No Rave3D.library for R300 ?!!?
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    serge
    Posts: 724 from 2003/2/20
    Missing Rave3d.library on PowerBook Radeon 9700, and PowerMac G5 Radeon 9600 Pro :-o
    Is this a bug?
    This means no more Warp3D compatibility, so bye bye Amiga Warp3D stuff like demos, games like Heretic II, Shogo, WipeOut 2097 :-o

    Is it a choice bypassing Warp3D Compatibility? A
  • »30.05.13 - 08:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    i noticed that, and Andreas too

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=9&topic_id=8578&post_id=101166&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1
  • »30.05.13 - 09:02
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    alright, sorry if i involved you then
  • »30.05.13 - 11:44
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Henes
    Posts: 495 from 2003/6/14
    Since 3.0, tinyl.library is not anymore using rave3d.library.
    Instead, tinygl got its own dedicated driver system allowing much superior performances and features.
    3.0 came with a r200 driver for tinygl.
    3.2 added a r300 driver to tinygl.

    This also means MorphOS runs two 3D driver systems simultaneously, side by side on the very same r200 hardware. Which is technically quite impressive IMHO :-)

    rave3d.library (which always was a private library) and its drivers aren't developed anymore (even though sometimes some bugfix is made, as you can see in the changelogs)
    No r300 driver will be written for rave3d which can be considered as some legacy component.

    It's true warp3d(ppc).library was built around rave3d.library during the previous century and so doesn't benefit from tinygl's r300 driver.
    But this is definitively not a bug. And this is not done for the purpose to break w3d. This is to be considered as a side effect of stepping forward in the 3d area :-p

    So, for now, there is no way to run warp3d crap stuff on r300. It remains to be seen if somebody will one day write some rave3d.library driver using tinygl. Or will modify warp3d(ppc).library to use tinygl.library. Technically both are possible. But today none exists.
  • »30.05.13 - 20:04
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 570 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    i would love to play some old PPC Games on MorphOS. Heretic II is still pretty impressive and a really good game. WipeOut is another good game.
    Powerbook G4@1,67GHz, 2GB DDR2 Ram, Radeon 9700, 60GB SSD, MorphOS 3.7
    PowerMac Dual G5 @2.3GHz, 4GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9600XT, 2x250GB HD, MorphOS 3.7, MacOS X Leopard 10.5.8
  • »30.05.13 - 22:05
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 939 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Henes,
    Quote:

    So, for now, there is no way to run warp3d crap stuff on r300.


    Software rendered 68k Wazp3D.library perhaps?

    http://aminet.net/package/driver/video/Wazp3D

    edit - Nope, just tried running the Cow3D demo from aminet and it doesn't work with the 68k Wazp3D (Nor the OS4 Wazp3D library via OS4Emu), a message box pops up saying "Goa3D graphic - No available Rave 3D driver."

    :(

    [ Edited by Intuition 30.05.2013 - 22:50 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »30.05.13 - 22:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    Quote:

    But this is definitively not a bug. And this is not done for the purpose to break w3d. This is to be considered as a side effect of stepping forward in the 3d area :-p


    While i perfectly understand the need to move forward at the cost of loosing some compatibility with older stuff, i still regret it. There is not much 3D stuff available for morphOS appart from games and the morphOS 3D hardware accelerated demoscene is so poor that it is sad to loose most of it (even if these demos were originally coded for PPC amigas). But well, time to move on i guess.
    Anyway, thanks a lot for the clear explanation Henes.

    edit : typos


    [ Edited by SoundSquare 30.05.2013 - 23:50 ]
  • »30.05.13 - 22:38
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Henes
    Posts: 495 from 2003/6/14
    I need to add that all the systems which could previously run w3d stuff... can still run them with MorphOS 3.0 and up. Nothing was removed and warp3d(ppc).library, rave3d.library etc are still there and work on voodoo3/4/5, radeon r100, r200 as previously...

    Also, again, nothing prevents some w3d -> tinygl bridge to be written in the future. It just has not happened yet.


    @SS
    I still owe you some cake ;-)
  • »30.05.13 - 22:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > just tried running the Cow3D demo from aminet and it doesn't work
    > with the 68k Wazp3D [...], a message box pops up saying "Goa3D
    > graphic - No available Rave 3D driver."

    For installation, the Wazp3D readme instructs to do:

    "Rename existing LIBS:Warp3D.library to LIBS:Warp3D.library-save
    [...]
    copy Wazp3D.library-full TO LIBS:Warp3D.library
    "

    Did you do exactly that?
  • »30.05.13 - 23:20
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 939 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    For installation, the Wazp3D readme instructs to do:

    "Rename existing LIBS:Warp3D.library to LIBS:Warp3D.library-save
    [...]
    copy Wazp3D.library-full TO LIBS:Warp3D.library"

    Did you do exactly that?


    I had to rename mossys:libs/Warp3D.library and then it worked.

    It is very slow as I expected though.

    edit - I tried the WipeOut 2097 demo and it fails due to not having a working Warp3DPPC.library.

    [ Edited by Intuition 30.05.2013 - 23:56 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »30.05.13 - 23:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I tried the WipeOut 2097 demo and it fails due to not having a working Warp3DPPC.library.

    Have you tried duplicating SYS:Libs/Warp3D.library (former Wazp3D.library-full) as SYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library and renaming MOSSYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library?
  • »31.05.13 - 00:07
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 939 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    Have you tried duplicating SYS:Libs/Warp3D.library (former Wazp3D.library-full) as SYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library and renaming MOSSYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library?


    Yes, it complains that Warp3DPPC Library V2 cannot be opened.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »31.05.13 - 00:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    Quote:

    @SS
    I still owe you some cake ;-)


    hehe, let's meet one of these days, it's been a while. I love pudding ;-)
  • »31.05.13 - 08:50
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1513 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Have you tried duplicating SYS:Libs/Warp3D.library (former Wazp3D.library-full) as SYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library and renaming MOSSYS:Libs/Warp3DPPC.library?



    Unfortunately it doesnt work like that because there are more differences than just a name.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »31.05.13 - 09:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Unfortunately it doesnt work like that because there are more differences
    > than just a name.

    Pity. Would have been too easy, admittedly ;-) So is it correct to assume that you see no way a MorphOS end user can use current Wazp3D to make popular Warp3D programs run with R300?
  • »31.05.13 - 11:09
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1513 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    It probably wouldnt take much effort create wazp3dppc.library from Wazp3D source code. Bigger problem is probably slow software rendering and poor compatibility with the existing Warp3D software.

    Those could be solved if someone took the ball, though :)

    Edit: it looks like Wzp3D could use TinyGL (?)
    "Hardware OpenGL(Mesa) can be used in AROS"

    http://thellier.free.fr/Wazp3D.htm

    To me it is completely alien stuff...

    [ Edited by itix 31.05.2013 - 13:24 ]
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »31.05.13 - 11:19
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 939 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    So is it correct to assume that you see no way a MorphOS end user can use current Wazp3D to make popular Warp3D programs run with R300?


    68k Warp3D programs work with Wazp3D software rendering on R300 (But extremely slowly) but WarpOS PPC programs don't.

    I could have a go at modifying Wazp3D to use TinyGL.library but its all foreign to me so I probably wouldn't get very far without a great deal of time and help.

    I might have a look to see how complicated it would be on Saturday night.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »31.05.13 - 16:47
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 570 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    i'd love to see a r300 support of rave3d with the next release :)
    Powerbook G4@1,67GHz, 2GB DDR2 Ram, Radeon 9700, 60GB SSD, MorphOS 3.7
    PowerMac Dual G5 @2.3GHz, 4GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9600XT, 2x250GB HD, MorphOS 3.7, MacOS X Leopard 10.5.8
  • »31.05.13 - 19:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I might have a look to see how complicated it would be on Saturday night.

    Another possible solution might have been proposed there:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708065

    This driver requires original Warp3D to be installed.
  • »02.06.13 - 15:42
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    serge
    Posts: 724 from 2003/2/20
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    Another possible solution might have been proposed there:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708065

    This driver requires original Warp3D to be installed.


    I tryed this solution but it doesn't work realy. Shogo, Heretic II and WipeOut 2097 doesn't work.

    Only things I could started were MenoBox and ImuBox.

    [ Edited by serge 02.06.2013 - 23:51 ]
  • »02.06.13 - 22:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9610 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > It probably wouldnt take much effort create wazp3dppc.library from Wazp3D source code.
    > [...]
    > Edit: it looks like Wzp3D could use TinyGL (?)
    > "Hardware OpenGL(Mesa) can be used in AROS"
    > http://thellier.free.fr/Wazp3D.htm

    Both points confirmed by the Wazp3D author:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708159
  • »03.06.13 - 11:21
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I might have a look to see how complicated it would be on Saturday night.

    Another possible solution might have been proposed there:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37710&forum=46&start=100#708065

    This driver requires original Warp3D to be installed.


    Update from Alain Thellier:

    Quote:

    BTW if a Morphos coder wants to recompile Wazp3D with OpenGL support for Morphos and encounters some problems he may contact* me : I will help him for wazp3D & GL side
    but for the OS specific part (ie Morphos lib-header & creating a custom GL context) I wont help him as I dont know Morphos' OS-dependant-coding at all :-/


    Alain Thellier - Wazp3D author

    * my mail is in the wazp3d readme
    www.hullchimneyservices.co.uk

    UI: Powerbook 5,6 (1.67GHz, 128MB VRam): OS3.1, OSX 10.5.8
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  • »19.06.13 - 13:08
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 441 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    I'm interested in doing this, although I'm currently busy with RTTR. I'll contact Alain Thellier.
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »19.06.13 - 14:41
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4449 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I'll admit, this was a disappointment I was not prepared for (after buying and converting several R300 cards for MorphOS use).
    In fact, I've downgraded back to Radeon 9000Pro cards.
    But if we could do this re-compilation, we wouldn't have to worry about similar problems with other video cards we might want to adopt in the future.
    Current, the G5 PowerMac that we've just adopted could potentially handle R400 cards (so X800XTs are a possibility with a new driver).
    And, PCIe G5s are ever supported, then R500 cards like the X1900GT are a possibility.

    So...hopefully some ambitious individual will step up.

    Just don't expect Frank or Mark to want to tackle it. They've both accomplished enough recently that they deserve nothing more than our kudos.
    Which, btw, they definately have on my part.
    Way to go guys. I'm really enjoying playing around with the iBook (I'll get around to a G5 eventually - probably after 3.3 is released). :-D

    [ Edited by Jim 20.06.2013 - 00:36 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.06.13 - 00:34
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