MorphOS on Sam460
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 480 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Does anyone know which SAM is the hardware wise most stable and well rounded?
    > I got the impression that it's one of the 440's, but I would like to get that confirmed.

    I remember having read about stability issues with the 800 MHz version of the Sam440ep-flex when running CPU-intense tasks for long, which I think was ascribed to the 20% overclocking of the CPU (CPU manufacturer rates it at 667 MHz max). For the 733 MHz (10% overclocked) version I don't remember reading about such issues.


    Your memory serves you well.
    Additionally, the 440 has overlay available to it, the 460 still has no h/w acceleration currently, so your intended usage should play a part in selecting models.

    Source

    #6
  • »16.08.13 - 16:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > If this means that more resources will now be transferred to improving
    > MorphOS on existing hardware then it's actually great news. :)

    Wouldn't this mean that the announced Sam460 support has been bad news all along as it has drawn resources away from "improving MorphOS on existing hardware"? :-)


    When you put it like that yeah. :lol:
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.08.13 - 16:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the 440 has overlay available to it, the 460 still has no h/w acceleration currently

    In case the single onboard-SATA port suffices, you can put a Radeon 9000 or 92x0 into the PCI slot and have overlay as well as 2D and 3D hardware acceleration when running OS4. Besides, I think that the Radeon HD drivers for OS4 do support 2D hardware acceleration.
    But the driver situation on OS4 is not so much relevant for running MorphOS on the Sam460 anyway. MorphOS currently supports more and faster Radeon 9xxx cards in 2D and 3D than OS4 but lacks support for anything above.
  • »16.08.13 - 16:23
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 480 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the 440 has overlay available to it, the 460 still has no h/w acceleration currently

    In case the single onboard-SATA port suffices, you can put a Radeon 9000 or 92x0 into the PCI slot and have overlay as well as 2D and 3D hardware acceleration when running OS4. Besides, I think that the Radeon HD drivers for OS4 do support 2D hardware acceleration.
    But the driver situation on OS4 is not so much relevant for running MorphOS on the Sam460 anyway. MorphOS currently supports more and faster Radeon 9xxx cards in 2D and 3D than OS4 but lacks support for anything above.


    That's one excellent point. And for most folks I don't think a single onboard-SATA port does suffice.
    Regarding video h/w acceleration overall,
    I think this thread says it better than I can:
    radeonHD video hw acceleration

    Unless I read this wrong, the last (fairly recent) posting indicates things are not moving as quickly as hoped.

    #6
  • »16.08.13 - 18:26
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    For MorphOS usage single sata port is probably enough.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »16.08.13 - 20:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > video h/w acceleration

    Using the GPU to decode video streams is yet another, distinct kind of hardware acceleration adding to the ones we mentioned before in this thread.

    > the last (fairly recent) posting indicates things are not moving as quickly as hoped.

    Yes, video acceleration isn't easy to implement even with 2D acceleration already in place.
  • »16.08.13 - 21:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    the 440 has overlay available to it, the 460 still has no h/w acceleration currently


    I guess most people will find the maximum resolution of the 460's SM502 to be too limited for desktops today, and the lack of 3D acceleration makes it even more unusable (even for Ambient, not only for games). However, it does support overlay though, which I suppose qualifies as some kind of "H/W acceleration"... ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »16.08.13 - 22:28
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2794 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    pega-1 wrote:
    I'm sorry to spoil the party but MorphOS support for Sam440 is very unlikely to happen. Our original plans to support 460 got massively delayed already and even there is quite some low level work still ahead.
    With all the additional issues showing up in public and the rather sparse feedback we received from customers regarding our plans to support ACube's hardware, it's not even sure if that will ever see the light of day anytime soon ...



    The only down side I see to this news is that having a second system which can dual boot AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS3.x, specially a system that is still available for sale as new hardware, could only be advantageous to the acceptance of MorphOS3.x by more existing AmigaOS4.x users, no matter how small that number may be.

    Since MorphOS is so easy to try for free, I think that most SAM460 owners would at least try it for a while to see what it is like. Many of those owners would like what they were seeing, and if they noticed any performance increase and extra features while running MorphOS3.x, compared to AmigaOS4.x, there is a chance that they would begin using MorphOS3.x more often (possibly even convert to using it as their preferred choice).

    Personally, I was very surprised that any work toward supporting the 460 was started, but I understand the feeling that some people have about wanting new hardware, instead of used systems, even though I do not share that feeling and am quite happy with all of my used MorphOS capable computers, but I am not discouraged by this news, as I don't think support of the 460 will make much difference, and not supporting it will not make much difference in the resources available for working on improving MorphOS3.3.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »16.08.13 - 22:28
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:

    The only down side I see to this news is that having a second system which can dual boot AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS3.x, specially a system that is still available for sale as new hardware, could only be advantageous to the acceptance of MorphOS3.x by more existing AmigaOS4.x users, no matter how small that number may be.

    Since MorphOS is so easy to try for free, I think that most SAM460 owners would at least try it for a while to see what it is like. Many of those owners would like what they were seeing, and if they noticed any performance increase and extra features while running MorphOS3.x, compared to AmigaOS4.x, there is a chance that they would begin using MorphOS3.x more often (possibly even convert to using it as their preferred choice).

    Personally, I was very surprised that any work toward supporting the 460 was started, but I understand the feeling that some people have about wanting new hardware, instead of used systems, even though I do not share that feeling and am quite happy with all of my used MorphOS capable computers, but I am not discouraged by this news, as I don't think support of the 460 will make much difference, and not supporting it will not make much difference in the resources available for working on improving MorphOS3.3.


    The threshold of trying out MorphOS isn't very high at all, not for anyone. As long as your scope of interest in your Amiga hobby is ever so slightly wider than "teh reel!!1!", then you can easily try out both MorphOS and AROS as well.

    As seen on web forums like this and others, several "old timer OS4 users" has over the last few years become either dual or MorphOS only users. It's not difficult to get a hold of a piece of MorphOS HW for less than the cost of an OS4 license alone, and for testing purposes you will get very far with the 30 minute demo.

    Problem is "the rather sparse feedback we received from customers regarding our plans to support ACube's hardware"; I suppose that many of those who paid EUR 1,000 for a 460 system or USD 3,000+ for a X1000 in order to run OS4 simply lacks that "wider scope" in their Amiga hobby; I think many of them want OS4 or nothing. They invested in OS4, the HW was only a means to an end. Anyone who really is curious about MorphOS can easily try it as it is, no need for a Sam port for that.

    I'm not against MorphOS supporting Sam per se, but I completely fail to see the point? MorphOS users certainly has no need for a Sam, and probably (or "obviously", given "the rather sparse feedback"?) most Sam owners who bought it to run OS4 lacks interest in MorphOS. Those interested in MorphOS or ever so slightly curious has probably already tried it by now. Or they can easily do it anytime they want, regardless of a Sam port.

    IMHO, a Sam port is nothing but a detour, a diversion of development focus that will bring nothing positive at all to the MorphOS platform in the end. Frankly, I was very surprised to see it announced in the first place. But not quite as surprised to see that it may be put on ice at this time.

    Had it been new HW from Acube ("new" meaning at least semi-modern, performance wise by 2013 standards, or at least a lot better than MorphOS has right now with the Mac PPC HW, instead of the sub-Peg2 Sam), then it would perhaps have been a different matter. However, in the end, being tied to PPC means a zero-sum game of users within an ever shrinking Amiga community. The only way of attracting fresh interest is to migrate to some HW within "normal people's" reach...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »16.08.13 - 23:10
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2794 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    The threshold of trying out MorphOS isn't very high at all.......


    You missed the point of my entire message. If they decide to go forward with the port to the 460 (and I don't care if they do or don't), a few owners of SAM 460 systems that won't bother to buy or borrow a used Mac PPC system, might download and try MorphOS on their SAM 460, just because they have one and it won't cost them anything to try MorphOS3.x at that point in time.

    The number of SAM 460 owners is quite small, and the number of those owners who would be interested in trying MorphOS is even smaller, so "YES", the return on the investment of time to do the port will be very poor, at least in my opinion and apparently in yours as well.

    The other point is that there are some users who are interested in running both AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS3.x on one system as their preferred choice, but they also prefer new hardware instead of buying used gear, and some people just hate Apple hardware and the company.

    But as I already stated, the number of new potential users is so small, it is not the usual wise choice of the MorphOS Dev. Team to support such hardware. It will however take away the one complaint that some people have of there not being any NEW hardware currently available for purchase to run MorphOS3.x on (not counting NOS Efika systems, or motherboards).

    [ Edited by amigadave 17.08.2013 - 03:38 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »17.08.13 - 11:34
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there are some users who are interested in running both AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS3.x
    > on one system as their preferred choice, but they also prefer new hardware instead
    > of buying used gear

    Yes, and even if they don't mind buying used gear they would have to come across an offering of a Pegasos II, which is not an ordinary incident to say the least.

    > It will however take away the one complaint that some people have of there not being
    > any NEW hardware currently available for purchase to run MorphOS3.x on

    Exactly. And this has even been communicated by the MorphOS Team as the major inducement to undertake this port.
  • »17.08.13 - 12:02
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 566 from 2007/12/11
    From: Greece
    In general, what I am trying to say is that it would be cool to have access to new, affordable hardware that would be able to boot both MorphOS and AmigaOS.

    Ok I just noticed from Acube's site that the Sam 440EP is out of production. However is not that OLD -it has been out during the last five years so it still got life to live and it is still supported officially by Acube. It would be a good alternative to Pegasos 2 with the big plus of the still active support of it by mother company.

    Have seen some -used- Sam 440EPs to sold out for reasonable prices around. Actually it is the cheapest hardware option for someone to run AmigaOS 4.1. Why not MorphOS as well?
  • »18.08.13 - 13:28
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    CountRaven wrote:
    In general, what I am trying to say is that it would be cool to have access to new, affordable hardware that would be able to boot both MorphOS and AmigaOS.

    Ok I just noticed from Acube's site that the Sam 440EP is out of production. However is not that OLD -it has been out during the last five years so it still got life to live and it is still supported officially by Acube. It would be a good alternative to Pegasos 2 with the big plus of the still active support of it by mother company.

    Have seen some -used- Sam 440EPs to sold out for reasonable prices around. Actually it is the cheapest hardware option for someone to run AmigaOS 4.1. Why not MorphOS as well?



    Because a used PowerMac is cheaper than a used Sam 440 and much faster too?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »18.08.13 - 14:14
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Quote:

    Have seen some -used- Sam 440EPs to sold out for reasonable prices around. Actually it is the cheapest hardware option for someone to run AmigaOS 4.1. Why not MorphOS as well?


    Because it's a weak and relative expensive alternative to buying used macs? And because it's still much easier to find someone to repair a 10 year old used mac than a 5 year old used SAM?

    The only point of buying these boards would be that they are produced now and comes with a warranty. Without that, I really don't see the point of all that work porting to it myself.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »18.08.13 - 14:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I just noticed from Acube's site that the Sam 440EP is out of production.

    Sam440ep-flex still available at 667 and 733 MHz from ACube:

    https://acube-systemsbiz.serversicuro.it/shop/en/5-sam-motherboards

    I don't know if those are just remaining stock, though.

    > It would be a good alternative to Pegasos 2

    Performance-wise, the Pegasos 2 wipes the floor even with the fastest Sam440.
  • »18.08.13 - 16:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I just noticed from Acube's site that the Sam 440EP is out of production.

    Sam440ep-flex still available at 667 and 733 MHz from ACube:

    https://acube-systemsbiz.serversicuro.it/shop/en/5-sam-motherboards

    I don't know if those are just remaining stock, though.

    > It would be a good alternative to Pegasos 2

    Performance-wise, the Pegasos 2 wipes the floor even with the fastest Sam440.


    I've not seen a Peg2 for sale for a couple of years now, which is a shame as I'd like to have one to play with OS4 and compare it with MOS on the same hardware.

    I regret not buying one when they were new now but I had other priorities at the time. :/
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »18.08.13 - 16:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Performance-wise, the Pegasos 2 wipes the floor even with the fastest Sam440.

    > I'd like to have one to play with OS4 and compare it with MOS on the same hardware.

    One would imagine you'd be an avid proponent of the Sam460 port then :-)
  • »18.08.13 - 22:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Performance-wise, the Pegasos 2 wipes the floor even with the fastest Sam440.

    > I'd like to have one to play with OS4 and compare it with MOS on the same hardware.

    One would imagine you'd be an avid proponent of the Sam460 port then :-)


    I'm neither for nor against it mate, it costs far too much than I'm willing to pay for a machine.

    If a cheap Peg2 came my way on the other hand......
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »19.08.13 - 00:06
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Here is one Pegasos for sale:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genesi-Pegasos-2-NextGen-Amiga-PPC-Can-run-MorphOS-3-2-Linux-OS-X-MacOS-etc-/261264829208?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item3cd498eb18

    However, it doesn't seem possible to buy AOS 4.1 for Pegasos anymore. At least not in the Amiga online stores I looked.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »19.08.13 - 00:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it doesn't seem possible to buy AOS 4.1 for Pegasos anymore. At least not in the
    > Amiga online stores I looked.

    It seems to be available from those stores:

    Amedia
    AmiStore
    Gentle Eye
    Relec


    Edit 1:
    https://twitter.com/acubesystems/status/514136120343666688

    Edit 2:
    https://acube-systemsbiz.serversicuro.it/shop/en/software/51-amigaos-41-for-sam-boards.html
    http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=862

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 25.10.2014 - 20:50 ]
  • »19.08.13 - 00:51
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Here is one Pegasos for sale:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genesi-Pegasos-2-NextGen-Amiga-PPC-Can-run-MorphOS-3-2-Linux-OS-X-MacOS-etc-/261264829208?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item3cd498eb18


    Well spotted, thanks! Shame I'm too skint to buy it at the moment though.

    Quote:

    However, it doesn't seem possible to buy AOS 4.1 for Pegasos anymore. At least not in the Amiga online stores I looked.


    That's not a problem for me.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »19.08.13 - 00:57
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    CountRaven
    Posts: 566 from 2007/12/11
    From: Greece
    Quote:

    > I just noticed from Acube's site that the Sam 440EP is out of production.

    Sam440ep-flex still available at 667 and 733 MHz from ACube:

    https://acube-systemsbiz.serversicuro.it/shop/en/5-sam-motherboards

    I don't know if those are just remaining stock, though.



    Quote:

    > It would be a good alternative to Pegasos 2

    Quote:



    Performance-wise, the Pegasos 2 wipes the floor even with the fastest Sam440.




    Well I mean this very first model anyway,
    http://acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=1
    yep the 440EP Flex models are available.

    Of course a Peg2 is faster than a SAM and to me Peg2 is the ultimate machine it can run everything.

    But in the case of a MorphOS port on Sam440 / 460 Sam would be the newer hardware available to be abel to run both AmigaOS 4.1 and MorphOS and this would be the big difference with Macs. Just this. Macs are faster and cheaper but unable to run both OSes only by this point of view a port to 440 / 460 would be interesting.

    And I want to say this. The rule about the Mac "cheap" machines is not a standard. To buy a used PPC Mac for a cheap price I got to buy it from ebay or from abroad. In Greece this cheap price is not always an option. In this case -buying from abroad- the cheap is becoming expensive. Why? Because of the postage... And you have to be anxious if the machine would come stable and working and not broken.

    The same goes for all those Radeon cards needed for MorphOS. Have you tried to locate a Radeon Mac edition and check the prices on ebay?

    I wanted a Powerbook the higher model and the general price I located back on the day when I was searching was 400 euros (ebay etc) for a great quality machine. Well this is not cheap.

    I know that everyone would shoot me on the face for this and would post 1000 links of cheap products on ebay now. But I wish I would have the option to buy all this stuff deadly cheap from my country -as many of you describe on your posts- and not from the other part of the planet.

    The exception in this case could be the Mac Mini.

    I love MorphOS port on the PowerMacs and I will support it till the end but with those last words I wanted to express my personal experience about the cheap used Apple hardware. Well this is not a rule.


    [ Edited by CountRaven 19.08.2013 - 12:27 ]
  • »19.08.13 - 09:39
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
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    > Our original plans to support 460 got massively delayed already and even there is quite
    > some low level work still ahead. With all the additional issues showing up in public [...],
    > it's not even sure if that will ever see the light of day anytime soon

    I stumbled upon an interesting statement:

    "I found a guy from IBM which is a kind of ppc guru. He told me that the main cause of problems is the cpu itself (AMCC 460ex), as it lacks cache coherency."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37083&forum=33&start=20#718922

    And I have found what reads like the original statements from the IBM guy:

    "for the 460EX, I am not surprised things aren't working with KMS & DRI2... the 460 is not cache coherent"
    http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2012-February/019157.html

    "You will run into additional problems with 460 due to the fact that it's not cache coherent for DMA."
    http://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/linuxppc-dev/2012-March/096888.html

    "DMA on 46x isn't cache coherent. The DRM plays interesting games with mapping/unmapping pages for DMA by the chip and I don't think we have the right hooks to do the appropriate cache flushing on these guys"
    http://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/linuxppc-dev/2012-March/096925.html

    Is this contributing to the porting difficulty? I remember that Piru once said that MorphOS required cache coherency which he presented as reason that MorphOS couldn't be ported to MPC512x. If a MorphOS port to PPC460EX lacking cache coherency is possible, would that mean that a port to MPC512x is possible as well?
  • »11.10.13 - 01:33
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12079 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > just stay away from aw.net and amigans.net that way you avoid most of the looney tunes nutters.

    With this opinion you're in good company apparently:

    "the forums of AmigaWorld and Amigans.net [...] are mostly dominated by trolls and bad attitude anyway."
    http://hkvalhea1-500.blogspot.com/2013/09/its-not-about-obsession.html

    ;-)
  • »23.10.13 - 23:34
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