Price of MorphOS license
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Papiosaur
    Posts: 2054 from 2003/4/10
    From: France
    111,11 euros for an ibook G4 800 MHz bought 100 euros is expensive...

    I would like to offer this licence to a friend want to try to develop on MorphOS but i can't buy it this price :(

    all MorphOS licences to 79 euros will be better :-D
  • »02.03.16 - 20:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Yasu schrieb:
    @Zylesea

    I do get what you mean there, but I still think it's odd that _this_ particular hobby should be accessable to everyone and not, let's say, collecting stamps. OK, I guess you mean that while we think 79 euro is not so bad but it's pretty bad for a poor person. Which is true.


    Exactly. I paid 111,- for my Efika, 150,- for my mini and 111,- for my Powerbook and don't feel to be ripped off for it (albeit I am not wealthy in a western perspective). The price was okay for me. But for others these sums are quite some money amd may be a deal breaker. And look to the registration numbers, they _are_ low. If it's due to the price or just to the fact that the majority doesn't see the beauty of MorphOS (ignorants!) is not that simple to decide.
    Quote:


    But it's funny that this line of thought often comes up mostly when we talk about software.


    I guess this is due to the fact that software is virtually free of cost to _reproduce_ and hence many ppl don't see the real worth of it and - even worse.- don't see themassive work behind it. It's a difficult story. I am not advocating to make all things free, but I like to broaden the view and try to take perspectives of other people's view to get a bigger picture, to understand _and_ eventually learn from it.
    Quote:


    Like it's a bad thing to want to get some money out of your coding. Some people who claim house builders should have a fair wage are quick to say that everything should be free and open source. Like programmers aren't good people for wanting a pay check. Why is that exactly?
    .

    Like said I am not for free beer for all but the brewers... It's a market thing: If the brewers don't get paid the free beer will soon be all drunk and the only thing that will follow is an ugly headache. But no more "party on!".

    I never said to make MorphOS free. But it may also be true that the current market model is not the best of all possible ones. Which I honestly don't know.
    I once studied a bit of economics (I am a biologist and thought of doing some additional thing, was kind of "funny", but dropped it after two terms for various reasons (one was that lectures started at 07:30 in the morning!)), but the first lesson that was taught (with a great overhead and waaay too theoretic) is the pure fact that if you offer a product you'll need to find the price optimum that maxes out the total profit which is somewhere between max profit per item and max items sold. As economics is no real science (at least IMHO) there's no valid and general model to determine this ideal price. It's rather trial and error and a thing every vegetable seller on a saturdays marked implicitly knows (you don't need to study economics for that simple fact).
    --
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    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
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  • »02.03.16 - 23:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Zylesea

    I didn't mean that you hold these views (I understand that you don't). I was thinking in general terms. Pretty often you read here and elsewhere that "software X should be free (and open sourced)!" and suggest that programmers who wants to be paid for their work are greedy bastards. But you never read on a car forum that "car X should be built for free because wanting money for your car is greed!".

    Yet another funny thing is that you almost never ever heard this suggested up until the mid 90's. Never. No one thought it was odd that a word processor cost 300$. Or even 1500$. People just said "oh, that is too expensive" and just didn't buy it or or used a pirated copy.

    And even yet another funny thing is that when the "code should be open sourced" sort of mentality got stuck people argued mostly from a general standpoint ("with open source we can democratize computing") or even economical ("with open source you can get feedback on bugs and help to fix them") but now it's mostly an almost fanatical tone when it comes up. "Open source is the only correct moral viewpoint" or something like that. It's like the ugly side of the "Social Justice Warrior" mentality is creeping into the computer world too.

    From a historical point of view I find this development fashinating. And troublesome.

    [ Edited by Yasu 03.03.2016 - 13:54 ]
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  • »03.03.16 - 11:55
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  • Just looking around
    FerociousAmiga
    Posts: 8 from 2016/6/6
    From: DFW, TX, US
    Was wondering about this and found this thread. IMO MorphOS it is way over price. These programmers have done a great job and I understand that they have to eat but they are programmers not business people. Their price model is way off, so I don't think they are eating much. All version should be in the same price.

    MorphOS 3.9
    USD $126 (€ 111) PowerBook G4 system, iBook G4 or Power Mac G5
    USD $90 (€ 79) eMac, Mac mini G4, Pegasos I, Pegasos II or PowerMac G4
    USD $56 (€ 49) EfikaPPC or Sam460

    AmigaOS 4.1 Final Ed.
    USD $34 (€ 30)

    Reason? I have seen used G4 PowerBook on Craig's List for USD $50. Now lets exaggerate and say it's $100. How does this justify the USD $126 for the OS?

    IMO this OS should not cost more the USD $56 (€ 49) which I still consider high but would put out but $ USD $34 is even more attractive and seems so much better priced. I can get a PPC version of Linux for free, not sure how fast it will work but it's available or use OS X Leopard at the most.

    The programmers should consider this OS more as a religion and not business (M$ Windows). Their is an Amiga following..., still after all these years. They also should consider expanding to another platform like ARM (eg: Raspberry Pi). New PPC hardware doesn't seem to be readily available for a few years now... 2012?

    This is just my 2 cent.

    -Live on Amiga! :)

    [ Edited by FerociousAmiga 06.06.2016 - 11:28 ]
    -----------------------------------------------------
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  • »06.06.16 - 15:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > All version should be in the same price.

    I think it's only fair that MorphOS for systems with limited use (e.g. Efika 5200B) is available for a lower price.

    > I have seen used G4 PowerBook on Craig's List for USD $50. Now lets exaggerate
    > and say it's $100. How does this justify the USD $126 for the OS?

    I have seen used MorphOS-compatible systems go for free. How does this justify paying any money for the OS?

    Detailed answer to this by ASiegel:
    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11659&forum=3&start=21

    > I can get a PPC version of Linux for free [...] or use OS X Leopard at the most.

    OSX for PPC has not seen an update in almost 7 years. And comparing with Linux, even Windows and OSX are exorbitantly overpriced.

    > They also should consider expanding to another platform like ARM (eg: Raspberry Pi).

    The announced long-range objective is to port MorphOS to x86-64 / x64 / AMD64 / Intel 64.

    > New PPC hardware doesn't seem to be readily available for a few years now... 2012?

    In terms of mobile/desktop/workstation PPC hardware, there're at least 4 projects in the works (in descending order by degree of completion):

    1. AmigaOne X5000 (Cyrus Plus) by A-Eon (to be supported by next MorphOS release)
    2. AmigaOne A1222 (Tabor) by A-Eon
    3. Talos Secure Workstation (and mainboard) by Raptor
    4. GNU/Linux PowerPC notebook
  • »06.06.16 - 16:27
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2243 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    FerociousAmiga wrote

    Reason? I have seen used G4 PowerBook on Craig's List for USD $50. Now lets exaggerate and say it's $100. How does this justify the USD $126 for the OS?




    By this "logic" the team should charge 1000€ for the X5000 version ;)

    Or maybe you should be happy that you can now buy a powerfull Amiga-Laptop for just $226......
  • »06.06.16 - 16:52
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    connor
    Posts: 570 from 2007/7/29
    @ FerociousAmiga

    A cheaper MorphOS would of course be nicer but as you throw in the 30 EUR for OS4.1 FE, I cann tell that MorphOS is very much worth four times the price. Even more as I got free updates for almost 8 years now which is not the case for OS4.1 (quite the contrary). Even more as you have to pay around 80 EUR for an additional "AmigaOS Enhancer" pack with updated drivers and yet another Multiview(er) and about two new ReAction classes. Earlier we called that "BoingBag" which was for free. Nowadays we call that update. An update with that effort is either for free as it has been for many updates since MorphOS 2.0 (pick any of the release notes here: http://morphos.de/releasenotes/3.9 by clicking any of the version buttons) or it costs 70 EUR as for OS4.1 "Final Edition". Your choice.
  • »06.06.16 - 18:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2794 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    in my opinion theres one huge problem regarding the OS4 community and that is AmiStore. They really squeeze out the last penny from the user. but thats A-EON business it seems...


    Not sure why you think that AmiStore (and apparently A-Eon paying programmers for their work), is a bad thing for the AmigaOS4.x users. If the AmigaOS4.x community does not have enough talented programmers, who are willing to donate their spare time writing code for free, then the only logical solution is for the community to pay programmers who are willing to do the work needed for a price.

    It is unusual, and lucky for us, that the MorphOS Dev. Team does as much as they do without compensation, and that they are as talented and prolific at completing code, as they have been these last 10+ years. If I understand the license model correctly, the money goes to either Ralph Schmidt or to maintain the official MorphOS website, or both, and none of it goes to the Dev. Team members. (I'm sure someone will correct me on this)
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »07.06.16 - 02:12
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  • jPV
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    jPV
    Posts: 2033 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    FerociousAmiga wrote:
    All version should be in the same price.


    If you take a look bit further at the past, the price was the same for all (first 150e, then 111e), so I think this has been a fair move to reduce the price at least for the older hardware.

    Quote:

    AmigaOS 4.1 Final Ed.
    USD $34 (€ 30)



    Take a look in the past with this too. It hasn't been long in that price. It was much higher (over 100e IIRC), and users who bougth it then, had to pay AGAIN for that 30e to keep the system up to date. And even after that, you still have to pay extra for new drivers and other system components.

    It isn't that black and white like you see with just a quick look at the latest major release.

    Quote:


    Reason? I have seen used G4 PowerBook on Craig's List for USD $50. Now lets exaggerate and say it's $100. How does this justify the USD $126 for the OS?


    This has been answered several times already in this thread, but I'll add that how could the team be changing the pricing all the time when some used computers market prices changes somewhere in the world? It isn't too long since Powerbooks were over 200e as used here, and there still is great variation in the prices. Some lucky find can be cheap, but it doesn't mean they're all cheap everywhere in the world. And as said, why the heck should software price be tightly tied to it anyway? Can you see anything like that in any platform that used prices would affect to the retail products? Users should be happy if the total price comes down if one part of the price reduces... can't understand this way of thinking.

    Quote:

    IMO this OS should not cost more the USD $56 (€ 49) which I still consider high but would put out but $ USD $34 is even more attractive and seems so much better priced. I can get a PPC version of Linux for free, not sure how fast it will work but it's available or use OS X Leopard at the most.


    Of course cheaper would always be better for user point of view, but those two OS examples aren't good to compare. It's useless to compare to totally free systems like Linux. If you want to compare to something, show an example of currently sold and updated marginal system. Or some other software bundle which is sold and updated.
  • »07.06.16 - 06:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If I understand the license model correctly, the money goes to either
    > Ralph Schmidt or to maintain the official MorphOS website, or both

    ...and to purchase hardware to complete MorphOS support for. Apple has made subtle and undocumented revisions of their boards where they switched to a slightly different chip or chip revision for a certain functionality, which usually requires driver adaptation. So completely supporting one specific model of PPC Mac may require purchasing a good number of machines.
  • »07.06.16 - 08:15
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Quote:

    It's useless to compare to totally free systems like Linux.


    Actually, it's not really free. The kernel is nowadays 75% coded by paid programmers at huge corporations who need a good kernel for their server and server service needs. Ubuntu makes their money out of server services, and a lot of popular distros are made out of that codebase, by paid developers. Sure, there are several community based non profit distros too but they still benefit from this paid work.

    If Linux was, just like MorphOS, coded by free time programmers for nothing or peanuts it would be in a lot worse state today. It's because it found a market that corporations are prepared to invest millions in it despite the code being open source. Just because the end user can get it for free doesn't mean there is no profit motive nor developers with generous paychecks involved.

    People should stop forgetting this. Especially those who nags about the price of MorphOS. Nothing is free. It's paid either in money or in less free time, or a combination of both.

    [ Edited by Yasu 07.06.2016 - 13:15 ]
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »07.06.16 - 10:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The kernel is nowadays 75% coded by paid programmers at huge corporations

    It's even more than 80% contributed by paid programmers, according to the latest report from 1½ years ago:

    http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2015/02/linux-foundation-releases-linux-development-report

    > who need a good kernel for their server and server service needs.

    ...or their non-server needs (Linaro, Samsung, Texas Instruments, Vision Engraving Systems, Renesas etc.) :-)

    > Ubuntu [...], and a lot of popular distros are made out of that codebase,
    > by paid developers.

    Are you sure that the official Ubuntu-based distributions are done by paid people? I only found that Kubuntu is contributed to also by corporate programmers, but not for the other distros.
  • »07.06.16 - 12:00
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 3004 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    Even if the used hardware gets cheaper and cheaper, the booze does not. Gotta fuel the programming somehow...
  • »07.06.16 - 13:41
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    FerociousAmiga wrote:
    AmigaOS 4.1 Final Ed.
    USD $34 (€ 30)



    Not this argument again... Jeez. Go drop thousands of dollars on a compatible system and then get back to us how you only dropped $34 on the OS. Once you try updating the OS you will find that $34 is not really $34. OS4 updates are now handled by A-Eonkit, a 3rd party. The most recent update is $80 and future updates will probably cost you $80+ a clip. You also have to pay for firmware updates and just about everything else.

    After emptying your bank account you will find your OS4 computer is nowhere near as functional or powerful as a cheap Power Mac with MorphOS license.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 07.06.2016 - 11:18 ]
  • »07.06.16 - 14:17
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Cononical pay their programmers, yes.
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  • »07.06.16 - 15:30
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > You also have to pay for firmware updates

    While this has been the case with ACube, A-Eon provided the firmware update for the X1000 for free.
  • »07.06.16 - 15:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Ubuntu [...], and a lot of popular distros are made out of that codebase,
    >>> by paid developers.

    >> Are you sure that the official Ubuntu-based distributions are done by paid people?
    >> I only found that Kubuntu is contributed to also by corporate programmers,
    >> but not for the other distros.

    > Cononical pay their programmers, yes.

    Canonical does not contribute to all 12 listed official Ubuntu-based distros, hence my question. Looking deeper, I find that the following ones are apparently contributed to by Canonical: Edubuntu, Ubuntu Touch, Ubuntu TV, Ubuntu Server. The following are contributed to by other corporations: Kubuntu (Blue Systems), Ubuntu Kylin (Chinese military). For the remaining 6 official Ubuntu-based distros (Ubuntu Gnome, Ubuntu Mate, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Mythbuntu, Ubuntu Studio) there's no corporate contributor mentioned.
  • »07.06.16 - 16:03
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  • Just looking around
    FerociousAmiga
    Posts: 8 from 2016/6/6
    From: DFW, TX, US
    Quote:

    FerociousAmiga
    >MorphOS 3.9
    >USD $126 (€ 111) PowerBook G4 system, iBook G4 or Power Mac G5
    >USD $90 (€ 79) eMac, Mac mini G4, Pegasos I, Pegasos II or PowerMac G4
    >USD $56 (€ 49) EfikaPPC or Sam460

    > All version should be in the same price.

    Andreas_Wolf
    >>I think it's only fair that MorphOS for systems with limited use (e.g. Efika 5200B) is available for a lower price.

    So MorphOS is less expensive on a system that is limited in use? So a Powerbook laptop with get more use then a Mac Mini desktop and that's why it costs more? Don't see the logic to that or at least that's how I'm understanding the pricing goes...

    Quote:

    FerociousAmiga
    >They also should consider expanding to another platform like ARM (eg: Raspberry Pi).

    Andreas_Wolf
    >>The announced long-range objective is to port MorphOS to x86-64 / x64 / AMD64 / Intel 64.

    IMO I see more benefit on ARM processors (aka Raspberry Pi). The x86/x64 have too many OS options IMO.

    Quote:

    Kronos
    >>By this "logic" the team should charge 1000€ for the X5000 version ;)
    >>Or maybe you should be happy that you can now buy a powerfull Amiga-Laptop for just $226......



    :P


    @connor
    Understood, thanks!

    @jPV
    Understood, thanks!

    Like to thank everyone here for the civilized replies!
    :)


    [ Edited by FerociousAmiga 07.06.2016 - 16:27 ]
    -----------------------------------------------------
    MorphOS 3.9 (Licensed!)
    Mac Mini G4 (1,5GHz, 64MB VRam, 1GB Ram, 32GB Kingspec PATA SSD)
    Amiga 1200, 68020
    Amiga 500
    Amiga 1000
  • »07.06.16 - 16:25
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @FerociousAmiga

    The Mac Mini version used to cost 150 Euro even, before dropping to 111 before dropping to 79. Some models have become cheaper with age.

    The laptop support are much newer and took a lot of work, hence the price.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »07.06.16 - 20:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I think it's only fair that MorphOS for systems with limited use (e.g. Efika 5200B)
    >> is available for a lower price.

    > So MorphOS is less expensive on a system that is limited in use? So a Powerbook
    > laptop with get more use then a Mac Mini desktop and that's why it costs more?
    > Don't see the logic to that or at least that's how I'm understanding the pricing goes...

    Seems language barrier at work here. I should have better written "limited usability" instead of "limited use". The Efika 5200B has a 400 MHz CPU and 128 MiB RAM. This should sufficiently illustrate the "limited usability".
    The iBook and the PowerBook are the only mobile devices supported by MorphOS, and the PowerMac G5 is the fastest machine supported by MorphOS, so that's why MorphOS for them is in the most expensive category. At least that's my personal explanation, and I don't speak for the MorphOS team.
  • »07.06.16 - 21:41
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Quote:

    Canonical does not contribute to all 12 listed official Ubuntu-based distros, hence my question.


    No, of course not. But they have paid programmers who write stuff for Ubuntu, which the other distributions also use.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »08.06.16 - 09:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12086 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they have paid programmers who write stuff for Ubuntu,
    > which the other distributions also use.

    I've been thinking your statement in question ("Ubuntu makes their money out of server services, and a lot of popular distros are made out of that codebase, by paid developers.") was saying who makes Ubuntu-based distros, not who makes Ubuntu (= "that codebase"). If not, I've apparently misunderstood the meaning of that sentence.
  • »08.06.16 - 12:27
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 1033 from 2004/9/23
    Talking prices is kind of useless.

    The MorphOSTeam defines the amount of money it takes to register and the user deceides to pay or not to pay. End of story.

    In fact thats how it works for all products. e.g. Apple is selling their ipads for around 800 euro, while other companies are selling tabletts with the same size for far less. Well, people buy their ipads as they want them and they think the product is worth the price.

    Of course apple could reduce prices by 40-50% to increase the number of sales, but - well - they don´ t want their product compete/handled as cheap. Their decision. And since a product sales well, the price is not to high.

    Same goes for MorphOS. The OS contains many hours of work of multiple developers. There is no reason to reduce prices. Most "classic" NG (peg1+2,efika,mini) hardware or hardware which the Team did not expect much sales from, is already handled at reduced price.

    e.g. the Sam460. No clue how many sam460 licences were sold, but I guess not even close to 10 by now, even so people wanted "hardware supported that is actually for sale with proper warranty". A wish the MorphOS Team fullfilled even with a reduced price, which at the end was not worth it, as the developing was for sure more expensive than the 500 euro gained if 10 licences where actually sold.
  • »08.06.16 - 13:11
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1217 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    Talking prices is kind of useless.

    The MorphOSTeam defines the amount of money it takes to register and the user deceides to pay or not to pay. End of story.



    Yup. Sounds about right to me! Thanks for working on MorphOS!! :-)
  • »08.06.16 - 13:35
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    e.g. the Sam460. No clue how many sam460 licences were sold, but I guess not even close to 10 by now, even so people wanted "hardware supported that is actually for sale with proper warranty".


    I expected bad, but good to get confirmation just how bad.

    All that bluster from a few posters about users wanting "new" systems for nothing.
  • »08.06.16 - 14:51
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