew me into this community.
    Up until that point, I thought OS4 was long dead.
    Until Bill decided to sue to try to regain control over the whole thing there was little attention from the outside world.
    Not the smartest decision on his part, waiting too long, and then suing a lawyer.

    But I still get the impression that Ben's plan all along was to try to wrest control of the asset from McBill.

    An unsavory collection of people from Day 1, that they ever thought they could trust each other is truly amazing.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.10.16 - 23:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> That (series of) lawsuit(s) was started by Amiga Inc., though.

    > Up until that point, I thought OS4 was long dead.

    Well, AmigaOS 4.0 Final Update was no older than 4 months when the first lawsuit began.

    > Not the smartest decision on his part, waiting too long, and then suing a lawyer.

    Hermans didn't act as Hyperion's lawyer in these lawsuits at least :-)
  • »12.10.16 - 08:50
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 535 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > The idea of Amikit/A-Eon/Hyperion/OS4 devs

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmiKit ;-)

    > colluding to spike the firmware and make it OS4 only isn't exactly what I had meant.

    What is it then that you have meant?


    I already said. Same paragraph even.

    Quote:

    In my head it's far more plausible that they spent money hiring a developer for their firmware, and aren't budgeted for any maintenance.


    Hyperion were direct and vitriolic about not colluding. Amikit are more... Passive.

    [ Edited by KennyR 12.10.2016 - 12:06 ]
  • »12.10.16 - 10:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10264 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> colluding to spike the firmware and make it OS4 only isn't exactly what I had meant.

    >> What is it then that you have meant?

    > I already said. Same paragraph even. [...]

    I fail to see the MorphOS connection. Weren't you suggesting a problem for running MorphOS on the X5000 somehow?

    > Amikit

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmiKit ;-)
  • »12.10.16 - 10:22
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