MorphOS on X86, is it technically desirable ?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Brumiga
    Posts: 240 from 2004/4/3
    From: France
    Hello,

    I open this thread to stop polluting koszer's one about morphos counter. Here is the translation of a reply that I made on a similar thread on meta-morphos one year ago.

    I think we should stop fantasizing that way when in morphos on x86 in 32-bit or 64-bit. All those who wish to migrate to x86 morphos hope a generic x86 support. And their PC will be supported. But, that the pc neighbor, x y or z is supported that they have nothing to do.

    But it will not happen because the pc is:

    - 2 families of central processor
    - 2 families of graphic processor,
    - 2 families of memory,
    - 3 or 4 families chipsets.

    And perhaps other features that I do not inevitably think to.

    How can we expect anything ? Following the choices that will be made there will be a lot of disappointed people because their pc will not be retained. So what ? So the disappointed will open here full of topics to express their very great dissatisfaction. They will cry foul to be unsuccessful or forgotten.

    That is my opinion. Not that I reject any migration to another platform, but I'm not decision-making, no more than any other user. Do not forget ...

    Brumiga
  • »22.07.13 - 20:21
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    XDelusion
    Posts: 602 from 2010/10/27
    I dunno, unless there is something seriously flawed about ARM, I'd love to see MorphOS supporting that some day. In the mean time, I think MorphOS supports a vast amount of hardware and fine tuning what support we presently have would mean more to me than anything.
    "I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it." - Jack Handey

    Registered MorphOS user, Amiga user, and Atari 8-bit user.
  • »22.07.13 - 21:38
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > koszer's one about morphos counter.

    Technically, it's Charvel's thread ;-)

    > All those who wish to migrate to x86 morphos hope a generic x86 support.

    No, there are MorphOS users who understand that MorphOS on x86 would support only particular boards. That's why they propose specific hardware like x86 Macs or Lenovo machines.
  • »22.07.13 - 21:53
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:



    That is my opinion. Not that I reject any migration to another platform, but I'm not decision-making, no more than any other user. Do not forget ...

    Brumiga



    I think x64 is the way forward. PPC is nice, and while not as dead as some proclaim practically rather a dead end (no wide spread general computing hardware. And without SMP support by the OS the new QorIQ chips aren't interesting anyway and for proper SMP support you need to break compability anyway, so why not switching ISA to something more powerful and more easily available). I prefer X64 over ARM, because ARM is rather for closed designs and/or low end. It may come to teh desktop, but it may also fail there. Powerful x64 systms will stay for at lest 20 years in that domain with a significant market share (I guess even longer).
    Support for generic x64 boards will probably a bit too much, hence support for only a few selected configurations (albeit I don't like Apple too much, Apple hardware would be the most logical choice¹) would be the way out of that too-much-hardware-to-support dilemma.

    My stance on this: http://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm

    --
    ¹ I would aplaude to at least one alternative to Apple hardware, as Apple is a very emotional driven brand. Many ppl feel a strong dislike for that brand.I think Lenovo laptops would be nice, others seem to have a different view on Lenovo (Hooligan), but if not Lenovo then maybe Sony or even HP or some other brand that offers good business laptops.
    For desktops I personally don't care anymore.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 23.07.2013 - 00:01 ]
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »22.07.13 - 21:54
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    I myself don't care at all anymore. I'm too sick and tired of being a martyr that I would welcome x64 warmly. What I wouldn't be able to handle is taking the "underdog" path yet once again. The only ones seeing any glory in that are the dying ones. The rest of the world doesn't care.

    Having the right hw was very important to me back in the Amiga days in the 90's and I hated x86 and Windows intensly. Now, I just hate Windows and I want a Amiga-like alternative.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »23.07.13 - 09:28
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 245 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    I desire MorphOS on ARM processor, not Wintel processor.
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »23.07.13 - 13:17
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I desire MorphOS on ARM processor, not Wintel processor.

    Wouldn't the latter be "Morphtel" then anyway? ;-)
  • »23.07.13 - 13:35
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    XDelusion
    Posts: 602 from 2010/10/27
    If they did go x64, I would hope they would target machines that were not Apples this time. The current Apple machines are just over expensive PC's. Nothing more, nothing less. I'd say target the chip sets that Apple uses and we'd be good. Or target a different Chip set, just target something, but again, I'd really love to see ARM support. I'd like to see MorphOS on a tablet device, the Ouya, JXD S7300, an asus tablet, something. Most of those devices can be had from $100 and up, and assuming the ARM is not lacking in some way, that's a heck of a nice price for a system that has an OS that isn't very demanding at all.
    "I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it." - Jack Handey

    Registered MorphOS user, Amiga user, and Atari 8-bit user.
  • »23.07.13 - 15:42
    Profile Visit Website
  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    scrAb_
    Posts: 60 from 2010/7/23
    I'd like it the ARM way. But it seems that the Smartphone race, pushes the release/production of new processors at light speed.
    If the DevTeam should release the Morphos ARM version right now, which Soc would they target?
    My Galaxy Nexus and its OMAP 4460 seems a turtle compared to Qualcomm 800 series....
    MacMini@1.5Ghz 1GB/DualBoot Morphos3.1/DebianPPC - Efika MX sb
    PowerBook 5,9
  • »23.07.13 - 19:25
    Profile
  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    scrAb_
    Posts: 60 from 2010/7/23
    I'd like it the ARM way. But it seems that the Smartphone race, pushes the release/production of new processors at light speed.
    If the DevTeam should release the Morphos ARM version right now, which Soc would they target?
    My Galaxy Nexus and its OMAP 4460 seems a turtle compared to Qualcomm 800 series....
    MacMini@1.5Ghz 1GB/DualBoot Morphos3.1/DebianPPC - Efika MX sb
    PowerBook 5,9
  • »23.07.13 - 20:01
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 417 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:


    All those who wish to migrate to x86 morphos hope a generic x86 support. And their PC will be supported.


    I don't. Of course it won't fix the compatibility problem we currently have with PPC hardware and no: I wouldn't expect my PC to be supported. No one ever said a potential MorphOS x86 would be generic (just like no one said a PPC AmigaOS would be generic and run on any PPC hardware). Just like the current PowerPC situation, probably one or two manufacturers would be chosen and supported (just like MorphOS supports for example some Apple machines, Pegasos, and specific graphic cards).

    That said, one thing that would be solved is the availability, price, and performance problems. Better availability could mean more users/developers. That's about it. There's no magic involved. But at least this way MorphOS would be going forward...

    Maybe you should stop speaking for other people ?

    [ Edited by Leo 23.07.2013 - 20:46 ]
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »23.07.13 - 20:44
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:


    I prefer X64 over ARM, because ARM is rather for closed designs and/or low end. It may come to teh desktop, but it may also fail there.


    If there's a desktop to come to. The PC's market share is dropping rapidly - tablets already outsell PCs in the UK.

    Quote:

    Powerful x64 systms will stay for at lest 20 years in that domain with a significant market share (I guess even longer).


    I wouldn't bet on anything in 20 years time, the market is changing far to fast right now.
    The top end makes lots of profit by sells in relatively small numbers.
    The mass of the market is the low end and it's being eaten by tablets.

    That said, I don't think Intel will stop producing x86 chips anytime soon.
  • »23.07.13 - 22:24
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    I just wonder when or who is going to make this happen a switch to another architecture ? There's so many things to considers .. drivers for this, drivers for that ...

    And in how many years ? 10 ?
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »24.07.13 - 10:52
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I think if we see this ISA shift, then it will be to Apple machines as they are more standardized.
    I'd like to see SMP on a PPC first.
    And then a shift to ARM.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.13 - 02:56
    Profile
  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    If there was MorphOS for wintel I would ditch this Macmini in a heartbeat.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »26.07.13 - 04:21
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    And what hardware would we standardize on then?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.13 - 04:38
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    pick a high quality motherboard from GigaByte or as such that is made in mass production and let the users build there system around it ? Cheap enough, choice in cpu, ram, drives, case is yours and ten years from now you probably still find them as being New Old Stock.

    [ Edited by Oepabakkes 26.07.2013 - 08:46 ]
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »26.07.13 - 06:46
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ausPPC
    Posts: 543 from 2007/8/6
    From: Pending...
    Repeating myself here but hopefully making my point more clearly. If an ISA change means dropping compatibility, whatever MorphOS morphs into next is going to have to compete on equal terms with other break-away OSes like Haiku. How can a fresh, new OS distinguish itself? What can it offer?

    [ Edited by ausPPC 26.07.2013 - 21:07 ]
    PPC assembly ain't so bad... ;)
  • »26.07.13 - 09:16
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ausPPC wrote:
    Repeating myself here but hopefully making my point more clearly. If an ISA change means dropping compatibility, whatever MorphOS morphs into next is going to have compete on equal terms with other break-away OSes like Haiku. How can a fresh, new OS distinguish itself? What can it offer?


    Compact size, a micro kernel, limited backward compatibility (lets face it, most apps will break).

    What will we need?
    Better OpenGL support would not hurt.
    A refreshed Ambient (who know what can be done about MUI).
    New filesystem?
    Tools to support X11 app porting (ugh, I know, but it will simplify things).
    And hopefully a version of UAE that is well integrated with JIT support.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.13 - 09:52
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think if we see this ISA shift, then it will be to Apple machines

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=14&topic_id=5875&start=596
  • »26.07.13 - 10:07
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > MorphOS for wintel

    Does this imply running MorphOS in a VM on Windows? ;-)
  • »26.07.13 - 10:17
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> How can a fresh, new OS distinguish itself? What can it offer?

    > limited backward compatibility (lets face it, most apps will break).

    More like no backward compatibility at all.

    > What will we need? [...]
    > A refreshed Ambient (who know what can be done about MUI).

    To me, Ambient is certainly one of the strengthes of MorphOS. What would you want refreshed in Ambient in particular?

    > New filesystem?

    What do you miss in IceFS?

    > a version of UAE that is well integrated with JIT support.

    I think UAE on MorphOS/x86 would certainly be equipped with the existing JIT. This should be easy, see UAE on AROS/x86.
  • »26.07.13 - 10:35
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    discreetfx
    Posts: 388 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    Why would all backwards compatibility be lost? Amithlon had almost 100% backwards compatibility. All you would need is a good 68K emul for x86. The code is already open source and in UAE. MorphOS PPC stuff could be recompiled.

    [ Edited by discreetfx 26.07.2013 - 05:40 ]
    DiscreetFX
    Making your
    Digital Films
    More Effective!
  • »26.07.13 - 10:39
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    discreetfx wrote:
    Why would all backwards compatibility be lost? Amithlon had almost 100% backwards compatibility. All you would need is a good 68K emul for x86. The code is already open source and in UAE. MorphOS PPC stuff could be recompiled.


    Well, the thing that is being neglected here (and on Amiga.org this morning) is that the system calls are all native PPC code (no translation).
    Less use of interpretation, faster operation.
    In a way its a thing of beauty I will miss.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.13 - 10:48
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Why would all backwards compatibility be lost?

    To clarify, we're talking about a transparent backwards compatibility like used in MorphOS and OS4 on PPC today, not about a boxed approach like UAE.
    Such transparent emulation requires compatibility between the host system API and the API the "guest" applications are talking to. A modernized (memory protection, multi-processing, 64-bit etc.) MorphOS would have to have a new API that's no longer compatible with the old one, no matter the CPU ISA (i.e. even on Power Architecture), so backwards compatibility couldn't be there.
    Porting MorphOS as is (single address space OS with message passing concept, i.e. without modernization) to x86 would preserve the current API, but the different endianness between x86 host system (little endian) and m68k guest applications (big endian) would make transparent emulation impossible.
    Of course, when both aspects (modernized API and port to x86) come together, you can scrap the idea of transparent backwards compatibility all the more.

    > Amithlon had almost 100% backwards compatibility.

    Amithlon works because there, the x86 Amiga code runs in artificial big endian mode rather than the x86 CPU's native little endian mode. The endianness is being converted on the fly. This way, running m68k applications and x86 Amiga applications side by side and even have them communicate with each other is possible without problems.
    The Amithlon way could also be made to work for MorphOS/x86 and be a solution to the endianness problem, but would still prevent an API modernization. Furthermore, the father of MorphOS spoke against the Amithlon way due to the alleged "ugliness" of that solution. More there:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7771&start=15
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=261
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6775&start=148

    > All you would need is a good 68K emul for x86. The code is already
    > open source and in UAE.

    As said, we're talking about a transparent approach here, not about a boxed one. A boxed approach like UAE is easy-peasy, obviously. After all, UAE is there for everyone to use already. Transparent emulation is what's hard to achieve and will probably have to be left out of MorphOS on x86.
  • »26.07.13 - 12:13
    Profile