Why not older PS3 OtherOS as target?
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    PS3 will go lower the ever, has great CPU, nice GFX and Blue Ray?

    Surely just 256MB fast RAM requires vmem to be used, but if such great games could fit why not some stripped down MOS for it?

    Yellow Dog Linux, Linux Mint PPC and several Linux distros work nice and reliable and that could be also SMP target (Cell CPU is interesting) and BlueRay could be achieved there why giving it gaming edge too ...

    Please consider it, if OS4 team was aked for it way more then MacMini ports but ignored user requests as usual.
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  • »10.01.14 - 04:48
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1940 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    When you say older ps3s, you should say the ancient ps3s. Linux has not been a possibility on PS3 for a long looong loooooooong time.

    Read more
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  • »10.01.14 - 06:11
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    analogkid
    Posts: 580 from 2004/11/3
    From: near myself
    I don't think a PS3 port would make any sense. Too few RAM, and the "Other OS" option is disabled in the latest firmware versions. The various G4 and G5 Macs are the best option for available PowerPC hardware with a great value for money.

    If you want some exotic MorphOS hardware disregarding the value for money, you should consider a SAM460 (in the more or less near future), or maybe the X1000 successor (in the more or less distant future).
  • »10.01.14 - 08:20
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    jPV
    Posts: 1659 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    that could be also SMP target (Cell CPU is interesting)


    I don't think being just interesting would be good reason to go support something with these resources. I think that when the step is taken for SMP and other features, CPU should be something which is popular, affordable and will be available to a distant future.
  • »10.01.14 - 09:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > PS3 will go lower the ever

    http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/eu/?phist=352119 -> minimum price in 09/2011, currently 33% above that
    http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/eu/?phist=360632 -> minimum price in 03/2010, currently 45% above that

    > has great CPU

    For desktop purposes not so much.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6993&start=66

    > nice GFX

    The hypervisor prevents OtherOS access to the 3D part of the RSX GPU. And it's Nvidia anyway.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6993&start=41

    > and Blue Ray? [...] BlueRay could be achieved there why giving it gaming edge too

    No UDF 2.50+ support on MorphOS.

    > that could be also SMP target (Cell CPU is interesting)

    The only SMP-relevant part in the Cell CPU is the dual-threaded PPE. That's not even two full cores, so there'd be better targets for implementing SMP.
  • »10.01.14 - 10:34
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    When you say older ps3s, you should say the ancient ps3s. Linux has not been a possibility on PS3 for a long looong loooooooong time.

    Read more


    I do know, its possible to downgrade flash on some models.
    Be smart and read about hacks.

    Anyway, RAM fucks da PS, but if games can fit it :-)
    GFX and CPU are great.

    Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

    Its price will go low low low as PS4 mania progresses
    and you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU with many SPUs ...

    Grrr ... they could fit at least 512MB, does MOS have virtual memory?
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  • »10.01.14 - 14:14
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    > that could be also SMP target (Cell CPU is interesting)

    The only SMP-relevant part in the Cell CPU is the dual-threaded PPE. That's not even two full cores, so there'd be better targets for implementing SMP.


    Dont underestimate PPUs and check which and how great games exist.

    PPUs enable one unit for e.g. AI, other for textures and is a small super computer.

    CELL is NOT out of production.

    OK, you say PS3 is nothin, try making such affordable board even with 256MB RAM.

    I see it as Efika+ with great games.

    And will run Mint 11 on it.

    EDIT: Fixed wrong use of quote tags.

    [ Edited by ASiegel 10.01.2014 - 14:29 ]
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  • »10.01.14 - 14:16
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1982 from 2003/2/24
    Nvidia -> no go
    Hypervisor -> no go
    Cell != SMP -> no go
    Otter OS disabled on most units -> no go
    256MB -> only go to the next baker

    It's not a trick, it's a Sony -> absolute no go
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  • »10.01.14 - 14:42
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4901 from 2009/1/28
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    we looked into the Cell BE quite awhile ago.
    I even went as far as contacting IBM.
    With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to applications outside gaming.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 14:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > its possible to downgrade flash on some models.

    Only on models the required firmware version was originally released for, which means pre-slim models.

    > GFX and CPU are great. [...] you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU

    If you say so...

    > with many SPUs ...

    MorphOS would have to implement support for them first. I doubt this would be worthwile given that such code wouldn't be usable on any other current or future MorphOS platform.

    > Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

    Such hacking would be no basis for undertaking a MorphOS port.

    > does MOS have virtual memory?

    In case you mean memory paging/swapping, the answer is no.
  • »10.01.14 - 15:01
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  • MorphOS Developer
    cyfm
    Posts: 403 from 2003/4/11
    From: Germany
    It won't happen. Case closed.
  • »10.01.14 - 15:09
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> The only SMP-relevant part in the Cell CPU is the dual-threaded PPE. That's not
    >> even two full cores, so there'd be better targets for implementing SMP.

    > Dont underestimate PPUs and check which and how great games exist.

    I'm well aware of what the PPE/PPU is capable of, and what it's not. The reasons such good PS3 games exist are the GPU and the SPEs/SPUs, not the PPE/PPU.

    > PPUs enable one unit for e.g. AI, other for textures and is a small super computer.

    You are confusing the SPEs/SPUs with the single (dual-threaded) Power Architecture PPE/PPU.

    > CELL is NOT out of production.

    ...but the OtherOS-capable PS3 models are.

    > you say PS3 is nothin

    No, I say PS3 is not suitable for MorphOS due to the reasons mentioned.

    > try making such affordable board even with 256MB RAM.

    I'm not a board designer, so surely won't try making any board, no matter the amount of RAM.
  • »10.01.14 - 15:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to
    > applications outside gaming.

    That's not a fair statement to make. There are many more applications than gaming where the Cell concept shines, such as imaging, video processing, network processing, geophysical and climatic simulation etc., in short every task that can be split into several (identical or distinct) sub-tasks whose results don't depend too much on one another.
    It should be noted that game makers have said they were struggling to exploit the Cell concept for game programming. I remember I read that the code of even those games exploiting the Cell the best couldn't be parallelized enough to use more than 3 or 4 SPEs.
  • »10.01.14 - 15:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4901 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to
    > applications outside gaming.

    That's not a fair statement to make. There are many more applications than gaming where the Cell concept shines, such as imaging, video processing, network processing, geophysical and climatic simulation etc., in short every task that can be split into several (identical or distinct) sub-tasks whose results don't depend too much on one another.
    It should be noted that game makers have said they were struggling to exploit the Cell concept for game programming. I remember I read that the code of even those games exploiting the Cell the best couldn't be parallelized enough to use more than 3 or 4 SPEs.


    Interesting Andreas,
    But if I am not mistaken, you don't code.
    The SPEs don't make up for the performance penalty branching creates.
    And you yourself quoted the low dmips figures for the PPE.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 16:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to
    >>> applications outside gaming.

    >> That's not a fair statement to make. There are many more applications than gaming
    >> where the Cell concept shines, such as imaging, video processing, network processing,
    >> geophysical and climatic simulation etc. [...]. It should be noted that game makers
    >> have said they were struggling to exploit the Cell concept for game programming.

    > if I am not mistaken, you don't code.

    I don't think any of my statements require me to be a coder to make them. The fields of applications for the Cell result from its hardware architecture, which is well documented. And regarding game programming for the Cell I didn't give my personal opinion but recited statements I read from actual game coders.

    > The SPEs don't make up for the performance penalty branching creates.

    With applications where there's no heavy branching taking place, like the ones I listed for you, the Cell's SPEs don't have to make up for it. On the contrary, the SPEs can display their full power with those. Modern gaming on the other hand does use a good amount of branching so it's effortful to use the Cell to capacity with game code (at least that's what actual game developers said about it).

    > you yourself quoted the low dmips figures for the PPE.

    The PPE has got nothing to do with the applications I listed for the SPEs. With those applications, the PPE merely distributes the actual work to the SPEs and collects the results upon its completion. And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.
  • »10.01.14 - 17:12
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4901 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.


    That is one area where our opinions differ.
    It seems quite well suited to gaming.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 17:27
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1229 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ Jim

    Andreas wrote "modern gaming", not just "gaming".

    Even if you compare the PPE to the CPU found in Microsoft's old and oudated XBOX 360, it seems rather slow. Nevermind how much faster the current generation of consoles are.
  • »10.01.14 - 18:25
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Nvidia -> no go
    Hypervisor -> no go
    Cell != SMP -> no go
    Otter OS disabled on most units -> no go
    256MB -> only go to the next baker

    It's not a trick, it's a Sony -> absolute no go


    Hey, why not 1,2,3 ... 4 can be reflashed ... and 4 make a cut down version and use Vmem ... its a great platform and if it can run modern games, why not MOS?

    Hypervisor is gogo, and Cell is PPC32 compatibile.

    But OK, its hard work just for me, so no go.

    Anyway, beside PS3 Cell is used only in supercomputers.
    If it had Radeon and more RAM it would be a programmers wet dream
    and users cheapest fun.
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  • »10.01.14 - 18:28
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    > GFX and CPU are great. [...] you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU

    If you say so...

    No, IBM sais so

    > with many SPUs ...

    MorphOS would have to implement support for them first. I doubt this would be worthwile given that such code wouldn't be usable on any other current or future MorphOS platform.

    I know, there are special SDKs to target Cell, but ... that would be step closer
    to something others dont have. I havent seen any other PPU CPU.


    > Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

    Such hacking would be no basis for undertaking a MorphOS port.

    And using Apples is? Cmon, Amiga stylee!

    > does MOS have virtual memory?

    In case you mean memory paging/swapping, the answer is no.

    Oh, one bad feature OS4 has. Run dem out!

    EDIT: Had to fix quote tags. Yet again...

    [ Edited by ASiegel 10.01.2014 - 18:56 ]
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  • »10.01.14 - 18:29
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1940 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    When you say older ps3s, you should say the ancient ps3s. Linux has not been a possibility on PS3 for a long looong loooooooong time.

    Read more


    I do know, its possible to downgrade flash on some models.
    Be smart and read about hacks.



    I have a hacked PS3 and actively follow whats going on. I know every single trick to hack PS3.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »10.01.14 - 19:26
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    When you say older ps3s, you should say the ancient ps3s. Linux has not been a possibility on PS3 for a long looong loooooooong time.

    Read more


    I do know, its possible to downgrade flash on some models.
    Be smart and read about hacks.



    I have a hacked PS3 and actively follow whats going on. I know every single trick to hack PS3.


    You are my man, I ll let you know once I get one about end of this year,

    What do you recommend YDL 6.x or Linux Mint 11?
    ------------------------------------------
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  • »10.01.14 - 19:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

    > That is one area where our opinions differ.

    Huh? You really think that the PPE alone is not less suited to modern gaming than PPE+SPEs? Why do PS3 games make use of the SPEs then? Wouldn't it be easier to just use the PPE and ignore the hard-to-program SPEs if the result can be the same or even better without them?

    > It seems quite well suited to gaming.

    The PPE is a dual-threaded in-order 64-bit Power Architecture core with an ordinary AltiVec/VMX unit. I don't see anything in it that makes it particularly suited to gaming. There's a reason why Sony wanted to have it accompanied by the SPEs and also why PS3 games use those SPEs.
  • »10.01.14 - 20:00
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1940 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    When you say older ps3s, you should say the ancient ps3s. Linux has not been a possibility on PS3 for a long looong loooooooong time.

    Read more


    I do know, its possible to downgrade flash on some models.
    Be smart and read about hacks.



    I have a hacked PS3 and actively follow whats going on. I know every single trick to hack PS3.


    You are my man, I ll let you know once I get one about end of this year,

    What do you recommend YDL 6.x or Linux Mint 11?


    I recommend 3tb harddrive and a few hundred games :)
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »10.01.14 - 20:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10997 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Nvidia -> no go
    >> Hypervisor -> no go
    >> Cell != SMP -> no go

    > Hey, why not

    The Nvidia and hypervisor restrictions you were already explained. Regarding SMP, as I said the dual-threaded PPE can be used with SMP but is probably not the best example to show its merits. Kronos probably refers to the fact that the Cell CPU as a whole (PPE+SPEs) is an asymmetric design, so the SPEs can't be used with SMP.

    >> Otter OS disabled on most units -> no go

    > can be reflashed

    To quote myself: Only on models the required firmware version was originally released for, which means pre-slim models.

    > Hypervisor is gogo

    The hypervisor itself does not prevent MorphOS from running, but it prevents full access to the RSX GPU by OtherOS (as already explained to you).

    > beside PS3 Cell is used only in supercomputers.

    It's also used in server blades, TV sets, video transcoding cards and probably several other things.

    > If it had Radeon and more RAM it would be a programmers wet dream and users cheapest fun.

    No, unless it also had no prevention of full GPU access by hypervisor and was still in production with OtherOS capability.
  • »10.01.14 - 20:39
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