I'm sure the majority of you have heard about this, but apparently key vital to existing Sony PS# software have been hacked. This essentially renders the consoles protection useless.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55884

Now that full access to PS3 hardware is wide open (with littele chance of them managing to repair it), couldn't we consider this port once more?

Nooooo .......

So you ask Morphosteam to use an illegal hack to run Mophos on a PS3? ... can't we just stop the PS3 thing ? I like it for what it was ment to be... playing games

[ Edited by Oepabakkes on 2010/12/30 20:53 ]

Quote:

Sorry, I should have had more consideration about the potential legal ramifications of this.

No, Its not reasonable to ask the development team to risk facing the wrath of Sony.

I still like the idea of using the consoles hardware for non-game use, but I will have to settle for the open software ports that utilize this hack as the hack would not have to be part of the port (isolating the developers from attack by Sony's lawyers).

And I should have just tacked this on to this last post covering this. Obviously, unless sactioned by Sony (which is completely unlikely) this will never be a practical idea.

don't get me wrong ... i very much like my 1st generation PS3 with all the usbports and cardreader

Yes, its a nice machine. Thanks for refocusing me on the vital point of the matter. I've had enough experience in business and education covering business principles and laws that it should have come to me.
It's impossible to do this without infringing on Sony patents and copyrights.
So without an agreement with Sony, its impossible except as an illicit act.
Linux users will get away with this because there is no business entity to pursue through legal channels.
AROS developers might even get away with it if they don't provide the keys directly.
But, is not really a good idea for an identifiable group like the MOS team to use this information.No, I don't need a console that won't be nearly as powerful as the G5 equipment already being developed with. Not with the potential consequences.
Again, sorry.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/30 21:57 ]

Again, don't take this all to seriously .. but imagine that tomorrow MorphOS runs on PS3 and the day after some hacker uses it to run copied games. Game over Morphos I think, or at least a lawsuit you don't want and costs a lot of money for .. ?

I don't think it would even have to go that far. Display MorphOS running on a PS3 and I'd expect an immediate attempt at obtaining legal injunctions and then a lawsuit.

Wholly unecessary considering the relatively low cpu benvhmark figures Andreas has provided for the PS3.

> No, I don't need a console that won't be nearly as powerful as the G5 equipment already being developed with..

I thought the ps3 had a 3ghz processor? some data

Well the limiting factor with the Cell (in the PS3) seems to be the in order execution pipeline that Sony/IBM used in the design. It a simplier but considerably less powerful design that the out of order execution pipelines used in most PPCs (and X86 processors - except the Atom).

If I can dig it up (or Andreas Wolf if he has the time to), figures have already been posted comparing this processor to other PPCs. Believe it or not, we're already doing pretty good in comparison with our current hardware, and the G5 will definately prove superior.

Remember, speed alone is not the only factor influencing a processor's power (think P4 vs Athlon64).

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/31 2:42 ]

> I thought the ps3 had a 3ghz processor?

...that is an in-order design. Comparison of Cell PPE and G4 in terms of DMIPS:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6993&forum=3&start=66

So in short you guys are saying for what we wanted to do, (owb browse, mplayer,ffmpeg, mame, euae, {anything else fab ports} burn via frying pan or make cd, bluehd, write dvd, multitask wise, it wouldn't process faster than my mini1.5 or the others? I want something faster than the mini, with the mini's size
As for the ps3, the memory would always be another issue.

> So in short you guys are saying for what we wanted to do, (owb browse,
> mplayer,ffmpeg, mame, euae, {anything else fab ports} burn via frying pan
> or make cd, bluehd, write dvd, multitask wise, it wouldn't process faster than
> my mini1.5 or the others?

Yes, exactly. Mind you, we're talking about the Cell PPE only. Leveraging the Cell SPEs would be another matter altogether and could actually help in some of the tasks you mention.

probably one of the reasons apple moved on to to intel?
>think P4 vs Athlon64).
I get it. I had one of those, wasn't fond of it. my gateway p4 crapped the fan, but my amd 1.8 much more comfortable than the p4 quad4, celeron 1.86 ok-so,so.
Thanks for the reminder, we answered it before on the link

> except the Atom

There're more exceptions in x86 land, for instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinChip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_C3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_C7

> probably one of the reasons apple moved on to to intel?

Statement from an unnamed* former IBM Manager who was involved in the negotiations between IBM and Apple:

"IBM had hoped to amortize the cost of PowerPC on Cell, the PowerPC-based chip design now used in the Sony PlayStation, some IBM severs, and IBM Roadrunner supercomputers. Big Blue was hoping to move Apple to Cell and then get the economies of scale there"
https://www.cnet.com/news/four-years-later-why-did-apple-drop-powerpc/

So yes, the low performance of Cell in terms of general purpose computing might have contributed to Apple's decision to switch to Intel.

* The former IBM Manager was later revealed to be Michel Mayer, 2001-2003 General Manager for IBM Microelectronics (and 2004-2008 Chairman and CEO of Freescale).

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 05.12.2019 - 12:24 ]

Cell is a crazy processor, out of the minds of wicked scientists that thought everyone else should be doing proteing folding calculations. The fact that it ended up in a consumer device is formidable.

I was about to add a wink smiley but guess what? I'd rather not!

jim
There will be no port to PS3 why do you people keep insisting on making this thread... hmm let me gues you own a ps3..

Actually no, and after getting burned by Sony's Cd reseller BMGMusic (with CDS containing undisclosed root kit) I'm going avoid giving any of my money to this company.

I have to wonder why I;d bring this up just because it is possible. The Cell is a surprising low performing processor.

Quote:
If we forget CPU, memory would of course be one issue. But in my opinion the biggest issue would be the GPU. Reverse-engineering it isn't a small thing. Remember it took quite a while for linux-users to get to the point, where they could draw (limited) hw-accelerated triangles (which is very far from complete OpenGL implementation), after which sony of course blocked the access without a notice.

And even if we forget full 3D, at least overlay support would be definitely needed.

Anyway, in my opinion, selling commercial OS for "hacked" platform isn't a good idea in my opinion...

On the other hand, I hope the homebrew for PS3 will really take off and become really mainstream. After Sony's "voluntary remove other os update" (without any compensation for removing advertised features) they most definitely deserve everything that will be coming in 2011 and beyond.

And considering that at least for a while, no modding of any kind should be required to f.ex. install a ps3 port of mplayer(*) which can play any formats PS3 can't, including "wrong region" DVD's, it might become very popular quickly.

(*)Only using mplayer as an example of relatively easy but really useful program, that will likely be among the first for many to install. Don't know if there's already one or not.

> it took quite a while for linux-users to get to the point,
> where they could draw (limited) hw-accelerated triangles

Actually, it didn't take much time to get the RSX to draw those triangles after that version of the firmware had been hacked back then.

> Don't know if there's already one or not.

http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:spu-medialib

Quote:

Wow, and they haven't finished hacking Sony's keys yet (just shown that its inevitable). Yes I think they will move fairly quicly once they've completely unlocked the system.
Since they know they GPUs vendor, they should be able to make some educated guesses and be able to write some simple code to explore areas that would be likely candidates for the GPU memory mapped functions. It may sound difficult, but I think with each piece of knowledge they gain they'll have a better picture of the overall systems structure.

I don't think this will take as long as some think.

And I'd like to again appologize for suggesting that the MorphOS team consider this platform. An open is the only way to use this information.


Should Sony try to stop distribution of a Linux based OS, the propietary info need not even be included with the files necessary to build a bootable disk (the hacks could be safe stored seperately)..

As there would not be a business enity to attack legally, and community developed free OS is the only realistic way to use this info.

While the PS3 would be slower than a G4 Powermac, it is possible that a PPC linux hosted version of AROS might be developed.

We can't add this platform to our community, but other could.

[ Edited by Jim on 2011/1/1 22:21 ]

>Slower than a G4 mac
but faster than efika, power and price wise it would fit inbetween but not worth the new purchase without the firmware hack obviously. I looked at the videos and they pop it open quiet nicely.(search linux on ps3).
Good point about Aros too, but only morphos would have me even consider it an option. Already have 3 machines running linux.

> they know they GPUs vendor

They even know the exact chip the GPU is derived from.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6993&forum=3&post_id=77900#77900

> the PS3 would be slower than a G4 Powermac

I think that depends on the specific task and on the exact G4 PowerMac model's CPU and clock rate.

> it is possible that a PPC linux hosted version of AROS
> might be developed.

It's been there for ages ("linux-ppc-system"):

http://aros.sourceforge.net/download.php#nightly-builds

> the PS3 would be slower than a G4 Powermac

Slower? But PS3 easly show 1080p AVCHD videos, but pmac G4 can't. Ok, slower :)