Libre Office - MorphOS - What's preventing it?
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    In case I am sounding too negative, I want to make clear I would support such a bounty. I would contribute something to such a bounty.
  • »30.01.13 - 22:41
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 575 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    amigadave,
    Quote:

    it would be better for the developer(s) to use a Windows, or possibly a Mac, or Linux system to cross compile the project

    Linux. Using anything else is just asking for trouble.
  • »30.01.13 - 23:59
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Piru,
    Quote:

    Linux. Using anything else is just asking for trouble.


    Linux on what kind of system?
    I'm prepping an MDD for this developer and I have a 250GB hard drive divided in half with partitions for OSX and MorphOS.
    Would there be any benefit in making this a triple boot system or would the Linux development be best done on an X86 system?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.01.13 - 02:25
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Linux on what kind of system? [...]
    > would the Linux development be best done on an X86 system?

    From Nadir mentioning time saving as one reason to use Linux I'd conclude that he refers primarily to Linux on x86.
  • »31.01.13 - 07:24
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Jim,
    Quote:

    Linux on what kind of system?

    i7 3970X
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  • »31.01.13 - 10:03
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    redrumloa wrote:,
    Quote:

    Camp OS4 will be playing 'hide the source code' on their port, no doubt.




    But you are forgetting, or overlooking that it is A-Eon, not Hyperion that has funded the effort to port Libre Office to AmigaOS4.x, and A-Eon is "Pro" cooperation and running both MorphOS3.x and AmigaOS4.x on the same hardware.

    I agree that Hyperion probably would not be interested in sharing any code they have produced with MorphOS users & programmers, but that is not the case with this project.

    As for Nadir's assertions that combining the porting projects would actually increase, or double the time it would take to complete, I can only see that as being true if just one person was doing all of the work, which I don't expect to be reasonable for this project. We should have many programmers contributing to such a large software project and I see no reason why there could not be one or two programmers who were focused on system specific parts of the code, for each different system, while other programmers were primarily working on generic parts of the code that would be shared by both systems.

    It is really disappointing to see just how much resistance and prejudice still exists, and is still stirred up in various places (not necessarily this thread), when clearly cooperation benefits us all.

    Edit: I can already see into the future when the two porting projects are completed by two different programmers, or groups of programmers (if either of them is ever completed), and the comparisons begin with people claiming which port is better for this reason or that reason, or my port got finished faster than your port, etc. Why can't Amiga users and MorphOS users ever grow up?

    Edit #2: I have a wild and crazy idea! Let's start dismantling the old hatred's and bad feelings. Let the MorphOS users and programmers and Dev. Team be the hero's and leaders moving toward a new paradigm of cooperation and tolerance, where it might be possible some day in the distant future to actually share code and foster easier cross platform development at the system level, while keeping the differences between the two systems (they really are quite different in many ways, but so similar in so many other ways). Wouldn't it be great if MorphOS3.x had access to the code for the Radeon HD video cards, so they could work their magic and improve the drivers even further? I am sure that "Some" of the AmigaOS4.x programmers would love to have access to some parts of the MorphOS code, so they could more easily port AmigaOS4.x to several of the Mac G4 computer systems, and possibly the G5 systems in the future.

    I know that none of this will happen any time soon, but wouldn't it be great if it eventually did happen and all the fighting could stop?

    MorphOS3.x has already won the war, and unless the MorphOS Dev. Team is afraid that by sharing any of their code with certain AmigaOS4.x third party programmers would threaten the lead that MorphOS3.x has over AmigaOS4.x in so many areas, why can't they eventually begin to think like I do, and admit that there is nothing to really fear, and no reason to continue the fighting, unless the goal is to continue the fight until there is only one NG Amiga platform standing, and that is not likely to happen any time soon.

    Let's grow up and move on from the fight to something more productive, because we are all (originally) Amiga users.

    [ Edited by amigadave 31.01.2013 - 07:57 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »31.01.13 - 14:33
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I am sure that "Some" of the AmigaOS4.x programmers would love to
    > have access to some parts of the MorphOS code, so they could more
    > easily port AmigaOS4.x to several of the Mac G4 computer systems

    As could be seen by the sad Moana episode, Hyperion doesn't *want* OS4 on G4 Macs to happen. So even if there're OS4 coders who would do the porting, a release against Hyperion's will would still be as illegal as Moana has been.
  • »31.01.13 - 16:20
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    SteveE617
    Posts: 80 from 2013/1/26
    From: Burleson, Tx
    Just a question, because I honestly don't know what the right answer is, but wouldn't an AOS4 port of LibreOffice fall under the GNU/GPL/Open Source public license and be available to everyone?

    I have to agree to amigadave. Maybe we should put aside the "us vs. them" mentality.

    Each OS has their advantages and disadvantages. I made the choice to move from AmigaOS 3.9 to MorphOS. The main contributing factor was hardware. While it's not yet released for the platform, I purchased a PowerMac G5. It's good hardware and monetarily, when compared to the A-Eon X1000 or the ever increasingly expensive PPC upgrade boards for classic systems, they are relatively inexpensive. Price vs. processing power, you really can't beat it.

    Getting back to the discussion, it would be nice if the MorphOS and AOS camps did communicate and share code. It would make things better. It wouldn't make me shift operating systems. From my limited exposure to both systems, I chose this one to continue my experience.

    Let's make good things happen. You've got my support. While I can't go into detail, you'll see more support from me online soon. (I'll let your imagination roam)

    [ Edited by SteveE617 31.01.2013 - 14:35 ]
    Steve E, BSOE, MIS
    PowerMac G5 | Dual 2.0 Ghz | 2 GB | 32GB CF | 9800XT
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  • »31.01.13 - 18:05
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    amigadave,
    I don't care about OS4 and gues Nadir is right in his assumption that taking OS4 and MorphOS specific things into _one_ project doubles the effort. But there's hope. The Amiga with its different reincarnations shares one thing. And that is the legacy. Let's force an LibreOffice port to 68k/RTG OS3.x. Benefits most. MorphOS' 68k emu is fast and a 68k program benfits also Emulator users, AROS users, maybe even some 060 users (probably slow as hell) or other classic users and last not least also the OS4 users.
    No double effort but multiple benefit. Easy, ain't it?
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »31.01.13 - 19:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Zylesea,
    Quote:

    Let's force an LibreOffice port to 68k/RTG OS3.x.


    Bad idea IMO. I have to side with Nadir's comment. Amiga OS 3.X and AmigaOS 4.X are too far behind MorphOS, it would double the effort or worse.

    Besides, Hyperion would rather fade into oblivion than cooperate with anyone. See Roadhow, a 3rd party app the developer is blocked by Hyperion from making a MorphOS version. See threats against ClusterUK for using 3rd party icons inAROS, for a private Youtube video, despite the OK from the 3rd party icon designer. Hyperion has no desire to work with anyone.

    Let them do their thing and lets do ours.
  • »31.01.13 - 21:20
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    SteveE617
    Posts: 80 from 2013/1/26
    From: Burleson, Tx
    I wouldn't bother with a 68k port. It has to be native to the OS.
    Steve E, BSOE, MIS
    PowerMac G5 | Dual 2.0 Ghz | 2 GB | 32GB CF | 9800XT
    AmigaOne x5000 | 8 GB | 1TB | Radeon 7770HD
  • »31.01.13 - 21:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1061 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    Quote:

    Let's force an LibreOffice port to 68k/RTG OS3.x.


    You must be joking, right?

    My POV: let's worry about ourselves, cooperation between red and blue camp won't happen so let's face it. I do spend my time and money to support MorphOS, I don't care about AmigaOS 4.x too much, their developers doesn't care too much about MorphOS as well so what's the point of forcing ppl to work together?
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »31.01.13 - 22:09
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Let's force an LibreOffice port to 68k/RTG OS3.x.


    I want MorphOS to evolve, to improve over time (as it has done for more than a decade now), and I want (and expect) new programs (whatever they might be) to make use of these improvements whenever possible. Sticking to OS3.x would be wrong in this way, would mean going in the opposite direction. Same for OS4 as well, that lacks many important MorphOS features that would result in applications where development being held back to the smallest common denominator. From whatever viewpoint I look at it, it seems like a terrible idea. Make it *MorphOS only*, all the way! It's MorphOS we are here for, not OS3, not OS4, not AROS.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »31.01.13 - 23:07
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    I am not speaking about OS4, but rather about OS3.x and AROS (Janus).
    But I don't know how LibreOffice handles fonts and font rendering. If it's inbuild I don't see a major showstopper for a 68k/RTG binary. If it's using the OS for such things, then OS3.x is no option. And there's probably more than only font handling to consider...
    But there's some appeal of a OS3.x 68k/RTG compliant version: a single binary would reach almost the entire Amigaish world and hence could raise a bigger bounty or cast more developers.
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »31.01.13 - 23:29
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    There are talk over at AROS-EXEC about supporting a bounty for this port and also to try to cooperate through the various AOS clones. A shared MorphOS/AROS bounty would probably reach the goal faster IMHO.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »01.02.13 - 00:33
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Interesting idea Zylesea' but I'm still in favor of this being a native PPC port.
    The tools to do this under MorphOS are sparse enough, I'm not sure a 68k version is realistic.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »01.02.13 - 02:22
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    a single binary would reach almost the entire Amigaish world


    Of course I wouldn't expect it in a first, quick port, but over time I think a binary that utilizes Reggae, new MUI4 features (some may perhaps even be developed specially for this application), safely assumes big file support (through MorphOS's new DOS and file systems like IceFS), etc, would be better. Interfacing the applications with LUA scripting would perhaps make better sense than Arexx? I know that the Turbo Print in MorphOS leaves a lot to wish for, but it's there, it's something OS3.x doesn't have as standard. There are most certainly many more things, this was just quick from the top of my head, but the point I'm trying to make is that this is MorphOS, and MorphOS has evolved and is evolving, it has become much better than Amiga OS was, with more features, better features. If new programs won't use these features whenever it's possible, but sill aim for the the much lower OS3.x prerequisites from 1995, wouldn't this make the MorphOS evolution a bit redundant? This is MorphOS, if new applications should be written (or ported) in an OS native way, I think it's a given that it should aim to utilize as many MorphOS features as possible, whenever possible. I think this should be a standing, general ambition for all developments, and not just for this one. OS3, OS4 and AROS isn't MorphOS.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »01.02.13 - 09:42
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cool_amigaN
    Posts: 745 from 2011/11/30
    I am not so sure that Hyperion has a strong word on this one. AFAIK OS4.x port is sponsored by TrevorD (AEON). Ok, the author has close connections to Hyperion (and a relative bad history of closing sources when porting open software) but still, a theoretical bounty could work (especially if TD puts some pressure on it). Anyway, I would love having libre office under MorphOS because it will enable me to use the system more in day to day tasks.
    Amiga gaming Tribute: Watch, rate, comment :)
  • »01.02.13 - 12:52
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I know that the Turbo Print in MorphOS leaves a lot to wish for, but it's there

    ...and will hopefully be replaced soon:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9037&forum=32&start=7
  • »01.02.13 - 13:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ChrisH
    Posts: 167 from 2009/11/26
    It's very saddening to see some people assume that cooperation is impossible, and thus it shouldn't even be tried. That dooms MorphOS to fighting on it's own against the real threat (people giving-up & taking the easy route with Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, etc). (And the same applies to OS4 & AROS of course.) I think AmigaDave has the right idea that MOS+AROS+OS4 stands a better chance of survival if they try to work together (only where possible of course).

    OTOH, I agree that it would be a bad idea to try to target two OSes at the same time. On a complex project like this, it will simply make the job twice as big. Better to make the initial target as simple as possible (i.e. MorphOS 3.x only), so you stand some chance of getting it working. But AFTER that happens the source code could be shared, and attempts made by other people to get it working on their favoured OS (preferably with #ifdefs so that the same source tree could be used).
    Author of the PortablE programming language.
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  • »01.02.13 - 18:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1061 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    ChrisH: sorry mate but from your post the message is quite clear - you do the job and then give us a code. That's not the co-operation really.

    [ Edited by pampers 01.02.2013 - 21:27 ]
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »01.02.13 - 20:26
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    I think too many people replying to this thread have misunderstood my suggestions for cooperation between the AmigaOS4.x port and the proposed MorphOS3.x port of Libre Office. The way I envisioned it working was the setting up of an open source tree with each system having separate branches and only sharing the code that is common to a PPC version of Libre Office. The MorphOS3.x branch would take a different direction with MUI4 and perhaps Reggae, IceFS, & LUA, while the AmigaOS4.x branch would probably use ReAction, ARexx and other commonly used parts from AmigaOS4.x.

    In essence it would be two separate porting projects, just that they would share a common source tree, but have their own separate branches that would not affect each other. In this way, their would be nothing to slow down either programming team, or individual, as they would not get involved with anything related to the "Other" branch. AROS for PPC could also join the party with their own programming team or individual.

    That was my idea of cooperation that could be achieved at this point in time. Maybe a further step toward cooperation could made later.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »01.02.13 - 22:12
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AROS for PPC could also join the party

    Why AROS *PPC* specifically? Do you think that LibreOffice, which is written in the ISA-agnostic high level language that is C++ (that's why it is available compiled for various ISAs like x86(-64) and PPC), would be rewritten to PPC ASM when ported to AmigaOS-like operating systems?
  • »01.02.13 - 22:54
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    This was written in post #15 already:

    Quote:

    To make this thing happen, one needs to focus on the task. Faffing about with several architectures and plenty of people testing is just not the right approach. The drag from supporting different architectures is not primarilly related to the compilation or testing time as you suggested. It's just a mess to maintain the build system and all dependencies for two different architectures when it comes to a monster like Libre Office. Seriously, 1-2 weeks of dedicated work by one guy to make the thing actually run wihout any native GUI on one single machine is what is needed initially.


    Meaning: "Cooperation" would only mess things up. This coming from a core MorphOS developer, meaning great knowledge and experience of the platform, who has actually spent some time investigating the application we are discussing. That actually makes me trust his view on the issue.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
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  • »01.02.13 - 22:55
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 1030 from 2004/9/23
    Even if they would decide to use MUI, there would be the problem that OS4 Team invented a new library api, which renders the code unreadable and unusable by default.

    It is a waste of time to use OS4 code to start porting to MorphOS/AROS/68K.

    Geit


    [ Edited by geit 02.02.2013 - 13:54 ]
  • »02.02.13 - 11:54
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