MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > the quad core X5000 was be almost 50% more powerful than my current Quad core G5.

    In which benchmark?
  • »19.09.16 - 01:12
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    >> the quad core X5000 was be almost 50% more powerful than my current Quad core G5.

    > But a lot less powerful with one core

    ...as would be the quad-core G5. It doesn't matter if you compare four cores against four cores or one core against one core.
  • »19.09.16 - 01:15
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2485 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    And we don't know what they have planned for the X5000, but since that has both PCI and PCIe X1 expansion slots, it shouldn't be a problem.


    Well, at least AeonKit seems to be considering CMI8738 PCIe cards for the X5000, so...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »19.09.16 - 22:01
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    And we don't know what they have planned for the X5000, but since that has both PCI and PCIe X1 expansion slots, it shouldn't be a problem.


    Well, at least AeonKit seems to be considering CMI8738 PCIe cards for the X5000, so...



    Whatever they decide on, our developers can write drivers for (probably faster than their developers). No big deal.
    Besides, we could always pull out those cards and install an SB Live (the X5000 has PCI slots).
    For that matter, I don't need updated video drivers either, I could just plug in a Radeon X1950XTX - fast, last card with 2D acceleration, 512MB of vram. Those two would hold me.
    Plus there is a rumor floating around that we don't have a native lan driver for the X5000.
    Again, who needs it, we can just plug in a supported network or wireless card.

    The one thing we don't need is OS4, and THAT'S what's holding us up.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.09.16 - 22:53
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > Trevor [...] tried to convince me to NOT buy an X1000, and instead, wait for the X5000.

    That's real business sense ;-)

    > it was too late to get an X1000 from the first production batch, by the time I made up
    > my mind to purchase one

    This must have been after AmiWest 2011, then.

    >>> I think you understood my previous post

    >> No, I genuinely didn't, because speaking about profit for Trevor/A-Eon when the
    >> NRE costs are not factored into the sale price is beyond me.

    > NO! It is not beyond you, because you just explained it to the other forum member(s)
    > in one of your other replies.

    No, I didn't explain to anyone that speaking about profit for Trevor/A-Eon makes sense when the NRE costs are not factored into the sale price.

    > Profit is an inappropriate word perhaps, when the development costs are removed
    > from the calculations for determining the retail sales price of the X1000

    Not just "perhaps".

    > AmigaKit made a profit on each sale of an X1000

    Yes, but Leaman Computing Ltd. ("AmigaKit") is not A-Eon Technology Ltd. Total liabilities of A-Eon as of 2015 are 673,400 GBP. Can you guess who the main creditor is?

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9362&forum=9&start=22

    > It is unclear if Trevor and A-Eon made a small amount of money on each sale, broke
    > even, or suffered a small loss (on top of the huge loss of the development costs).

    If development costs could be ignored, I think it's a save bet that A-Eon would have made money. But it should be obvious that development costs can't be ignored when it comes to commercial projects. They have to be recouped, else it's nothing short of a commercial failure.
  • »19.09.16 - 22:55
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > OS4, [...] THAT'S what's holding us up.

    That's not true, according to MorphOS team member geit in comment #413.
  • »19.09.16 - 23:03
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > OS4, [...] THAT'S what's holding us up.

    That's not true, according to MorphOS team member geit in comment #413.


    Absolutely right.
    I rarely quote emails anymore (its not fair to the sender), but I got this from Bigfoot this morning "The release of MorphOS 3.10 is not in any way tied to the X5000".
    I don't think he would mind that being repeated.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.09.16 - 16:07
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > I got this from Bigfoot this morning "The release of MorphOS 3.10 is not in
    > any way tied to the X5000". I don't think he would mind that being repeated.

    Yes, neither here nor on amigaworld.net, I guess ;-)
  • »20.09.16 - 17:01
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4449 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I got this from Bigfoot this morning "The release of MorphOS 3.10 is not in
    > any way tied to the X5000". I don't think he would mind that being repeated.

    Yes, neither here nor on amigaworld.net, I guess ;-)


    Wouldn't know, I haven't posted anything about that message on AmigaWorld.
    Feel free to do so if you'd like. ;)

    I'm sure they will get around to mentioning it.

    And that is one of the few times you are going to see me quote a direct email, I made the mistake of misquoting Frank once, and I don't think he has forgiven me for that yet.
    I value anything these guys may mention, so I'm (learning) not to comment on those kind of emails.
    So... its STFU time.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.09.16 - 17:15
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    >>> I don't think he would mind that being repeated.

    >> Yes, neither here nor on amigaworld.net, I guess ;-)

    > Wouldn't know, I haven't posted anything about that message on AmigaWorld.

    Exactly, that's what I meant. You were spreading false information here on MorphZone and also the correction afterwards. On amigaworld.net you did only one of those two things so far (multiple times).

    > Feel free to do so if you'd like. ;)

    I don't have an account there.
  • »20.09.16 - 20:26
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4449 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> I don't think he would mind that being repeated.

    >> Yes, neither here nor on amigaworld.net, I guess ;-)

    > Wouldn't know, I haven't posted anything about that message on AmigaWorld.

    Exactly, that's what I meant. You were spreading false information here on MorphZone and also the correction afterwards. On amigaworld.net you did only one of those two things so far (multiple times).

    > Feel free to do so if you'd like. ;)

    I don't have an account there.


    You may have known it was false, I on the other hand did not and I don't appreciate the innuendo. Unlike you, I don't spend all my time reaserching this stuff.
    AND, when I was corrected by someone who would know, I posted it here.

    AmigaWorld? Maybe later.

    Edit - Ah, fug it, retraction post on AW as well.
    With apologies to all.

    Jim Igou


    [ Edited by Jim 20.09.2016 - 17:52 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.09.16 - 20:36
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > You may have known it was false

    Yes, from MorphOS team members who said so in public over the past months.

    > I on the other hand did not

    No reason to claim it as fact, then.

    > I don't appreciate the innuendo.

    Which innuendo?

    > Unlike you, I don't spend all my time reaserching this stuff.

    True, there should always be some proportionality between the kind and amount of public claims and the time spent for researching the underlying facts.

    > retraction post on AW as well.

    Appreciated that you did, but not at all the incentive stated there. I had hoped you felt it was simply the right thing to do.
  • »20.09.16 - 22:04
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4449 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Appreciated that you did, but not at all the incentive stated there. I had hoped you felt it was simply the right thing to do.


    Occasionally, I can manage to figure out the "right thing to do" without prompting.
    BUT, I must admit to some negation to that drive after interacting with you on this.

    And yes, while you may not appreciate it, part of the incentive was what I posted.
    Maybe not the whole reason, but I do take into consideration your opinion.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.09.16 - 23:08
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2495 from 2006/3/21
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    If development costs could be ignored, I think it's a save bet that A-Eon would have made money. But it should be obvious that development costs can't be ignored when it comes to commercial projects. They have to be recouped, else it's nothing short of a commercial failure.


    I don't think that the X1000 was expected to be a commercial success by anyone. I believe that Trevor knew going in that he was not going to get the development costs recouped, but he just wanted a new AmigaOne to run AmigaOS4.x on, and he had the spare money to spend on his favorite hobby. Also, there is no evidence that A-Eon made any money from X1000 sales, regardless of development costs. From comments Trevor has made from time to time, the impression I have gotten is that he was losing money on every X1000 sale, but that is only an impression, and I have no evidence of A-Eon's accounting, or actual costs for each X1000 system sold.

    I think I am not the only person who was surprised that Trevor wanted to continue producing AmigaOne hardware (which sadly also has almost zero chance of recouping development costs), once he had his own X1000 in his hands.

    I wonder who is paying the Hyperion Entertainment developers to port AmigaOS4.1FE to the X5000 and Tabor boards? It seems that A-Eon will pay Hyperion Entertainment a license fee for the AmigaOne name, plus pay for one copy of AmigaOS4.1FE to be included with each X5000 and Tabor sale, but I must assume that A-Eon is not in charge of, or paying developers for doing the porting work, or it would have been done sooner than now. Hyperion does not appear to have the funds to port AmigaOS4.1FE in a timely fashion to any new hardware.

    Edit: Hyperion Entertainment also does not have the funds or developers to complete AmigaOS4.2 at all (or at least it seems that way).

    [ Edited by amigadave 21.09.2016 - 00:05 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »21.09.16 - 06:02
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > I must admit to some negation to that drive after interacting with you on this.
    > [...] part of the incentive was what I posted.

    Well, everybody is responsible for his/her own credibility he/she is attributed by others. To me, retracting/correcting false assumptions/claims I made (especially in public) is an important part of this. But that's just me :-)
  • »21.09.16 - 09:10
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
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    > I don't think that the X1000 was expected to be a commercial success by anyone.

    I expected at least a break even target. When Trevor later revealed he was not going to recoup NRE costs, I was very surprised, and I remember others were as well.

    > there is no evidence that A-Eon made any money from X1000 sales, regardless
    > of development costs. From comments Trevor has made from time to time, the
    > impression I have gotten is that he was losing money on every X1000 sale

    The impression I got was that the turning point was when the PA6T unit price almost doubled from 500 to 975 USD (before it went down to 600 USD again), and the price increase was not passed on to the customer (see comment #54).

    > I [...] was surprised that Trevor wanted to continue producing AmigaOne
    > hardware (which sadly also has almost zero chance of recouping development
    > costs), once he had his own X1000 in his hands.

    He announced his plans for follow-up systems way before he got his own X1000, so I was not surprised about that. Regarding the recouping of NRE costs for the new boards, is there a public statement on this that I missed? So far, Trevor has said in public (e.g. AmiWest 2012) that he indeed intends to recoup NRE costs with follow-up systems to the X1000.

    > I wonder who is paying the Hyperion Entertainment developers to port AmigaOS4.1FE
    > to the X5000 and Tabor boards?

    I think the Hyperion developers are being paid by Hyperion for this, and Hyperion in turn is being paid by A-Eon for this. Historically, it was a fixed amount (20,000 EUR a decade ago) that Hyperion requested for an OS4 port to any PPC board. I don't know if that's still the case.

    > I must assume that A-Eon is not in charge of, or paying developers for doing the
    > porting work, or it would have been done sooner than now.

    A-Eon is surely not paying the developers directly, yes, else A-Eon wouldn't point to Hyperion everytime they are asked about the status of OS4 porting to A-Eon's boards/systems.
  • »21.09.16 - 10:12
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    But that's just me :-)


    Yep, just you. You keep thinking that way.
    After all, we all have to live with ourselves, and I'm comfortable.

    In the meanwhile, if we're done.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.09.16 - 10:33
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    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    ...Edit: Hyperion Entertainment also does not have the funds or developers to complete AmigaOS4.2 at all (or at least it seems that way).


    Speculative, but quite possibly true.
    And if they did, would anyone get it as a free upgrade (like Aeon customers)?

    I do share your opinion on Trevor's financial gain (or lack thereof).
    He's paying Varisys well for their role, and the entire project has been totally professional.
    Quite a nice change for the AmigaOne market.

    Also the third party additions he's sponsoring for OS4.1 are shaping up nicely.

    The question I have been pondering is, does Hyperion deserve all the criticism it gets over its slow delivery and inability to finance the development of future versions of AmigaOS?

    If you look at it from a strictly economic sense, they haven't made much money on this and they are still persistently pushing forward. If the aren't generating the funds they need to move faster, who is at fault?

    Not everybody can afford Trevor Dickenson's level of commitment.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.09.16 - 10:48
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    KennyR
    Posts: 272 from 2003/3/4
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    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    ...Edit: Hyperion Entertainment also does not have the funds or developers to complete AmigaOS4.2 at all (or at least it seems that way).


    Speculative, but quite possibly true.
    And if they did, would anyone get it as a free upgrade (like Aeon customers)?

    I do share your opinion on Trevor's financial gain (or lack thereof).
    He's paying Varisys well for their role, and the entire project has been totally professional.
    Quite a nice change for the AmigaOne market.


    Trevor didn't supply the X1000 project with his own altruism. There was a reason (beyond the CPU) that the X1000 was so expensive, and that's that Trevor took no risks on it at all. He didn't take the risk of underselling and so made no savings on economy of scale. They were made in the most expensive way possible, practically to order.

    I don't get why Trevor's seen as the great philanthropist here. He started the project, managed the project, but didn't put anything else of himself into the project. He was careful to avoid all risks to himself and confine them to the purchaser alone, to-wit the purchasers ended up with nigh-on unsupported product for megabucks.

    Quote:

    Also the third party additions he's sponsoring for OS4.1 are shaping up nicely.

    The question I have been pondering is, does Hyperion deserve all the criticism it gets over its slow delivery and inability to finance the development of future versions of AmigaOS?


    Yep. Yup. YES.
    Absolutely.

    Hyperion took advantage of contemporary looseness of labour laws regarding sub-contractors (a situation that no longer exists). They kept driving a product when its sales failed to meet a fraction of expectations. They allowed themselves to be conned by Amiga Inc and put themselves into deep debt hopelessly fighting a lawsuit they believed they could win. And most of all, they failed to keep the userbase aware of their problems, instead driving them on and on with MAPs and announcements of announcements.

    Hyperion are absolutely totally to blame.

    Quote:

    If you look at it from a strictly economic sense, they haven't made much money on this and they are still persistently pushing forward. If the aren't generating the funds they need to move faster, who is at fault?

    Not everybody can afford Trevor Dickenson's level of commitment.




    And not everyone can be as much as a psychotically stubborn arse as Ben Hermans.
  • »21.09.16 - 22:47
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Trevor paid a lot of money up front to Varisys to design the X1000.
    So you know NOTHING about risk.
    Money that didn't even start to come back for a really long time.
    And late in that board's production, he ate the increase in cpu costs.

    Hyperion's settlement with Amiga Inc, WAS a win.

    And calling somebody psychotic in a public forum is slander.
    And btw, whether you like him or not, slandering a lawyer is pretty STUPID.

    Don't reinforce the negative viewpoint OS4 users already have of our community.

    Also, Hyperion's subcontractors, the Friedens, would now appear to own some parts of OS4.
    Not bad for a part time job.

    And as to whether Hyperion has made enough money to continue on the course they've set, there is one thing I'd agree with Trevor about, Herman's is pretty persistent, because if it was a purely economic decision, any sensible businessman would have shucked you Amiga head cases long ago.
    You expect too much for too little.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.09.16 - 00:10
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