An Open Letter to Dave Haynie
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Petro Tyschtschenko has been selling A1200s from a stash he apparently found
    > in India (I believe).

    Yes, a former business partner from India Petro sold A1200 machines to during his Amiga days contacted Petro about the unsalable stock remains and asked him whether he should trash them or Petro wants to redeem them.

    Btw, this is how this stock arrived in India, according to Bill McEwen:

    "A portion of the Amiga operational budget came from the sale of the existing Amiga hardware and operations and we expected those revenues to help us stretch the initial funding so that we had time to properly get to the second round of funding for Amiga which was always planned. Think of my surprise when I learned that all of our inventory was sold for $75,000.00 to a company in India, when we were generating more than that on a monthly basis. This created a big operational hole for the company and caused us great harm in our ability to move forward. This hardware was not even put up for bid or auction, and nobody was consulted in the process."
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=499442

    There are more details to this story told in an email exchange between Bill McEwen and Olaf "Olsen" Barthel, publicly documented as part of the Amiga Inc. vs. Hyperion court case filings.

    > He's even signed a few.

    AFAIK he has signed all of them. And you can read on the forums about many purchasers trying to wash his signature off again ;-)

    > While I'm not a big fan of Hyperion, at least they are selling something.

    Amiga Inc. is also selling something, as much as 26 products:

    http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/vendor/21741/?lang=en

    > if we go ARM and Hyperion continues with PPC [...] there would be Amigoid OS'
    > running on X86, PPC, and ARM.

    AROS is already on ARM (and also on PPC to some extent).

    > I now longer support jettisoning legacy compatibility. After all, if we support
    > the 3.1 API, we ought to support legacy code.

    MorphOS on ARM (or x86) would most likely not have transparent m68k (or PPC) emulation:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=8369&start=81

    That's why the MorphOS Team would most likely use that opportunity to improve upon the 3.1 API through to a more modern but incompatible one.
  • »08.04.13 - 11:51
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    TomKeric
    Posts: 146 from 2013/2/18
    From: Stockholm
    Hi Andreas,

    I understood Aros is using some linux kernel to run on the RPi ARM. Isn't that a difference from actually running on ARM. Maybe you know and can explatin.

    Regardless it is cool they get the OS up on RPi - :)
    -If you've never failed, you've never tried -
  • »08.04.13 - 20:58
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 559 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    That's baloney. There's a native port actively being worked on, which already boots on the system.
    This is just like television, only you can see much further.
  • »08.04.13 - 21:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I understood Aros is using some linux kernel to run on the RPi ARM. Isn't tha
    > a difference from actually running on ARM. Maybe you know and can explatin.

    http://arosworld.org/news.php?readmore=285
    http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=80007#forumpost80007


    Edit: BSzili beat me to it.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 09.04.2013 - 00:39 ]
  • »08.04.13 - 21:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Jim,
    Quote:

    BTW, I now longer support jettisoning legacy compatibility.
    After all, if we support the 3.1 API, we ought to support legacy code.

    And besides, there are a few old Amiga apps I'm rather fond of.



    That's why we have UAE. 8-)

    I held that opinion until about 2 years ago. Now I think it is time to sh** can compatability in order to move forward. Most important PPC based apps are being maintained and can be ported. There is very little I will miss that can't be run under UAE(Due to PPC).

    That's all future anyhow, we still have G5 support upcoming. G5 will satisfy our PPC nostalgia for good. After G5, there is nowhere else to go on PPC.
  • »08.04.13 - 22:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > After G5, there is nowhere else to go on PPC.

    It seems like Sam460ex support will come after G5 :-)
  • »08.04.13 - 22:50
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    It seems like Sam460ex support will come after G5 :-)


    No offense intended to Acube, but I hardly consider Sam460ex a viable platform. That's just me...
  • »08.04.13 - 23:08
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Speaking of stolen work, there seems to be an ironic twist here:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39661&forum=15&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

    [ Edited by Yasu 15.12.2014 - 11:53 ]
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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  • »15.12.14 - 09:52
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1217 from 2003/6/17
    This the same thing?


    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=779862
  • »15.12.14 - 13:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1914 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Jim,
    Quote:

    BTW, I now longer support jettisoning legacy compatibility.
    After all, if we support the 3.1 API, we ought to support legacy code.

    And besides, there are a few old Amiga apps I'm rather fond of.



    That's why we have UAE. 8-)

    I held that opinion until about 2 years ago. Now I think it is time to sh** can compatability in order to move forward. Most important PPC based apps are being maintained and can be ported. There is very little I will miss that can't be run under UAE(Due to PPC).

    That's all future anyhow, we still have G5 support upcoming. G5 will satisfy our PPC nostalgia for good. After G5, there is nowhere else to go on PPC.


    Im in the same camp as Red here now. Do the Apple thing and just dump the legacy support to advance and move on to bigger and better things.
    Powermac Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 PCI-X (Registration #1894)
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  • »15.12.14 - 15:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > This the same thing?
    > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=779862

    Yes, MUI4 for OS3/m68k should use the same Autodocs as MUI4 for OS4/PPC. Apparently, they are also used for Zune on AROS:

    http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=92079#forumpost92079
  • »15.12.14 - 15:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1217 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > This the same thing?
    > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=779862

    Yes, MUI4 for OS3/m68k should use the same Autodocs as MUI4 for OS4/PPC. Apparently, they are also used for Zune on AROS:

    http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=92079#forumpost92079


    After reading all of that I was appalled. Very disappointed that a for-profit company was distributing this and not immediately pulling it after knowing it was using code from another developer without permission. I talked to both AmiKit and another moderator about my thoughts on this subject. Hopefully it gets fixed. Otherwise its just a big fuck you to the dev that got his work used without permission.
  • »17.12.14 - 13:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it was using code from another developer without permission.

    To be precise, as I wrote, it's about Autodocs, so documentation, not code. That's not to say this would make a difference regarding distribution rights, though.
  • »17.12.14 - 14:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1217 from 2003/6/17
    ok.. docs.. meant that instead of code.


    Basically..not giving credit for work done by someone else and just saying f you.

    [ Edited by TheMagicM 17.12.2014 - 09:40 ]
  • »17.12.14 - 14:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    >> Petro said all kinds of things that weren't true. They were talking PowerPC then,
    >> but doing absolutely nothing about it... maybe that was Petro's cozying up to
    >> Phase V to have something to sell.

    > Now you're being unfair towards Tyschtschenko here when you make it seem like this
    > "Power Amiga" thing was his pet idea alone. This press release is from November 1995
    > when Amiga Technologies still had a dual leadership consisting of both Petro
    > Tyschtschenko and Stefan Domeyer. And it seems they had the blessing of their boss
    > Manfred Schmitt, founder and chairman of Escom, who said only 4 days later: [...]

    Interesting info from Dave Haynie:

    "Amiga Technologies [...] contracted me to consult with them [...]. Andy Finkel was brought in similarly, to lead software development. We each presented proposals. Mine included two custom chips, "Pebbles" and "Bam-Bam", to define a PowerPC-based system on the level of an Amiga 500 or Amiga 1200, something that could sell for US$500 by1998. [...] Andy and I were in Germany, and while there, Amiga Technologies has kind of a PowerPC get-together. I had submitted a revised article, called "Power Amiga Strategy Report" [...]. This was in response to Amiga Technologies consideration of higher-end PPC systems as well. This also includes "The Power Amiga's" by P. Gillespie at ESCOM, which calls out a whole slew of systems for Amiga Technologies to build -- Mr. Gillespie was definitely more fanboi than engineer (I wasn't sure AT would have the resources to build whole new PPC system, at least if custom chip work -- via partners like IBM and Motorola -- were done). This folder also includes [...] a set of notes from Heinz Wrobel, who [...] suggested doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch, and completely off-the-shelf hardware [...], and a big presentation on "AMIGA PowerPC" from phase 5. The only note I took on that sheet: "What have these guys been smoking?". They got really deep into wanting a really fast Zorro IV custom expansion bus (at that point, there was absolutely no reason to use anything but PCI). They also has a feature list for graphics which was basically what AAA did, only with full hardware windowing... in short, another 3-5 year project. [...] Finally, this includes [...] a copy of the "Goal Definition and Sign Up" that we all signed: "The major aim is to provide a real competitive alternative to the Intel/Microsoft Monopoly."
    http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=131439932414

    Some photos:
    http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjE2/z/mEYAAOSwe-FU7sLk/$_57.JPG
    http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA5MlgxNjAw/z/cdEAAOSwZjJU7sLq/$_57.JPG
    http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA3N1gxNjAw/z/GkwAAOSwBahU7sLu/$_57.JPG
    http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTEyNlgxNjAw/z/cKUAAOSwrklU7shR/$_57.JPG
  • »01.03.15 - 20:08
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >"...doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch, and completely off-the-shelf hardware..."

    Dave? Are you sure you and Andy weren't considering copying...our OS?

    Oh heck, at least that isn't doing it the dumb way (by trying to re-write the 68K source code). ;)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »01.03.15 - 20:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >"Heinz Wrobel [...] suggested doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch,
    > and completely off-the-shelf hardware"

    > Dave? Are you sure you and Andy weren't considering copying...our OS?

    Apart from the fact that this would've required a time machine, the suggestion was by Heinz Wrobel, not by Dave or Andy.
  • »01.03.15 - 21:14
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >"Heinz Wrobel [...] suggested doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch,
    > and completely off-the-shelf hardware "

    > Dave? Are you sure you and Andy weren't considering copying...our OS?

    Apart from the fact that this would've required a time machine, the suggestion was by Heinz Wrobel, not by Dave or Andy.


    Heinz Wrobel...hmmm, probably could have gotten that from the document, eh, Andreas?
    No I was merely suggesting that Dave and Andy might take the suggestion seriously.

    And yes, this would have predated MorphOS.

    Still, this story does shed some light on Dave's negative reaction to us.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »01.03.15 - 21:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>> "Heinz Wrobel [...] suggested doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch,
    >>>> and completely off-the-shelf hardware"

    >>> Dave? Are you sure you and Andy weren't considering copying...our OS?

    >> Apart from the fact that this would've required a time machine, the suggestion
    >> was by Heinz Wrobel, not by Dave or Andy.

    > I was merely suggesting that Dave and Andy might take the suggestion seriously.

    Considering that Dave and Heinz were not in line apparently regarding the hardware plans (custom chips "Pebbles" and "Bam-Bam" vs. completely off-the-shelf hardware), you might be jumping to conclusions assuming that Dave/Andy and Heinz were in line regarding the OS. At least from Dave's statements at hand I can't see what his stance was back then.
  • »02.03.15 - 08:22
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>>> "Heinz Wrobel [...] suggested doing AmigaOS for PowerPC new from scratch,
    >>>> and completely off-the-shelf hardware"

    >>> Dave? Are you sure you and Andy weren't considering copying...our OS?

    >> Apart from the fact that this would've required a time machine, the suggestion
    >> was by Heinz Wrobel, not by Dave or Andy.

    > I was merely suggesting that Dave and Andy might take the suggestion seriously.

    Considering that Dave and Heinz were not in line apparently regarding the hardware plans (custom chips "Pebbles" and "Bam-Bam" vs. completely off-the-shelf hardware), you might be jumping to conclusions assuming that Dave/Andy and Heinz were in line regarding the OS. At least from Dave's statements at hand I can't see what his stance was back then.


    No Andreas, I'm not prepared to make any statement as to Haynie's past or present stance either.
    Its just interesting knowing that the options, even at this point, were similar to those we have considered (except for the custom chip options, which I guess the FPGA fanatics are now looking at now).

    In any case, it was actually kind of neat having Dave offer up this little piece of history.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.03.15 - 12:00
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Roland
    Posts: 36 from 2013/2/10
    The original content of this post is no longer relevant and has been removed accordingly.

    [ Edited by Roland 04.04.2018 - 09:03 ]
  • »03.04.18 - 12:11
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1369 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Yes.
  • »03.04.18 - 16:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Isn't thread necromancy against the ToS here?

    If not, shouldn't it be?
  • »03.04.18 - 16:53
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1369 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    If not, shouldn't it be?


    I do not think so.

    If somebody asks about an odd problem and 2 years later someone else happens to find a solution why shouldn't that person be allowed to answer in the same discussion thread?

    I get why some high-traffic forums handle this differently but I see no need with regard to MorphZone.
  • »03.04.18 - 17:20
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