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Any actual proof on this?


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Yes, and as we all know web designers are experts when it comes to CPU's ;) What kind of benchmarks did you guys do, and on what platforms?

You can craft a benchmark to make your product to shine over another. But forget about it, the advantage x86 has is not technical, but a much more important one. And event technically speaking, these hugely evolutioned CPUs are far from being dumb.

...and then, it's all about how you use them.

i've been using for a few months a 2,5ghz Corei7 cpu that i overclocked at 3,8ghz, running perfectly stable and blazzing fast, and who does need more than air cooling and keeps at decent temperatures. I don't remember any PowerPC processor able of doing that without being water cooled.
Not to start a debate, but it is quite obvious that X86 is finally going to an interesting direction and PowerPC is agonising, trapped in its limits. And no one cares to work on making it evolve or progress.
The Amiga spirit was driven with innovation, pushing the limits, at least on the glory days. Now the Amiga spirit looks like something that doesn't dare. Stuck on old technologies, stuck on old hardware, stuck on its holy compability (the most efficient blocker), etc.

I would never blame someone that loves tu use vintage cars, as long as he loves driving them, but isn't computing in general about progress ?

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:26 ]

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Agreed 100%. The "problem" is that the industry (thus not us) is already doing so!

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Od course. But you'll have a hard time finding a regular computer thas has so little power. Imagine telling your boss that you have to spend very expensive human resources into optimizing for an scenario that either doesn't exist, or is easily avoided.

Of course, I agree that MorphOS is more clever than other operating systems. But it also does less things. And it has to, in order to kkep its philosopy.

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Very valid option. Just because it's a very obvious option! Pity that, again, the industry is already doing so: If you specifically suggest "custom chips", by the time you have them working properly (after a huuuuuge and bloody expensive development cycle) you already have in the market very clever chips that already do that, and more. Would you compete with ATi or nVidia in the GPU space? Perhaps you just want a subset of the functions their chips already provide... But hey, go boy the full package! It's going to be proven, cheaper technology.

It's a shame, but the scenario in which the Amiga 1000 emerged no longer exists, when you could outshine others doing all the components by yourself, becuase noone else had those components. There were much more opportunities for innovation.

There are lots of extremely clever engineering teams designing pretty much anything you could ever think about. Both in processor and coprocessor areas.

So, in all, the "problem" is that computer industry has become boring. Innovation is only possible in the software area: Putting those clever chips to work like they should!

Now I've realized I've just said things you already knew. Sorry for wasting your time guys!

> the SoC concept: processor bundled with and cooperating with special chips on
> a board. Like a chip for 3D environments and one for Theora video at hi-def.

A SoC is one single chip with various functional units for different purposes, not various chips on a single board. Your old habit of confusing chips and boards once again... Kind of running gag?

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:23 ]

> you only make yourself look bad and childish with your rudeness needling.

While I respect your opinion I think that you make yourself look stubborn with your... well ...stubbornness. Or why else do you keep on confusing things you've been corrected about numerous times? Is that some kind of ludicrous humour?

Velcro was slightly wrong, and Andreas very rude. Don't like.

Andreas, we all tell mistakes, wrong things, bad informations or convictions, this is sadly human, something that seems out of your comprehension. Don't be so rude and straight sharp, there's nothing wrong with correcting mistakes, on the contrary, but i suggest you take it easy, and stop making such rude comments.

@ jcmarcos

There is still room for low end solutions. I think if you would offer a 99 US$ mini computer it could sell. Those ultra low priced things are currently only able to get realized with ARM or PPC.
Applied micro just has introduced the APM801xx family. A series of ultra low priced, low power ppc SoCs (SoC w/o gfx or Audio, but offers PCIe and comes with SATA, usb2.0 and GbE). They are clocked up to 800 MHz (enough for simple things, just the Power of a SAM board and well above the Efika 5200B) and sell for less than 10US$!
Chips like that have the potential to establish a market for very, very cheap, ultra low wattage small devices (of cleverly designed). That would be a product of a kind not available yet.
More or less like the cherrypal/Efika2, but cheaper? and with more power.

--
?) For the Efika2 there was never a price confirmed, but probably it would have got an attractive price tag, since Genesi was always pretty price sensitive.

You can compare this debate to vehicles.
@X86 advocates

Lets say I have a '97 MR2 I love, I use it for racing and such. Now I get my spark plugs from one exclusive manufacturer. Now, you're telling that manufacturer to stop making parts for that car and to make them for a new car, such as the Honda S2k (which already gets parts from Honda), because you want cheaper parts for it. Problem is, you are alienating the millions who depend on this company. Same here, We have AROS on X86, why can't that be enough proof to show you x86 is not good? (If windows and Snow leopard don't already convince you) Because of you're unwillingness to see that the end of development on PPC is the end of Amigas, because you will be helping the very companies that destroyed them. Amiga, is 68k and PPC, anything else, is an abomination that will never be Amiga.

> They are clocked up to 800 MHz (enough for simple things, just the Power of a
> SAM board and well above the Efika 5200B)

Do you happen to know which kind of CPU core the APM801xx has? A PPC460 based core like the APM821xx has? A PPC405 based core? Or something else? Strangely, this information is omitted from Applied Micro's press release.

@Dreamcast270mhz
Ah well... good luck with that, I prefer things that work for me, if something else comes along that serves the purpose, I have no objection to that. Sure, I have 4 PPC systems here, not because of some attachment to PPC, but because I like MorphOS. I suspect that wouldn't change with a port to another architecture, even if that architecture killed your pet (it didn't ;)).

> Velcro was slightly wrong

Describing the SoC concept as several chips cooperating with each other on a board is not being slightly wrong but not understanding the SoC concept at all.

> and Andreas very rude.

That's just because he is a repeater :-)

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No, you can't. Car analogies are always stupid.

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So, by your definition PPC must be crap too, as AROS runs on it. The quality of an OS doesn't make the CPU any better or worse.

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I corrected the line for you ;)

> we all tell mistakes, wrong things, bad informations or convictions, this is sadly
> human, something that seems out of your comprehension.

No, that's not out of my comprehension. To err is human, right, but to repeatedly make the same mistake over and over again and ignoring the corrections on this over and over again is outright stubborn. This is at least the 3rd time here on MZ that I correct him on making that same mistake (confusing boards and chips). May you enlighten me what's so hard in telling computer chips from computer boards? I really don't get it.

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:29 ]

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I don't know, but it seems to be a rather slow ALU. 800 MHZ are expected to deliver 1216 MIPS i.e. only 1.5 MIPS/MHz. IIRC the 460 core should do about 2 MIPS/MHz (like the e300). But I don't know any particular details, only picked up some noise from the net and http://investor.appliedmicro.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=78121&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1424482&highlight= .

Could you guys grow up a bit? This bitching around doesn't seem to productive too me. This a a forum of talk - not a scientific report nor politics or a court procedure. Just some talk.

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[ Edited by Velcro_SP 20.04.2011 - 07:22 ]

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The prob is when a discussion starts to turn into an argument or gets too childish it isn't always clear to decide who actually started and whose fault it was. It just happend. It is wise then to just cut it, leave out any accusations and just move on to the topic again. It's not always easy, but most of the times the best approach.

>> May you enlighten me what's so hard in telling computer chips from computer
>> boards? I really don't get it.

> You're the only one who doesn't.

That's rather unlikely. I even dare to claim that here on MZ there is no one besides you that cannot tell computer chips from computer boards.

>> A PPC460 based core like the APM821xx has? A PPC405 based core?
>> Or something else?

> 800 MHZ are expected to deliver 1216 MIPS i.e. only 1.5 MIPS/MHz.

Thanks for the pointer. I overlooked this important piece of information in the press release. A value of 1.52 DMIPS/MHz clearly points to a PPC405 core (compare: PPC405EX, PPC405EXr). So I think we have it. Thanks again :-)

> IIRC the 460 core should do about 2 MIPS/MHz (like the e300).

Yes, PPC460 (as well as PPC440) delivers 2.0 DMIPS/MHz. But e300 delivers slightly less, namely 1.9 DMIPS/MHz.

> I'd love to discuss the substantive comment I made about
> energy consumption and X86 v. PPC.

Nobody's stopping you from discussing your own comment.

> I can't entirely ignore when someone blows off the substantive talk

As far as I'm concerned, you are free to discuss whatever you feel is substantive (e.g. "energy consumption and X86 v. PPC"). Don't act as if I was somehow hindering you from doing that. I'm definitely not.