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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    The USA bomb, invade and occupy Vietnam, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya plus countless other nations and directly fund and control the violent overthrow of a democratically elected Government in the Ukraine == "Good".

    Russia puts troops on alert to defend citizens who consider themselves to be Russian in an autonomous region of the Ukraine that was part of Russia until Khrushchev changed it's borders in 1954 from hardcore right-wing Neo-Nazis who want to kill all Russians = "Bad".

    This world is so fucked up it's not funny anymore.
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  • »06.03.14 - 10:53
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    imax
    Posts: 41 from 2004/9/20
    From: Russia
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    The USA bomb, invade and occupy Vietnam, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya plus countless other nations and directly fund and control the violent overthrow of a democratically elected Government in the Ukraine == "Good".

    Russia puts troops on alert to defend citizens who consider themselves to be Russian in an autonomous region of the Ukraine that was part of Russia until Khrushchev changed it's borders in 1954 from hardcore right-wing Neo-Nazis who want to kill all Russians = "Bad".

    This world is so fucked up it's not funny anymore.


    You are witnessing the birth of a new geopolitical world without U.S. domination. Good luck.
  • »06.03.14 - 11:18
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1885 from 2003/3/5
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    ...


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969

    Apparently your government does not believe it's bad... or at least that Russian interests in the UK are more important.
  • »06.03.14 - 11:39
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    ...


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969

    Apparently your government does not believe it's bad... or at least that Russian interests in the UK are more important.


    Money talks. When it comes to ideology vs money, money wins every time here.

    I find this latest development interesting though, will the US/EU accept "the will of the people" in the Crimea like they accept "the will of the people" in Kiev?

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26465962
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  • »06.03.14 - 12:15
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1885 from 2003/3/5
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    I find this latest development interesting though, will the US/EU accept "the will of the people" in the Crimea like they accept "the will of the people" in Kiev?



    You mean the referendum should hold some legitimacy with Russian army occupying the land to "ensure security of the voters"? :)
  • »06.03.14 - 12:21
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4861 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    I find this latest development interesting though, will the US/EU accept "the will of the people" in the Crimea like they accept "the will of the people" in Kiev?



    You mean the referendum should hold some legitimacy with Russian army occupying the land to "ensure security of the voters"? :)


    Good luck to all of you.
    We're not likely to get involved in this one.

    But the parallel that really comes to mind is Poland and East Germany after WWII.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.03.14 - 12:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    I find this latest development interesting though, will the US/EU accept "the will of the people" in the Crimea like they accept "the will of the people" in Kiev?



    You mean the referendum should hold some legitimacy with Russian army occupying the land to "ensure security of the voters"? :)


    Yeah, just like the American army "occupying the land" in Kosovo to "ensure security of the voters". :)
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  • »06.03.14 - 12:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    I find this latest development interesting though, will the US/EU accept "the will of the people" in the Crimea like they accept "the will of the people" in Kiev?



    You mean the referendum should hold some legitimacy with Russian army occupying the land to "ensure security of the voters"? :)


    Good luck to all of you.
    We're not likely to get involved in this one.

    But the parallel that really comes to mind is Poland and East Germany after WWII.


    The better parallel is Serbia/Ukraine and Kosovo/Crimea.
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  • »06.03.14 - 12:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1367 from 2003/4/13
    Obama is incompetent and Putin is playing him for a chump. The US won't do anything either way here, so good luck when the bullets start to fly.
  • »06.03.14 - 12:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Obama is incompetent and Putin is playing him for a chump. The US won't do anything either way here, so good luck when the bullets start to fly.


    Why should the US do anything anyway? It's not their business.
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  • »06.03.14 - 13:01
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    cheesegrate
    Posts: 35 from 2004/8/25
    From: north queensla...
    obama-putin-phone-call.jpg

    ukrainians will get their version of economic'shock therapy' shortly, curtesy of IMF/USA etc. Already leaked documents say they will cut the pension in half and slash gas subsidies. Oh did you hear that extreme right (ie fascist) factions of the demonstraters had snipers that shot at both police and the protestors to push the coup forward?
    "http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/
    from veterans today "Snipers began shooting into the crowd on February 22 in Maidan or Independence Square. Panic ensued and riot police retreated in panic according to eyewitnesses. The opposition leader Vitali Klitschko withdrew from the deal, no reason given. Yanukovich fled Kiev. The question unanswered until now is who deployed the snipers? According to veteran US intelligence sources, the snipers came from an ultra-right-wing military organization known as Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian People’s Self-Defense (UNA-UNSO).

    [ Edited by cheesegrate 06.03.2014 - 23:25 ]
  • »06.03.14 - 13:17
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  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1936 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Occupy; Ukraine -> Belarus -> Lithuania -> Latvia -> Estonia -> Finland = Russia closer to EU finland, as always wanted
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »06.03.14 - 13:22
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4861 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Serbia/Ukraine and Kosovo/Crimea?

    A better parallel?

    I don't see that as at all parallel.
    Although I would prefer that we stay out of other country's politics entirely.

    As Red echoed, good luck.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.03.14 - 13:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Serbia/Ukraine and Kosovo/Crimea?

    A better parallel?

    I don't see that as at all parallel.
    Although I would prefer that we stay out of other country's politics entirely.

    As Red echoed, good luck.


    US army invades Serbia to "protect" ethnic Albanians in Kosovo who then declare independence from Serbia.

    Russian army "invades" Ukraine to "protect" ethnic Russians in Crimea who then declare independence from Ukraine.

    There is no difference.
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  • »06.03.14 - 13:40
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4861 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    That could be their end goal, now that you mention it Nik.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.03.14 - 14:06
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 955 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Russia puts troops on alert


    I would hardly call an occupation of an autonomous region of Ukraine, capturing the Ukrainian military bases and blocking their navy forces as "putting troops on alert".

    Quote:

    to defend citizens who consider themselves to be Russian


    If Mr Putin would like to defend citizens of... say... Scotland (an autonomous region of UK) who consider themselves to be Russian by deploying his army there would you still think that's OK?

    Quote:

    region of the Ukraine that was part of Russia until Khrushchev changed it's borders in 1954


    ...and was part of Crimean Khanate for centuries before being annexed by Russian Empire in 1783? Maybe Germany should consider a full scale attack on Wrocław (former Breslau) and Szczecin (former Stettin), that were part of Germany until Stalin changed both German and Polish borders in 1944 and 1945? (Poland did lost Kresy then, with Lviv (Lwów) - Ukraine now, Brest (Brześć) - Belarus, Vilnus (Wilno) - Lithuania. Should we attack/occupy them all now reclaiming what's "ours")?

    Quote:

    from hardcore right-wing Neo-Nazis who want to kill all Russians = "Bad".


    Wow. Just "Wow". You must be watching too much Russian TV, mate.
  • »06.03.14 - 16:10
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2606 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Serbia/Ukraine and Kosovo/Crimea?

    A better parallel?

    I don't see that as at all parallel.
    Although I would prefer that we stay out of other country's politics entirely.

    As Red echoed, good luck.


    US army invades Serbia to "protect" ethnic Albanians in Kosovo who then declare independence from Serbia.

    Russian army "invades" Ukraine to "protect" ethnic Russians in Crimea who then declare independence from Ukraine.

    There is no difference.


    I see many differences, like that in the post Yugoslavia breakdown there was a series of real civil wars with horrendous and extremely brutal slaughter of civilians and systematic ethnic cleansing, and UN (as in United Nations, not US) did some pathetic tries to intervene. There was certainly no US invation, it was a UN intervention (in which many nations participated under UN flag), and if anything can be said about that, it's probably that it was way too little, way too late.

    In Ukraine, there was no civil war, no butchering of civilians, no ethnic cleansing, no war crimes, no nothing! Nothing at all!

    The Russian population in Ukraine has in no way been threatened by anyone, they have simply lived their lives like every day, like "OK, today is Monday, time to go to work, wonder what we shall have for dinner tonight", then "OK, today it's Tuesday, time to go to work, wonder what we shall have for dinner tonight", and then "OK, today it's Wednesday, time to go to work, wonder what we shall have for dinner tonight, oh, and there certainly seems to be a lot of anonymized Russian soldiers in the streets today".

    This annexing of Ukrainian territory is illegal by any means and measures, it's a blatant crime, it's totally uncalled for, it's disgusting, and it's a behavior that could maybe have been passed 200 years ago, but certainly not today.

    Until they have fully withdrawn, Russia should, and probably will, suffer the effects of economic, political and diplomatic isolation, hopefully a complete freeze-out from the rest of the world community with travel and trade restrictions.

    This whole thing is just so darn sad and strange, and almost as bizarre as North Korea in their logic and dealings with the rest of the world community. I mean, here Russia has spent enormous amounts of money to get into the world spotlights, like by hosting the Eurovision Song Contest, the Olympic Games, and other big sports events, etc, to show off as a nation that isn't that old, grey, backwards Soviet state anymore, but something modern, something new, with culture, technology and 21st century values and spirit. Only to completely raze it all in a heartbeat by adopting dark-ages laws against homosexuals and illegally annexing neighbor countries for made-up reasons that the entire world (that isn't fed by the Russian state-controlled un-free media's propaganda, lying about "threats", "protection", etc) understands is pure lies and bullshit. And in a heart-beat all those years of efforts and enormous amounts of money invested into putting up a positive appearance to the world is completely eradicated, and Russia comes through as a savage bastard state with no reason, no logic, and a complete disrespect for others.

    Maybe some day Russia will become a true democracy, with proper rule of law, with real elections, with free media, and a 21st century view of human beings and foreign affairs. But evidently, it still has a long way to go.
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  • »06.03.14 - 16:54
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1179 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    In Ukraine, there was no civil war, no butchering of civilians, no ethnic cleansing, no war crimes, no nothing! Nothing at all!

    According to the Ukrainian Ministry of Health, the official death toll for the recent demonstrations in Kiev is 95.
  • »06.03.14 - 18:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2606 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    In Ukraine, there was no civil war, no butchering of civilians, no ethnic cleansing, no war crimes, no nothing! Nothing at all!

    According to the Ukrainian Ministry of Health, the official death toll for the recent demonstrations in Kiev is 95.


    Indeed very tragic, but the demonstrations/riots in Ukraine can hardly be compared to the civil war, ethnic cleansing, butchering of whole villages and other war crimes that occured when Yugoslavia broke up, right? The comparison is ridiculous. And it wasn't Russians that was singled out and killed, it was a sad outcome of riots/demonstration against Yanukovych. The parliament finally impeached him, he fled abroad, and a new government was formed. *THEN* is when the Russian armed forces enters and starts annexing. There has never been any threat against Russian civilians in Ukraine, that's a BS argument and a very poor excuse, and demonstrations out of control is a matter for the police, it's not a reason for military invasion of other countries, especially not when it's already over. BTW, Ukraine has now made a formal request to Interpol for Yanukovych's arrest. I suppose he has a lot to answer for regarding what happened during those demonstrations.
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  • »06.03.14 - 20:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1919 from 2003/6/4
    All involved paties have their own agenda. It is very difficult to get a picture from outside. I'd say our Government (i.e. in my case Berlin and Brussels) should keep as neutral as possible and don't take any side but help humanitary wher help is needed.

    The Ukrainia revolution is fishy (fascists involved, EU, US involved).
    The Ukrainian old government was fishy, too (to say the least, but so was the outcome of the orange revolution)
    Russias activities are fishy (military intervention is no option!).
    US activities is fishy (F*ck the EU Nuland and the likes) .
    EU's activies are fishy (Mrs. Ashton and EU money).
    Germany's activities are fishy (the German minister for foreign affais Mr. Steinmeier met with fascists! That is really unbeliveable, especially with our historical heritrage about fascism).
    I am really sorry for the Ukrainian average Joe who just wants to live a normal life. They are the victims of
    all this dangerous geostrategical gambling.


    The EU should approach Russia and vice versa. Russia is not the Soviet Union. But the politics pursued by all parties now will lead to a cold war 2.0. Too many ppl with huge egos involved...
    I don't want that. Definitely not!
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »06.03.14 - 20:33
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1179 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    In Ukraine, there was no civil war, no butchering of civilians, no ethnic cleansing, no war crimes, no nothing! Nothing at all!

    According to the Ukrainian Ministry of Health, the official death toll for the recent demonstrations in Kiev is 95.


    Quote: "In Ukraine, there was" (..) "no nothing! Nothing at all!"

    A death toll of 95 is hardly "nothing at all" but you obviously disagree.


    Quote:

    Indeed very tragic, but the demonstrations/riots in Ukraine can hardly be compared to the civil war, ethnic cleansing, butchering of whole villages and other war crimes that occured when Yugoslavia broke up, right? The comparison is ridiculous. And it wasn't Russians that was singled out and killed, it was a sad outcome of riots/demonstration against Yanukovych.

    Would you care to say who supposedly made this comparison except for yourself?
  • »06.03.14 - 20:40
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rebraist
    Posts: 96 from 2011/4/6
    From: Naples, Italy
    I'm italian. And in my feelings both Russia and U.S.A. are friend countries, really.
    Here in Naples there's a strong community of russians, ukrainians and other people from various parts in the world. I know some russian guys have opened a green grocer shop near my house and they are really clever people. Other ukrainian have a delicatessen shop near here. Really both good people.
    In my parish (I'm a catholic) we host a russian orthodox little community with their priest. I see boys, girls, women, men and their children attending their mass, and sometimes the catholic priest and the orthodox one pray with both the people, in italian or in russian. I listened to some russian hymn to the virgin Mary that are simply beautiful.
    Near here there's the nato navy base with american military people. I went to school, when I was a kid with the son of one of them. I remember his name was Joseph. His father was an italo-american so he wanted the child go to the italian school. Very nice people indeed. I learnt with him that the hamster can be a nice pet.
    Well. I think we must simply not think the world belong to one or another. I think we must go beyond. American, Russian, African (we are plenty of poor guys here that come from Africa searching for a bunch of luck in their lives, women and men that work for just a few cents, just to survive).
    I think if we meet one each other in a simple way, without a computer, well we'll be very similar as my feelings are similar to those russian when i pray with them or with my kid american friend, Joseph when we played with an hamster. I remember when I was a child and I went to a camping in Europe or Asia, well the first things, we children learnt one from each other were the "bad words". Smiling and laughing. I didn't speak a single word of english, german, french or whatever other language, but I can swear, we german, italian, english, french, spanish kids understood bad words in every language.
    And soon after we always started to play together.
    Let's learn by the kids.


    [ Edited by rebraist 06.03.2014 - 21:48 ]
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  • »06.03.14 - 20:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1919 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma schrieb:
    There has never been any threat against Russian civilians in Ukraine,.


    The new Ukrainian government has some fascists (Svoboda, formally known as socialistic national party of Ukrainia) involved. It's hard to judge how big their power and influence actually really is. But it is inacceptable anyway. They aren't just a bit patriotic,m no theya are really trying to be like the German NSDAP was. I would be pretty afraid if such ppl would be involved in my government and would probably think about leaving the country. Exaggerating? Maybe, but I as German actually know what fascism is about and must say "Principiis obsta!"
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »06.03.14 - 20:49
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    XDelusion
    Posts: 602 from 2010/10/27
    From Russia With Love Bone...

    ...Great Trailer Park Boys episode! :)
    "I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it." - Jack Handey

    Registered MorphOS user, Amiga user, and Atari 8-bit user.
  • »06.03.14 - 21:10
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