MorphZone

Cloanto sues Hyperion

Jim

# 976
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

BTW - Could you post links I can actually click on? This kind of crap makes me dig out my laptop so I can cut and paste it.

https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/147/1.html

Page 5, at the top.

Quote:

Does Hyperion's license originate from the original corporation or the Delaware corporation?

Hyperion's current license comes from "the Settlement Agreement", which takes all these various Amiga parties in account.

Quote:

Now that they have created 4.1 does 3.1 really matter?

Because they are selling 3.1 (and earlier) versions, which their counterparts believe is a breach of the Agreement (which is violated in numerous other ways in the same process).

Quote:

Because let's face it, there's very little if any 3.1 code in 4.1.

OS4 is built upon 3.1 IP. Point is "the Settlement Agreement" is about this, to grant them the right to use 3.1 for creating 4.x, question is whether they have breached this contract in such ways that it could be nullified. OS4 can't exist without those granted rights to 3.1. And 3.1 can not "be removed" from 4.x either, it's forever copyright contaminated.

Quote:

It's probably what led Ben to quote such a short time when the project was announced. Instead it took years to create.
Quote:

You're all primed to see Hyperion's downfall. I'd rather see AmigaOS in their hands then Amiga Inc's, and I'm none too sure of Cloanto.

The original plan was to only do a limited number of smallish developments as consultant work for Amiga Inc. The work was clearly listed in the original contract. The time frame for this was very reasonable, a couple of months (six). It was not much development really, absolutely not to create a new complete OS, only some key components on top of current 3.1 (or 3.9 really, but that should turn out to be out of reach because Haage&Partner had that one). For this they should receive a reasonable amount of $25,000.

Amiga Inc should still own the OS, including the newly developed components, this development was purely consultant work by Hyperion on Amiga's behalf.

Everything fine so far, except Hyperion didn't come back after a few months to deliver the contracted work to Amiga, instead they kept going for years and years, building an OS for themselves that went far beyond the contracted work and they had no intention whatsoever to hand it over to Amiga Inc.

The contract had stipulated that upon the work being finished (which would take six months as per the contract), Hyperion should hand over the work to Amiga and Amiga Inc should pay the $25,000. This was in 2001. In 2004 Hyperion started to sell the OS as it was theirs (all online communications also suggested they owned it), but carefully not calling it a finished product (which would make them hand over the work to Amiga and collect the $25,000 for their contracted work). No, instead they called it "OS4 pre-release". Then came "pre-release 2". And over the years "3" and "4" as well.

Then came the first lawsuit from Amiga, which Hyperion managed to win (yes, a "settlement" with those terms is a victory) because of the dead state Amiga Inc was at that time. This whole process is what's being called "The Robbery of Amiga OS". At the end, Hyperion was granted ownership of the "OS4 part" while the Amiga parties would continue own "3.1". Which now Hyperion is going for as well.

It's like you hire a contractor carpenter to build a fence around your house. You say to the carpenter, "it's OK to use these 3.1 construction materials I have at this other house". You both agree with the specific work to be done, decide on a time frame, and a fair payment.

Then the carpenter builds your fence partly using your "3.1" building materials. But he doesn't come back to you when it's done. No, instead he spends years and years to also build a complete house, that he later tries to claim ownership of. And not only that, the carpenter also claims the rights to your 3.1 beyond using it as source of building materials and start developing that further and making money on that as well, despite the fact that this is *your* product. But not only that, he comes after you aggressively on your other domains, trying to destroy your business by attacking your trademarks for other products that you have had for two decades, etc.

All this from an original contract to build a simple fence.

Ben Hermans and Hyperion is like a Psychopath Cancer with HIV. Everything they touch or comes near dies. If it isn't contractual robberies, then it's robbery of individual developers through "NDA-agreement" schemes.

They need to die a horrible death, fast, and be removed from the Amiga body.

Quote:

Ideally, AmigaOS would be donated to public domain and we could take it upon ourselves to advance AmigaOS. But since that isn't happening

Post #2:

https://amigaworld.net//modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42002&forum=2

Actually, quite a long time ago I posted that their inclusion of 1.3 was probably their biggest mistake, and one they are likely to be faulted on.
3.1.4 is not 3.1, its derived from 3.1 and therefore is within the rights derived from their license.

And that quote about "Amiga Parties" is really vague. Consent from one is adequate?

Hyperion must die a quick, horrible death, eh?

With that death, OS4 also dies, unless Amiga Inc. and Cloanto agree to allow someone like Aeon to aquire the rights to the license. And then they would have to license all the components that belong to third parties.

Alternately, Cloanto could obtain the license. After all, they can now license the trademark Amiga, not just AmigaOne.

But again, does this matter to US?
Bill Buck tried to secure a license to call MorphOS AmigaOS.
It didn't happen, and even he isn't as vitriolic about Ben Hermans and Hyperion as some of you are.

We have our OS. We have advantages over OS4, and we have a roadmap for the future that doesn't include weaker models than those that have already been built.

So who really gives a f**k about OS4, Hyperion, or Amiga?
My only interest is that I actually LIKE 3.1.4.

But my hobbyist interests? MorphOS, NitrOS9, and FPGAs (a small group of us are now exploring the Motorola RMS chipset which offers features similar to the Amiga).

I've exchanged messages with Bill Buck, Treavor Dickenson, and Ben Hermans. The only one that won't respond is Bill McEwen.
And you're all placing your faith in Cloanto, which has never really produced anything new on it's own, and a shady deal with the afore to mentioned Mr. McEwen.

Your making statements about business law, but how many of you actually have any first person knowledge or education about the law?

I have, I have a BS in Business Management. I'm about to enter an MBA program, and the instructor for my Business Law course was a local judge.

Herman's hasn't done anything too egregious, and he did do what he set out to do, create and release OS4.
And he wrestled the rights out from Amiga Inc's hands with a rather cleverly worded contract.
And make no mistake, Amiga Inc was our biggest deficit.

Aeon and Hyperion are actually producing products, Amiga Inc NEVER did.

And some of you place your faith in a deal between Amiga Inc and Cloanto.

Foolish...just plain foolish.

Just support our developers, STFU about this entire OS4 mess, and enjoy what you have.

Addendum - On transfer of the license to develop from 3.1, why hasn't anyone mentioned the clause that "consent shall not be unreasonably witheld".
So, on what basis could the Amiga parties legitamately reject a transfer of rights that didn't involve pure adversarial prejudice?

[ Edited by Jim 26.06.2019 - 21:14 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»26.06.19 - 12:23

ASiegel

# 977
Posts: 1399 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

Jim wrote:
Your making statements about business law, but how many of you actually have any first person knowledge or education about the law?

I have, I have a BS in Business Management.

You almost certainly vastly overestimate your knowledge about the law. Even if you had a Bachelor degree in Legal Studies, you would still lack the highly specialized knowledge regarding corporate and contract law to have a truly informed opinion on the cases that are being debated here.

Quote:

the instructor for my Business Law course was a local judge.

Attending entry level courses as part of obtaining a business degree does not transfer his comprehensive knowledge about the law to you.
»26.06.19 - 15:44

KennyR

# 978
Priest of the Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 903 from 2003/3/4

From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...

To be fair, even lawyers have differences in opinion and interpretation. And by commenting in any internet forum you are implicitly admitting that your post is opinion and not a professionally qualified opinion anyway.

But it's worth nothing that there is one major difference in US law compared to European law: US law is based on precedent. The outcome of a case is almost always based upon the outcome of a similar one. That (for the most part, anyway) isn't true in Europe, where every case tends to be considered as standalone.

I only found out yesterday that judges in US county courts are voted for by laymen rather than selected for by peers for their skills. Mind blown.
»26.06.19 - 16:20

ASiegel

# 979
Posts: 1399 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

KennyR wrote:
To be fair, even lawyers have differences in opinion and interpretation.

Of course. There is the old joke that if you ask two economists a question, you will hear three opinions.

This certainly applies to matters of the law as well, which is why arguing that basic law courses make you qualified to judge highly specialized law cases just means you simply do not know enough about the topic to understand how much there is you do not know.

Quote:

I only found out yesterday that judges in US county courts are voted for by laymen rather than selected for by peers for their skills. Mind blown.

I did know that but what I did not know before I just checked is that you do not even have to have been a practicing lawyer to get elected. Mind blown indeed.
»26.06.19 - 16:37

Jim

# 980
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Actually, US law IS based on precedents, as is British Common Law.

And the fact that this case is being tried in the US is quite salient.

As to my experience with US law, I can assure you it's better than most of the other posters here.

Further, Common Law makes far more sense to me than allowing rulings based on whatever matters the judge rules as important.
Simply stated, it's more even handed and fair.

Also, unlike the Europeans posting here, I have access to US lawyers (and other experts including my former instructors).

Frankly, while we may be polarized in this matter, I feel that countries basing their legal rulings on Common Law have a superior, solid base for the rulings our systems make.

That said, I see no real merit in the legal case against Hyperion.
In fact, Cloanto was selling OS3.X before it supposedly obtained ownership of Amiga OS.
This violated Hyperion's legal right to be the sole entity to develop from OS3.1.

Cloanto's license entitled them to vend kickstart roms and OS files, it did not entitle them to modify those files.

Should Hyperion choose to pursue this, Cloanto is the party that is likely to lose.

This entire situation is a scam, where Cloanto and Amiga Inc. have colluded in an attempt to regain rights that Amiga Inc. forfeited.

Don't like Ben Herman's? That isn't an issue, contract law is. Apparently virtually none of you is familiar with how contract law works in the US, and it isn't some vague concept as it appears to be in many parts of Europe.
It's quite literal, and isn't open to interpretation.
That's how Herman's gained control of OS4 and the sole right to develop from 3.1.

And no business contracts that are created after that agreement can alter prior agreements.

So why don't you all stop posting comments based on sentiment, because again, that's not an issue in US adjudication.

[ Edited by Jim 26.06.2019 - 15:00 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»26.06.19 - 16:58

Jim

# 981
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

Jim wrote:
Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

BTW - Could you post links I can actually click on? This kind of crap makes me dig out my laptop so I can cut and paste it.

https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/147/1.html

Page 5, at the top.

Quote:

Does Hyperion's license originate from the original corporation or the Delaware corporation?

Hyperion's current license comes from "the Settlement Agreement", which takes all these various Amiga parties in account.

Quote:

Now that they have created 4.1 does 3.1 really matter?

Because they are selling 3.1 (and earlier) versions, which their counterparts believe is a breach of the Agreement (which is violated in numerous other ways in the same process).

Quote:

Because let's face it, there's very little if any 3.1 code in 4.1.

OS4 is built upon 3.1 IP. Point is "the Settlement Agreement" is about this, to grant them the right to use 3.1 for creating 4.x, question is whether they have breached this contract in such ways that it could be nullified. OS4 can't exist without those granted rights to 3.1. And 3.1 can not "be removed" from 4.x either, it's forever copyright contaminated.

Quote:

It's probably what led Ben to quote such a short time when the project was announced. Instead it took years to create.
Quote:

You're all primed to see Hyperion's downfall. I'd rather see AmigaOS in their hands then Amiga Inc's, and I'm none too sure of Cloanto.

The original plan was to only do a limited number of smallish developments as consultant work for Amiga Inc. The work was clearly listed in the original contract. The time frame for this was very reasonable, a couple of months (six). It was not much development really, absolutely not to create a new complete OS, only some key components on top of current 3.1 (or 3.9 really, but that should turn out to be out of reach because Haage&Partner had that one). For this they should receive a reasonable amount of $25,000.

Amiga Inc should still own the OS, including the newly developed components, this development was purely consultant work by Hyperion on Amiga's behalf.

Everything fine so far, except Hyperion didn't come back after a few months to deliver the contracted work to Amiga, instead they kept going for years and years, building an OS for themselves that went far beyond the contracted work and they had no intention whatsoever to hand it over to Amiga Inc.

The contract had stipulated that upon the work being finished (which would take six months as per the contract), Hyperion should hand over the work to Amiga and Amiga Inc should pay the $25,000. This was in 2001. In 2004 Hyperion started to sell the OS as it was theirs (all online communications also suggested they owned it), but carefully not calling it a finished product (which would make them hand over the work to Amiga and collect the $25,000 for their contracted work). No, instead they called it "OS4 pre-release". Then came "pre-release 2". And over the years "3" and "4" as well.

Then came the first lawsuit from Amiga, which Hyperion managed to win (yes, a "settlement" with those terms is a victory) because of the dead state Amiga Inc was at that time. This whole process is what's being called "The Robbery of Amiga OS". At the end, Hyperion was granted ownership of the "OS4 part" while the Amiga parties would continue own "3.1". Which now Hyperion is going for as well.

It's like you hire a contractor carpenter to build a fence around your house. You say to the carpenter, "it's OK to use these 3.1 construction materials I have at this other house". You both agree with the specific work to be done, decide on a time frame, and a fair payment.

Then the carpenter builds your fence partly using your "3.1" building materials. But he doesn't come back to you when it's done. No, instead he spends years and years to also build a complete house, that he later tries to claim ownership of. And not only that, the carpenter also claims the rights to your 3.1 beyond using it as source of building materials and start developing that further and making money on that as well, despite the fact that this is *your* product. But not only that, he comes after you aggressively on your other domains, trying to destroy your business by attacking your trademarks for other products that you have had for two decades, etc.

All this from an original contract to build a simple fence.

Ben Hermans and Hyperion is like a Psychopath Cancer with HIV. Everything they touch or comes near dies. If it isn't contractual robberies, then it's robbery of individual developers through "NDA-agreement" schemes.

They need to die a horrible death, fast, and be removed from the Amiga body.

Quote:

Ideally, AmigaOS would be donated to public domain and we could take it upon ourselves to advance AmigaOS. But since that isn't happening

Post #2:

https://amigaworld.net//modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42002&forum=2

Actually, quite a long time ago I posted that their inclusion of 1.3 was probably their biggest mistake, and one they are likely to be faulted on.
3.1.4 is not 3.1, its derived from 3.1 and therefore is within the rights derived from their license.

And that quote about "Amiga Parties" is really vague. Consent from one is adequate?

Hyperion must die a quick, horrible death, eh?

With that death, OS4 also dies, unless Amiga Inc. and Cloanto agree to allow someone like Aeon to aquire the rights to the license. And then they would have to license all the components that belong to third parties.

Alternately, Cloanto could obtain the license. After all, they can now license the trademark Amiga, not just AmigaOne.

But again, does this matter to US?
Bill Buck tried to secure a license to call MorphOS AmigaOS.
It didn't happen, and even he isn't as vitriolic about Ben Hermans and Hyperion as some of you are.

We have our OS. We have advantages over OS4, and we have a roadmap for the future that doesn't include weaker models than those that have already been built.

So who really gives a f**k about OS4, Hyperion, or Amiga?
My only interest is that I actually LIKE 3.1.4.

But my hobbyist interests? MorphOS, NitrOS9, and FPGAs (a small group of us are now exploring the Motorola RMS chipset which offers features similar to the Amiga).

I've exchanged messages with Bill Buck, Treavor Dickenson, and Ben Hermans. The only one that won't respond is Bill McEwen.
And you're all placing your faith in Cloanto, which has never really produced anything new on own it's own, and a shady deal with the afore to mentioned Mr. McEwen.

Your making statements about business law, but how many of you actually have any first person knowledge or education about the law?

I have, I have a BS in Business Management. I'm about to enter an MBA program, and the instructor for my Business Law course was a local judge.

Herman's hasn't done anything too egregious, and he did do what he set out to do, create and release OS4.
And he wrestled the rights out from Amiga Inc's hands with a rather cleverly worded contract.
And make no mistake, Amiga Inc was our biggest deficit.

Aeon and Hyperion are actually producing products, Amiga Inc NEVER did.

And some of you place your faith in a deal between Amiga Inc and Cloanto.

Foolish...just plain foolish.

Just support our developers, STFU about this entire OS4 mess, and enjoy what you have.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»26.06.19 - 20:49

amigadave

# 982
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2795 from 2006/3/21

From: Northern Calif...

Quote:

Jim wrote:
This entire situation is a scam, where Cloanto and Amiga Inc. have colluded in an attempt to regain rights that Amiga Inc. forfeited.

One, it is laughable that you call this attempt by Cloanto a scam, to fight Hyperion's attempt to expand its own rights, beyond developing AmigaOS4, which even Hyperion admitted was all they had obtained from the settlement at one point in time, when Hyperion was (and appears to continue to do so) the biggest scam artist in Amiga history, when Ben Hermans orchestrated what certainly looks like a well thought out plan to steal AmigaOS from Amiga Inc., by never finishing and delivering AmigaOS4 as contracted, knowing full well how the contract was written, giving Hyperion the rights to AmigaOS, if Amiga Inc. were to dissolve, or become bankrupt. In all of its legal battles, Hyperion has been the aggressor, not some poor company just fighting for its rights against others who are attacking them.

Two, Amiga Inc. only forfeited the rights to AmgiaOS4 and the AmigaOne trademark, because they had no financial means to continue the fight, where Ben Hermans, acting as his own legal counsel, could file as many motions and counter suits as he liked, at little cost, but his time and filing fees. I believe that if Amiga Inc. had the financial backing, they would have certainly won the suit against Hyperion, and retained the rights to AmigaOS4, but we will never know. We will also never know what Amiga Inc. would have done after the initial port to PPC, but they could hardly do any worse than Hyperion has done over the last several years. Again, we will never know. Both Bill McEwen and Ben Hermans have been detrimental to the Amiga community, and knowing what I know today, I think I would have rather rolled the dice and taken our chances with Amiga Inc. and Bill McEwen et al, than suffer through the miserable failures in development of Hyperion.

Quote:

Don't like Ben Herman's? That isn't an issue, contract law is. Apparently virtually none of you is familiar with how contract law works in the US, and it isn't some vague concept as it appears to be in many parts of Europe.
It's quite literal, and isn't open to interpretation.
That's how Herman's gained control of OS4 and the sole right to develop from 3.1.

Again, Ben Hermans did not gain control of AmigaOS4 through any legal victory, he just took advantage of a company that had no financial means to fight his sneaky attack on their legal rights.

Quote:

And no business contracts that are created after that agreement can alter prior agreements.

Unless the Settlement Agreement by which Hyperion obtained (stole in my opinion) the rights to AmigaOS4, is completely voided, due to breach of contract, or some other reason that the court agrees with.

Quote:

So why don't you all stop posting comments based on sentiment, because again, that's not an issue in US adjudication.

From the tone and length of your arguments in this thread, and asking us all to "STFU", I would say we are not the only ones who are expressing sentiment. We all agree that it is up to the courts to sort out eventually, unless another settlement agreement is made before a legal judgement is finalized, but I hope that is not the case, and we really see what the courts, and a jury think about this case, or these cases.

Have a great day Jim!

[ Edited by amigadave 26.06.2019 - 19:00 ]
MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
»26.06.19 - 23:57

Jim

# 983
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

amigadave wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:
This entire situation is a scam, where Cloanto and Amiga Inc. have colluded in an attempt to regain rights that Amiga Inc. forfeited.

One, it is laughable that you call this attempt by Cloanto a scam, to fight Hyperion's attempt to expand its own rights, beyond developing AmigaOS4, which even Hyperion admitted was all they had obtained from the settlement at one point in time, when Hyperion was (and appears to continue to do so) the biggest scam artist in Amiga history, when Ben Hermans orchestrated what certainly looks like a well thought out plan to steal AmigaOS from Amiga Inc., by never finishing and delivering AmigaOS4 as contracted, knowing full well how the contract was written, giving Hyperion the rights to AmigaOS, if Amiga Inc. were to dissolve, or become bankrupt. In all of its legal battles, Hyperion has been the aggressor, not some poor company just fighting for its rights against others who are attacking them.

Two, Amiga Inc. only forfeited the rights to AmgiaOS4 and the AmigaOne trademark, because they had no financial means to continue the fight, where Ben Hermans, acting as his own legal counsel, could file as many motions and counter suits as he liked, at little cost, but his time and filing fees. I believe that if Amiga Inc. had the financial backing, they would have certainly won the suit against Hyperion, and retained the rights to AmigaOS4, but we will never know. We will also never know what Amiga Inc. would have done after the initial port to PPC, but they could hardly do any worse than Hyperion has done over the last several years. Again, we will never know. Both Bill McEwen and Ben Hermans have been detrimental to the Amiga community, and knowing what I know today, I think I would have rather rolled the dice and taken our chances with Amiga Inc. and Bill McEwen et al, than suffer through the miserable failures in development of Hyperion.

Quote:

Don't like Ben Herman's? That isn't an issue, contract law is. Apparently virtually none of you is familiar with how contract law works in the US, and it isn't some vague concept as it appears to be in many parts of Europe.
It's quite literal, and isn't open to interpretation.
That's how Herman's gained control of OS4 and the sole right to develop from 3.1.

Again, Ben Hermans did not gain control of AmigaOS4 through any legal victory, he just took advantage of a company that had no financial means to fight his sneaky attack on their legal rights.

Quote:

And no business contracts that are created after that agreement can alter prior agreements.

Unless the Settlement Agreement by which Hyperion obtained (stole in my opinion) the rights to AmigaOS4, is completely voided, due to breach of contract, or some other reason that the court agrees with.

Quote:

So why don't you all stop posting comments based on sentiment, because again, that's not an issue in US adjudication.

From the tone and length of your arguments in this thread, and asking us all to "STFU", I would say we are not the only ones who are expressing sentiment. We all agree that it is up to the courts to sort out eventually, unless another settlement agreement is made before a legal judgement is finalized, but I hope that is not the case, and we really see what the courts, and a jury think about this case, or these cases.

Have a great day Jim!

Hi Dave,
The statements were meant to be inflamatory.
But Bill McEwen is a con artist.
Ben Herman's is a lawyer (enough said right there).
And Cloanto has done little except repackage public domain software with licensed roms and OS files.

The settlement between the Amiga parties and Hyperion could be voided. The terms are in the agreement. But again. Where would that leave OS4? Since it's a composite of licensed files, it would be dead in the water.

Further don't like the STFU comment?
Personally I'm not too keen on a bunch of unknowledgable Europeans attacking my knowledge of business law, as I've managed businesses, sub contracted, and owned my own businesses.

Before I even entered the University I received my BS from I had 180 credits earned at the University of Delaware and at one time I acted as an independant IT consultant for several local business.
I've built and maintained POS systems, systems used in business management and accounting.

I know how contracts work, because I've worked under them and created others defining my business relationship with other parties.

Yes, Amiga Inc. was an assetless mess. In Europe they wouldn't have been allowed to conduct business.

McEwen in my opinion is a delusional, narcissistic, sociopath.

He did lose, and he deserved to lose, as he did not have the resources to create new products, or advance the OS that was created.

Anyone that thinks that Amiga Inc's retention of OS4 would have benefited the community is a fool.

That said, Hyperion's glacially slow development pace has also been very detrimental.

My core point is, why are we even discussing this?

We are using the OS that should have been OS4.
And our limited focus on a hobbyist market has now relegated us to second place behind an inferior competitor.

Again, we need to stop concerning ourselves with this crap and focus on MorphOS. Because there are no white knights in the Amiga community. Mike certainly isn't one.

And Treavor's latest misstep with Tabor is beginning to make me question his judgement.

You know who I do trust?
The developers in our community that I have been in contact with. Good people, when this split occurred many of the most talented programmers went with MorphOS.

The only OS4 coder I have contact with is Hans de Ruiter, he's a sharp guy.

But this is a MorphOS forum and we DO need to STFU about OS4.
It just makes us look bad involving ourselves in their drama.
And the entire situation is a badly written comedy.

So, if I've offended anyone, well that was kind of the intention.
I lost out once in the early '90s while building 68K systems (about the time IBM and Microsoft released Win3.0).
I'm still a little sore about that, and I blame a lot of the parties in the 68K community for not putting up a more unified front and not investing enough to fight back.
Because we had superior systems.

And now we are a dysfunctional community with an excess of eccentric fanatics.

So how about we focus on our part of the community?
And leave the drama to "the real" Amigans (as if that was really what they are, instead of a steadily dwindling group of increasing strange individuals).

BTW - I'm not trying to offend you guys, just rattle your cages a bit.
Your too wrapped up in crap that really does not concern us.

Take care, David.

[ Edited by Jim 27.06.2019 - 09:36 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 10:51

Kronos

# 984
Moderator

Posts: 2589 from 2003/2/24

3000000 lines of blah blah blah but in the end the facts are clear:

a)In 2001 Hyperion signed a deal they never planned to uphold in it's full extend (nor had the means to) hoping they could pull one on Amino based on a rather sketchy clause.
Since then they have failed to pay contractors, have their business licence renewed and were declared bankrupt atleast once.

b)In 2001 Amino signed a deal they never planned to uphold in it's full extend (nor had the means to) hoping they could pull one on Hyperion based on a rather sketchy clause.
Since then they have failed to pay contractors, have their business licence renewed and were declared bankrupt atleast once.

c)When those 2 tried to fight it out the judge flew them the bird and forced them to sign another sketchy agreement instead

d)Cloanto created product based parts they had a licence to or owned and advertised it as exactly what it is/was.

e)Anybody who claim to know the outcome is a fool. Even if the case was somehow crystal clear.

[ Edited by Kronos 27.06.2019 - 15:45 ]
»27.06.19 - 11:42

redrumloa

# 985
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

@jim

Quote:

My core point is, why are we even discussing this?

By your own admission you were never an Amiga 68k user. Some of us have followed the "Amiga" closely since the prototype was mentioned in magazines in 1984. Some of us even still own 68k Amigas. While MorphOS may be our only NG adoption, after ~35 years of following the "Amiga", we have at least a morbid curiosity what happens to the IP. For those of us still actively using 68k Amiga(s) the future of the original (real) Amiga OS is kinda important. Just like we don't like seeing a fake MUI get bastardized, we don't want similar for the OS.
»27.06.19 - 13:28

Jim

# 986
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Kronos, Jim,
You know I respect both of your opinions.
The reason I didn't own an Amiga in the '80s (although I was quite familiar with it) is because I was involved in a company that was building it's own 68K based systems.
Kronos has probably summed this up better than I could.

Two sides, both rotten.
But if Mike wants to deal with the devil, he's just aligned himself with the least productive of the two.

McEwen is a disease. And the only real outcome that can come from working with him is an increase in dysfunction.

Meanwhile, we're on the cusp of yet another metamorphosis.
So again, why this fascination with our melodramatic Amigan brethren?

We are going to dust their clock if we just have the resources to do it.
We definately have the talent.

I don't see these lawsuits going anywhere.

And I've seen a copy of 3.12.
WE have a future. They...are f**ked up.
It's that simple.

BTW - We can blame "fake" MUI on one of our own developers. But finding him (and his damned bicycle) can be rather difficult.

Oh, and my apologies to my European friends for any disparaging comments about their legal or political systems. The majority of their countries aren't run by a lunatic like ours is, and they aren't building concentration camps for illegal aliens.

[ Edited by Jim 27.06.2019 - 12:21 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 14:10

amigadave

# 987
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2795 from 2006/3/21

From: Northern Calif...

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
@jim

Quote:

My core point is, why are we even discussing this?

By your own admission you were never an Amiga 68k user. Some of us have followed the "Amiga" closely since the prototype was mentioned in magazines in 1984. Some of us even still own 68k Amigas. While MorphOS may be our only NG adoption, after ~35 years of following the "Amiga", we have at least a morbid curiosity what happens to the IP. For those of us still actively using 68k Amiga(s) the future of the original (real) Amiga OS is kinda important. Just like we don't like seeing a fake MUI get bastardized, we don't want similar for the OS.

I have to say I agree with all of the above Jim, even though I rarely agree with most of what redrumloa writes on these forums. Even though I did not purchase my first Amiga (a used A1000) until early 1986, I had been following the Amiga since the first magazine article came out in 1984. I "AM" interested in what happens to the IP copyrights, and the trademarks. I "WOULD" like to see a future computer product, either retro, or NG (if it is good), with the Amiga name on it again, just for sentimental reasons. It was so far ahead of the competition when it was first released, I was dumbfounded that Commodore could not capitalize on its strengths and gain more market share, enough to pull themselves out of the financial problems they had created for themselves.

Yes, MorphOS should have been AmigaOS4, and yes, this is a MorphOS forum, not an Amiga forum, but this is not the first thread, and won't be the last, that discusses Amiga topics, so if you aren't interested, don't read this thread. As for not liking the backlash from some, regarding your U.S. law knowledge, I understand your feelings, and though you may be right about how a judge interprets this case, a jury may come to a very different decision about who is in the right, and who is doing wrong.

I also agree with Kronos comparisons between Amino and Hyperion. Between the Amiga Inc. parties, and Hyperion, there are no "Good Guys", they are all crooks in my opinion. I don't view Mike B. that way, and perhaps you would give him more credit, if you researched his past work in the community more carefully, starting with the obviously biased recent interview. Mike has made money from Amiga Forever no doubt, but I believe that he has barely recouped the money he has spent acquiring licenses for all of the Amiga software he has obtained. He (like everyone else in the Amiga marketplace) certainly isn't getting rich from his efforts, and I trust his motives FAR more than those of Ben Hermans. My comments above regarding hindsight, and being willing to bet that Bill McEwen couldn't have done worse than Hyperion in further developing AmigaOS4 aren't an endorsement of the man himself, but after he saw that he couldn't "con" any new investors, and all he had left was the good will and interest of the remaining Amiga computer users, he finally realized that getting AmigaOS4 created was his only remaining option to make any money from the Amiga IP copyrights and trademarks. Bill McEwen would have done the same as Hyperion, and leaned heavily on the community to provide help in moving AmigaOS4 forward, so I see little difference in how it would have played out, but given what we now know about Ben Hermans, I doubt Bill McEwen could have been any worse.

If, and this is a very big "IF", Mike B. is able to win this case and obtains all the rights to AmigaOS4, and all the rest, I don't see it being "dead in the water", he will just have to do the same thing he has been doing for years, by going to each individual developer who has contributed to OS4, and obtain a license from them for their contributions. I think many of them will work with Mike B., give him a chance to see what he can do with the OS, but many of them will never work for Hyperion or Ben Hermans again. I think that anyone who signs a contract with Ben Hermans is a, as you put it "FOOL".

Lastly, I do agree that many posts in this thread have been too emotional, and irrational, which has clouded the judgement of the poster, and caused them to make some statements that are not well thought out, but I just ignore them now and wait for posts that have real information regarding the case, I suggest you do the same, or as I previously wrote, just ignore this entire thread.
MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
»27.06.19 - 14:21

number6

# 988
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 495 from 2008/8/10

@amigadave

Quote:

but I just ignore them now and wait for posts that have real information regarding the case

Since my prior posting is quite a ways back in this thread now, I'll just repeat that the current issue is the National Bank, as it was clearly listed as one of 4 categories causing delay.
I don't expect more news about the lawsuit(s) to come before this issue is put to rest.

#6
»27.06.19 - 14:59

Andreas_Wolf

# 989
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12578 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> There's this ongoing myth that you can just recompile code
> from one ISA to another.

That's not a myth but a fact, assuming the code is in a high-level language, there's a compatible compiler for both ISAs and the ISAs can operate in the same endianness, which is true for m68k and PPC.

> Instead it took years to create.

This was because Hyperion decided to not follow the 2001 agreement to basically "just recompile code from one ISA to another".

> Ideally, AmigaOS would be donated to public domain and we could
> take it upon ourselves to advance AmigaOS.

Wouldn't this require open source instead of "public domain"?

> Someone recently posted that Treavor Dickenson bought the Frieden's kernel.
> So Aeon owns the core of the OS?

No, see comments #735 and #742.

> Many other parts are licensed, but owned by other authors?

Yes.
»27.06.19 - 15:03

Jim

# 990
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

All valid, David.
And I am familiar with Mike.
He gave me a free copy of Amiga Forever several years ago.
So, in retrospect, he's certainly a better person than Bill or Ben.

But the likelyhood of him securing OS4 is slim.
He can license the Amiga name though.
And that is a nice change of circumstance, we haven't seen that since Commodore USA folded.

Further, I've been pretty vitriolic here myself. But we've been through this mill before. I was a member of the community when Herman's got his settlement (I'd been acquiring 68K based system for some time). And my A2000 is still working quite well, it's my opinion that the quality control on the older systems was better - this damned thing is battleship tough.

I really don't think Mike is going to win this, and he has opened himself up to a countersuit.

Oh, btw guys, while you were using your first Amigas, my company was discussing the RMS chipset with Motorola (we had access to their engineers, and frankly Motorola was light years above MOS, which really got off the ground by doing a knock off of the 6800).

Notice that Commodore, when pressed for something better than the MOS 6502 bought a design that used a Motorola processor instead.

This isn't really a case of "I was there before you".
I started out with SWTPC 6800 based hardware, moved to 6809 hardware (ignoring the 6502), and then dove straight into the 68K. I've always been in the Motorola camp.

It's you Commodore guys that joined us, not vice versa.
And btw, my company's 68000 and 68020 systems used Tseng Labs ET4000 video cards (on my recommendation - they had the highest bandwidth of any unaccelerated VGA card). So our graphics were better than yours, until you adopted RTG.

You know, there was more to the 68K community than the Amiga. Sure, Atari had inferior graphics, but they did build the first personal computer with a MIDI interface.
And the 68K was extensively used in process control and military applications.

We actually ported our GUI from a package created by Steve Adam's for Gespac (a company building a variety of 68K based SBCs).

Why didn't I buy an Amiga during the period I was working with the 68K? One, too damned expensive. Two, I wasn't interested in games. Three, the only company vending a port of the OS we were using on our systems wanted $2000 for a single computer license.

That was twice the price of our base (terminal) system, and a bit ridiculous.
Besides, when a large part of your business is POS systems. Who needs all the bells and whistles of the Amiga chipset?

It's a fun toy to play with now, but my primary interest is still MorphOS.
It still has the potential to become a viable commercial OS.

I don't see that happening with AmigaOS. Where AmigaOS might shine is in retro applications. I have a DE1, I'd like to add some other FPGA hardware to my collection.

Anyway, my apologies again for stirring up the hornet's nest. I understand the hard feelings considering the history of the platform.

But I'd hope we can move on from this, because it really is a dead issue.

Just as a side line, how many of you think OS4.2 will ever be completed (even though all Aeon customers are owed a copy).
And beyond that, do you really think there will be an OS5?

I'm pretty sure there will be a MorphOS4. Because our developers produce what they say they will.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 15:18

Andreas_Wolf

# 991
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12578 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> The original plan was to only do a limited number of smallish developments
> as consultant work for Amiga Inc. [...] this development was purely consultant
> work by Hyperion

I don't think programming is "consultant work".

> they called it "OS4 pre-release".

"Developer Pre-release" even.

> Then came "pre-release 2". And over the years "3" and "4" as well.

They called them "Developer Pre-release Update [2|3|4]".

> Then came the first lawsuit from Amiga

"Developer Pre-release Update 4" was followed by Amiga Inc. terminating the contract in December 2006, which was followed by release of "The Final Update" later the same month, and only then came the lawsuit in April 2007.

> Hyperion managed to win (yes, a "settlement" with those terms is a victory)

You mean the terms that you say are so badly defined that in reality Hyperion got nothing out of it? ;-)

> the Amiga parties would continue own "3.1". Which now Hyperion is going
> for as well. [...] the carpenter also claims the rights to your 3.1

Hyperion are not going for *owning* 3.1, at least. They know that the settlement agreement does not give them this.

> despite the fact that this is *your* product.

Going by the guilefully chosen words of the settlement agreement, OS3.1.4 is as much the Amiga Parties' or Cloanto's product as OS4 is.

> They need to die a horrible death, fast

I guess most people would think of a slow death as horrible, more so than of a fast one ;-)
»27.06.19 - 18:52

Jim

# 992
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Thanks for the injection of some sanity. Andreas.
Lord knows, I'm in short supply of that right now.

But one thing does seem obvious, Hyperion owns or at least holds licenses for the components of OS4 and OS3.1.4

I don't know if Hyperion deserves to die a slow painful death, after all, I come from a country where contractual subterfuge is normal, and I'm quite jaded.

From my perspective, Herman's (one con artist) had a better understanding of contractual clauses and business law than did McEwen (the other con artist).

But the products Hyperion control aren't that bad. After all, the work was done by fairly competant sub-contractors.

The work cleaning up 3.1 and creating 3.1.4 is actually pretty good.

I can't judge 4.1 as my programming days ended with the 68020.
And RISC cpus kind of baffle me, although I did explore MIPS a bit.
And Power is still a remarkable ISA.

I have really negative sentiments about X86 as the ISA really sucked until the i386 was introduced.

But as long as AMD keeps chipping away at Intel's near monopoly. And they've added so much to X64, I'm cool with it.

And hopefully that's where we are headed folks. I know a few of the developers prefer AMD (and we pretty much support AMD gpus to the exclusion of anything else outside of legacy hardware).

I know it pisses people off when I say I can't see Mike winning this, but consider the experience of his adversary.

Herman's may be evil, but he has a pretty good understanding of US law (especially for a Belgian).

Not to disparage Belgians, Mark's one of my favor programmers (ah hell, people in general) on the planet.

And when I think of Ralph, Frank, Jacek, Fab and the other developers I've come in contact with, I can't help but think we've got the better team.

So I guess I wish Mike so luck. he's going to need it.

[ Edited by Jim 27.06.2019 - 19:37 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 19:22

Andreas_Wolf

# 993
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12578 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> Bill Buck tried to secure a license to call MorphOS AmigaOS.

Any details?

> Cloanto [...] has never really produced anything new on it's own

PPaint anyone?

> Aeon and Hyperion are actually producing products, Amiga Inc NEVER did.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7509&forum=3&start=15

> STFU about this entire OS4 mess

May I suggest you do yourself the favour to simply stay out of this thread then? :-)
»27.06.19 - 20:01

Jim

# 994
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

I did forget about the Ppaint program Cloanto vended.

>Any details

I don't have your indexing ability, it was part of a document detailing the development of the Pegasos.

And I have heard that directly from the man (in a cell phone call last year, as Aaron from AOTL wanted to ask Bill's advice and I had to contact him to get his permission to give Aaron his phone number).

Do you doubt it happened?

At one point most of these parties were still all talking to one another.

This balkanization is a relatively new event(primarily post lawsuit).

>May I suggest...

Sure, you can suggest anything, but I'm as unlikely as you to follow that advice.

This contention was relatively normal with competing 68K platforms, but within the same community?

It isn't just dysfunctional, it borders on pathlogical.

Make you one deal though, I'll let up a little on Mike and Cloanto, even though I think they are really niave about what they are getting into.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 20:41

number6

# 995
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 495 from 2008/8/10

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
> Bill Buck tried to secure a license to call MorphOS AmigaOS.

Any details?

> Cloanto [...] has never really produced anything new on it's own

PPaint anyone?

> Aeon and Hyperion are actually producing products, Amiga Inc NEVER did.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7509&forum=3&start=15

> STFU about this entire OS4 mess

May I suggest you do yourself the favour to simply stay out of this thread then?

I don't want to bump the old thread, so re:your comment about Zico...
It is possible h/w designs refers to Adam Kowalczyk, better known perhaps as ACK.
Bill mentioned the relationship at a Pianeta Amiga through an .mp3 file played there.

#6
»27.06.19 - 20:50

Jim

# 996
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

>> There's this ongoing myth that you can just recompile code from one ISA to another.

>That's not a myth but a fact, assuming the code is in a high-level language, there's a compatible compiler for both ISAs and the ISAs can operate in the same endianness, which is true for m68k and PPC.

No, that is simply not true. I've ported software across platforms with the same ISA and had to overcome all sorts of architectural issues.
Across ISAs on hardware that bears no resemblance to the original platform?

Here you are definately out of your league, indexer.
It takes talent and a lot of documentation, and time.

Endian issues and available compatible C compilers are not an issue, but the fact that OS3.1 was not completely coded in C is.

That's why Hyperions offer to do this for only $25K was such a con.

As to the last post about ACK systems...vaporware, just an announcement, no prototypes.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 21:50

number6

# 997
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 495 from 2008/8/10

Quote:

Jim wrote:

As to the last post about ACK systems...vaporware, just an announcement, no prototypes.

Completely unrelated to what I mentioned. ACK made many announcements and talked of many plans.

What I refer to is a specific point in time when Bill McEwen announced that ACK was doing design work for Amiga Inc. There was never mention of him being involved with a prototype in that case, just designs.

#6
»27.06.19 - 22:04

Jim

# 998
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

number6 wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

As to the last post about ACK systems...vaporware, just an announcement, no prototypes.

Completely unrelated to what I mentioned. ACK made many announcements and talked of many plans.

What I refer to is a specific point in time when Bill McEwen announced that ACK was doing design work for Amiga Inc. There was never mention of him being involved with a prototype in that case, just designs.

#6

Actually, I wasn't aware of anything except the two proposed motherboard designs.
The higher end spec is somewhat similar to the X1000, but the Aeon system has slightly better specs.

Still, vaporware.
Design specs announced, by no proof that any work was completed.

I've always wondered why our developers supported the Acube SAM460, when Acube was intimately linked with Hyperion and OS4.
Sure, some of the boards went to industrial use or Linux aplications.
But the bulk went to OS4 users.

So the only reason we didn't support the X1000 was Ben Herman's direct involvement with the first iteration of Aeon?
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 22:42

number6

# 999
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 495 from 2008/8/10

Quote:

Jim wrote:

Actually, I wasn't aware of anything except the two proposed motherboard designs.

I think those were 2 of the best remembered "projects". You were thinking of PowerVixxen and PowerVixxenTL. (Thunder and Lightening)

Very early on there was an announcement of an accelerator, in the vein of Escena.
OS4 on Mac too, as he reported finding a large quantity of G3 boards for 20 USD a pop.
Virtual machines...
Partnership with Guru Meditation/Reflect and Troika.
He did work on the Eyetech line though and claimed to own the only existing MicroA1-I.
He also did computer repair for the Eyetech line.

He'd require a full chapter in a book, and we're way off-topic anyway. heh.

#6
»27.06.19 - 23:21

Jim

# 1000
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

number6 wrote:
Quote:

Jim wrote:

Actually, I wasn't aware of anything except the two proposed motherboard designs.

I think those were 2 of the best remembered "projects". You were thinking of PowerVixxen and PowerVixxenTL. (Thunder and Lightening)

Very early on there was an announcement of an accelerator, in the vein of Escena.
OS4 on Mac too, as he reported finding a large quantity of G3 boards for 20 USD a pop.
Virtual machines...
Partnership with Guru Meditation/Reflect and Troika.
He did work on the Eyetech line though and claimed to own the only existing MicroA1-I.
He also did computer repair for the Eyetech line.

He'd require a full chapter in a book, and we're way off-topic anyway. heh.

#6

We're talking about ACK, right?
Not Amiga Inc.
I'd love to know more.
I'm more familiar with bPlan and Genesi than I am Eyetech, even though the Pegasos 1 and early Amiga One's were very similar.

I have notice one similarity in virtually all Amiga related enterprises, they get others to work and develop for little or no cash up front, make grandiose statements, and then if something is produced, they often don't pay for the work.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»27.06.19 - 23:38