This is a repost from The Bar - Targhan told me to repost it here because the bar doesn't show up on the main page recent forum posts. Sorry for the double post, but I hope more people will read it this way. Wouldn't want you to think the reason for the further absence of the Vale and a new ScummVM would be because I have lost interest in MorphOS.

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Dear MorphOS users,

I really hate to make this statement as I promised to port the new ScummVM to MorphOS by Easter, but I'm sorry to say I am fed up with all the crap resulting from my butterflyvale Domain ownership.

You may have heard that the Butterfly Vale went away because my old hoster did go bancrupt. Another hoster bought the old one and re-registered my domain and thus became the new Tech-C without my knowledge/permission. They sent me a bill of €29 for just one year domain registration (which was 150% of what I used to pay for the entire webhosting previously!).

I sent them a note saying I'd terminate any contract I might still have with them (even though I am not aware there'd be one ...). Didn't hear anything from them since then ... until shortly before Easter when I got a letter from a debt collecting agency asking me to pay €110 now. Meanwhile, they're at €136 and threaten to call in the lawyers if I haven't paid until Monday while I still can't see on which legal facts the bill is based.

Since both the hoster and debt collecting agency refuse to cooperate with me, I spent most of my spare time trying to figure out whether their bill is correct and having sleepless nights.

So much about the trouble because of the butterflyvale.de Domain . As you can guess from the last paragraph, there was little else I could do in the last time.

The problem is that the owners of the new hoster are people who have a long history in illegal domain practices. It would be too long to go into detail. That's why I really do refuse to give such people my money because I have the strong feeling that they're just trying to rip people off (e.g. the debt collecting agency is listed as one of the hoster's list of references, figure that ...). After all, there's been quite some attempts to rip off domain owners recently. OTOH, internet law is quite complex and you never know whether they are trying to exploit a legal sliphole (I have already consulted two friends who studied law, called up the legal advise from the DeNIC, went to the consumer protection bureau, but the situation is still unclear). Other people hired lawyers who have written them and asked for the details regarding the legality of the bill, but silence answers back .....

OTOH, I want to have peace and quietness again here. Heck, I don't know what to do now .

Anyway, that's the end of the story. Don't want to take me a lawyer now as I have all crap insurances but none for legal costs; don't want to bother any more with this. Guess I'll this matter won't go off my mind for quite some time and eat up *all* of my time, not just the piece I could devote to bringing Butterfly Vale back somehow, or even porting ScummVM.

So that's the story ... let it be a lesson for you. Don't go for cheap ISPs. I tried to save every penny I could on butterflyvale.de since I didn't make any money with the site, and now I probably end up paying tons more than it would have cost me to go to a "proper" ISP.

I say it's a rip off. I'm not a lawyer - but this is
nothing a real company would do. They cannot
buy a company and sell their services to you
at different prices without giving you some sort
of ability to quit the relation to them.

As its a german domain i try it in german:
[German]
Du solltest eine Art Sonderkündigungsrecht
genießen, wie bei einer Versicherung.
Wird sie teurer kannst Du kündigen.
Wenn Du bei denen nichts unterschrieben hasst
gibt es auch keinen Vertrag.
[/German]

Sorry was easier to answer in mother tongue

The debt collecting agency won't help you because
they are probably partnered with the ISP thingy.

I wish THEY get cancer and that you now can sleep more well. Keep us informed.

Regards

Donar

Mmh, I don't understand... butterflyvale.de is registered to DjBase (a well known and respected member of our community) and hosted at 1&1. Are you saying he wants you to pay for the domain?

Something/-body seems to be confused here.

Thats right, I registered the domain. I heard about the troubles weeks ago and saw that the domain is free so I get it.

I havent sent any invoices. It was just for keeping it away from these criminals.

My plan was to give it back to the original author or for hosting the old page. If he wants the domain back he can contact me.

I'm not a lawyer, and obviously laws differ between countries, but
some general advice for such situations:

- Answer and deny all claims promptly. Do this by regular mail. If
they don't write a mailing address on their claims, they are not
serious. Answer *all* claims. Here in Sweden, there have been cases
with people who were drowned with fraudulous claims, to the point
where just answering it became a burden. But it was still the way to
go.

- Keep records that you sent them such denials. If it's causing you
loss of sleep, I think you should send them a statement denying any
contract with them by registered mail. This way you can prove that
they received it. Meanwhile, make sure to save any copies you have of
whatever you have communicated to them before. Even if it's just an
email which could easily be forged, it still helps you in case you
would get into court (not likely!!) because they would have to claim
you are a forger and that you don't just misremember when and what you
said. Make sure your copies are dated.

- Be careful not to make any admissions. It's easy to mistakenly
borrow some of their language in a reply, talking about some contract
or whatever as if it existed, when in fact it doesn't. No need to get
fancy, just tell them plainly that you don't have any agreement with
them and that you don't think you have any obligation to pay them, and
that if they think otherwise, you want them to explain and prove this.

@DJBase

Good move!

@tomjoad
They cannot charge you for a domain that they have not registered for you, right?!!

I don't know if it would have any impact, but maybe sending a collective letter against them (you know a really serious letter, the one that comes before the legal action [sorry don't remember the english term, in french it's "mise en demeure"]) could be a good idea to show our support to tomjoad.

I'm not too much into legal stuff, so what do you think?

Fred

Quote:

Yes. That's what "we" think as well. Indeed I called up the legal department of the DeNIC and read his letter to them and they were laughing hard all the time.

This guy is quite dangerous. Their "mother company" is in Thailand, as their Admin-C a certain "Javier Adan Rivera Fernandez" was listed who according to some Spanish articles I found on the web had already lots of legal trouble (domain grabbing and abuse, credit card and investment fraught, etc. pp). The German company owner and some of his "references" have already seen courts from the inside for the same offences.

Btw, if you're German, check out the dude's other site www.geheim.com and have a look at what stuff he's selling ... foundation of "Panama AGs", international press passes and driving licenses (without proof of having one) etc. pp.

Quote:

They did not buy the company AFAIK. They "took over technical and financial administration within the same domain registrator group". This is indeed possible according to DeNIC, but the question is whether this is possible without the permission of the Admin-C (the DeNIC says all changes to the domain record must be accepted by the Admin-C).

Quote:

Yes. I sent them a letter by registered mail with return card (so I've got proof they got it) making use of this right to terminate any contract. I never heard from them again, first thing thereafter was the debt collecting agency. I had assumed the matter had been settled with this termination.

I never received a reply from them why they ignored it. But others did, and they seriously claim we would not have this right to terminate our contracts because we wouldn't have any with him, just with the DeNIC. Why the heck does he take over my domain and send me a bill then?!?!

Quote:

They are listed as one of the ISP's references on their homepage. Funny, isn't it? The other references are quite dubious and all refer back to the company again so they're not really independent ones.

So ... the debt collecting agency may not cost him anything because he has good contacts or this company may be owned somehow by Mr. Fernandez network as well. Dunno. Alas, he already threatened people with court. I'm just wondering if he's trying to exploit some sliphole in law.

Quote:

Nonono! Of course he's not. After I did not pay, the domain registrator gave the domain back to the DeNIC. The DeNIC put it in TRANSIT and tried to contact me to ask what's to be done with it, but the old hoster had not registered my full address with the DeNIC and two letters came back as undeliverable, so they deleted the domain registration.

Quote:
Wouldn't expect the opposite
Quote:
Ah, bad luck... but the domain is in good hands now

Hope you will get rid of that geheim.com-guy soon, he should have no proof that can withstand a court.

yeah.. don't talk about cheap providers. I'm trying since more than a year to move my domain taniquetil.de from old to new provider. It's a very similiar story.

The only thing you can do is to make it public.

I can only suggest not host your domains with netbeat.de. Seem to be a very similiar chaotic group, they have a "Hinterhof" contact adresses in germany, but their headquarters are in romania. Very suspect. If i just had known earlier.

regards,
tokai

So Mr HighIntelligence already said that you/others have no contract
with him and never had. So no reason for you to pay. After all
background information you gave. It would be very annoying if he even
had a chance in court. Just tell the judge about www.geheim.com ... .
But this won't happen. People like Fernandez try to threaten people
with all kinds of tricks to get their money . And i think much people
pay because they do not want to have trouble and are afraid of court
costs. I say: With his "mailbox company" (Scheinfirma) he knows that
one can even start a court against him if his company was in eg
germany. Good thing is also you are not alone, and you know
of the other incidents.


Don't give up.

It is very sad that people like us have to bother with this kind
of people.

For the next time maybe get a court insurance (not only for
internet...) so you can go to a lawyer and send nice letters back.
Then you do not have to bother with this yourself.

Cheers

Ok, I assume you replied to the collector's demand as well.

I don't know the situation in Germany, but here in Sweden the
collector would in turn leave their demands to the federal enforcement
officers. These would send you a letter, and if you don't respond to
that letter you would be in trouble. But before the federal
enforcement authorities are involved, there's no real legal threat.

[edit: And if the companies are a sham, they very likely would not
turn to the authorities, as they don't want to arouse their
attention!]


Anyway, I think you have really nothing to fear. This type of scam is
not usually based on any "legal loophole", but rather they are hoping
that *you* will be scared by the legal threats and think it's
safest/most comfortable to just pay and shut up.

Well first of all ... thanks to you all for your kind words. I do appreciate it and I hope I'll get out of this without paying anything.

Quote:

Yes and no. I did write them just today; maybe I should have done earlier but German law states that the company who has sent the bill does have to minimise the costs for the person owing the money. So ... once there are clear signs that I wouldn't pay even after he called in a debt collector, he has disregarded his obligement. Luckily (I didn't know this by then, you learn a lot of stuff) I clearly stated in my letter I sent by registered mail that I wouldn't pay period. So his only way should have been straight to court - any other means trying to collect the money are at his own expense.

But as I stated, just to make sure I sent the collectors an e-mail, tomorrow morning a fax and a registered letter will go out (wanna be safe).

EDIT: Oops I think I misunderstood you (that you were talking of debt collector costs). Yes I know, once a federal enforcement letter comes in, I'd have to reply within two weeks or automatically accept the debt

Not with me ...

Hi tomjoad,

I wish you all the luck in the world with this.
And I'm glad your going for the "battle" and not for the accepting of this ridiculous nonsense!
I really hate these kind of people!

Again, good luck!

Spidey