The new Efika MX is up for sale
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 24.04.2011 - 07:26 ]
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  • »09.10.09 - 07:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Velcro_SP wrote:

    What else did you say, "there is NOT one online shop that sells these." Here's one.


    "chodientu.vn"? The first time in my life, EVER, that I see a vietnamese web page. Velcro, you have to admit that this is, indeed, an obscure product. Alright, we can take computers that are not sold on Wall Mart, but this is too much.
  • »09.10.09 - 08:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:42 ]
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  • »09.10.09 - 10:51
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 24.04.2011 - 10:29 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »09.10.09 - 10:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I don't accept *your* representations about it as fact, not that I
    > denied the existence of the announcement and project altogether.

    What exactly are these "*your* representations about it" that you don't take as fact, if not my representation that this announcement and project regarding "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" existed?

    And btw, you said that by "5200B" you didn't refer to a processor but to "the 5200B board". What "5200B board" exactly? The Freescale Lite5200B, where you linked to the MPC5200B's product page in order to prove that "5200B" was a board, and which has no onboard gfx? Which you in turn claimed to be the reason as to why there couldn't be technically any MPC5200B based board with onboard gfx? Which you in turn used as evidence that the project announcement takemehomegrandma and me were talking of could never have been made?

    > This is nowhere near the level of error of your point blank "definitely"
    > assertion that THTF wasn't the source of the CherryPal Bing.

    ...where I admitted (that I admitted that I admitted) that I was wrong. You have not admitted that you wrongly denied the existence of the "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project and announcement.
  • »09.10.09 - 13:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What a dodge.

    It's not.

    > I can't just ask if the discussions include something, I have to
    > make sure to ask if they specifically include something by name?

    Only if you want to be pointed to discussions that specifically include something by name. If you just want to be pointed to discussions that include something by meaning, you don't have to.

    > The fact is those discussions did not include the MID-3G, only
    > broad references to LimePC in general

    No, they included references to the LimePC models meet.mrnrg was offering at that point in time. These were nowhere all LimePC models that existed back then. The MID 3G was amongst the devices he was offering.

    > and oh yes of course a further link to an eBay shop that at that
    > time included MID-3G.

    Exactly.

    > Your hypernym 7/7 maneuver was actually better than this
    > "denomination" one.

    It's one and the same argument. Think about it little harder.

    Would you eventually dare to answer my question from 15 days ago? You can find it there for instance.
  • »09.10.09 - 13:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
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    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 24.04.2011 - 07:18 ]
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  • »09.10.09 - 18:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I was saying that I need more than that to accept something as fact.

    More than what? More than my link to BBRV's announcement which I gave back in April in the Volari thread, which I hinted you at several times already?

    > I wasn't denying the existence of anything.

    You're running in circles. Again: What *exactly* are these "representations about it" that you don't take as fact? My "representation about it" was that this project announcement existed. If you don't take the existence of something as fact, you deny it's existence. There aren't exactly many possibilities besides existence and non-existence.

    > Genesi makes numerous announcements

    For sure. I even compared them to capricious women during menstruation here and there.

    > I wouldn't know what they said in each email two years ago.

    I never mentioned private conversation via email or even non-private conversation via email. I told you several times that this announcement from 3.5 years ago is public on Genesi's webserver (powerdeveloper.org). And this announcement led to news items on various websites, among them even non-Amiga ones. A quick Google search reveales:

    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2006-04-00078-EN.html
    http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2006-04-00078-DE.html (German version of above)
    http://www.ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=web&file=1145038429.msg
    http://www.ppcnux.de/?q=node/6311 (German)
    http://www.pegasos.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=984 (even predating the later announcement by referring to a prior statement of BBRV)
    http://www.ppcnux.de/?q=node/6278 (see above, German)

    BBRV referenced that project in their blog as well:
    http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2006/04/genesibook.html
    http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2006/05/open-source-3d-graphics-support.html [start with "The encore is the V3XE, which goes right on the next EFIKA."]

    > Why would I deny one of them?

    I don't know why you did. Tell me.

    > I'm sure they discussed many things.

    ...and they announced many things.

    > I don't deny those things.

    You did deny the existence of that particular "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project.

    > I just don't accept what Andreas Wolf says as fact because he says it.

    I had told you several times that the announcement is on Genesi's webserver and that I linked that announcement already. So there was no need to rely only on me. You just had to follow my link and read it yourself. You decided not to do so and instead continue your denial. Only you know why.

    > Some of it may be, some of it's not.

    That's why back in April I provided the link to that announcement and hinted you at that, so that you know it's a fact, not just "my fact". I didn't do that for fun.

    > each time I used the term 5200B I referred to a 5200B board

    You didn't say "a 5200B", but "*the* 5200B". There are dozens of MPC5200B based boards from many different manufacturers and vendors out on the market, maybe some even with onboard gfx. So which one did you mean?
    You later linked to the Freescale Lite5200B, which indeed has no onboard gfx, implying you meant that particular board ...no, wait, you linked to the MPC5200B *processor* product page claiming that was a board's product page.

    You wrote:

    "The 5200B [board] has a gfx card slot. The 5121e [board?] has onboard gfx."
    ...and...
    "A 5200B device doesn't have onboard gfx."
    ...and...
    "The reason that onboard graphics means the board couldn't be 5200B [board] is that the 5200B [board] doesn't have onboard graphics."

    Care to explain these statements, especially in context of the feasibility of Genesi's "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project?
    I already explained my opinion as to what your (failed) line of reasoning these "arguments" should serve. I'll recap: I think you wanted to illustrate that there couldn't be technically any MPC5200B based board with onboard gfx. Which would mean that the project announcement takemehomegrandma and me were talking of could never have been made.
    Should I be wrong, then please explain the purpose of you bringing into play other MPC5200B based boards.

    > and this was clear from the context.

    No it was not. First, "*the* 5200B" is hardly to associate with a board when you don't say which specific board (Or did you mean any MPC5200B based board on the planet?). Second, in the sentence before, you were referring to takemehomegrandma's mention of the MPC5200B *processor*. And third, in the next sentence you were referring to the MPC5121e *processor*. That's certainly not "clear", rather being confusing on purpose.

    > I wasn't distinguishing the Efika 5200B board from the Freescale
    > 5200B board.

    That's why you linked to the Freescale board and not to the Genesi board in a discussion about (announced) Genesi boards?

    > All throughout that quote I referred to board not SoC and I did not
    > say *MPC*5200B

    It's not unusual to omit the "MPC" prefix with Motorola/Freescale Power Architecture processors, just like it's very usual to omit the "MC" prefix with processors of the 68k line.

    Compare:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=site:lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/linuxppc-dev/+mpc5200b (644 finds)
    http://www.google.com/search?q=site:lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/linuxppc-dev/+5200b (104 finds)

    But it's certainly *not* usual to call the Efika 5200B or the Lite5200B or any other MPC5200B based board just "5200B". Up to now, the "Efika 5200B" denomination was shortened "Efika". (Of course, with the Efika MX coming up that's going to become ambiguous.)

    > and refer to the SoC

    Fair enough, but you still don't understand. Even if *I do* accept that by "5200B" you meant "MPC5200B based board", it still doesn't make any sense to me because I still don't know how reference to such other MPC5200B based boards would bear any implication for an "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project or its technical feasibility.

    > When I said "5200B device" I also referred to the board.

    Yes, and I did understand it exactly that way. Read my reply to that and you'll know.

    > It's your imagination running wild that I was using that to build
    > evidence for some case you claim I sought to make to deny the
    > existence of some Genesi announcement and project.

    Why do you keep failing to explain what the purpose of those "other 5200B [board]" arguments was? Instead you just keep insisting on what their purpose allegedly wasn't. Suspicious.

    > I didn't deny the existence of that.

    I still think you were.

    > I'm not gathering pieces here and there to try to prove you said it.

    I rather would also not have to do that. The problem is that you don't read my posts properly, if at all. You even confessed that. So I have to write and to quote numerous times the same things, else you would just ignore them forever. And without quoting someone it's hard to prove he said it.

    > You said it in a short emphatic sentence.

    That was because I felt sure of it. But I was wrong. And you are sure that a "5200B [board] has a gfx card slot", that "a 5200B device doesn't have onboard gfx" and that "the reason that onboard graphics means the board couldn't be 5200B [board] is that the 5200B [board] doesn't have onboard graphics".

    > I pointed out the error in your logic

    It was no error in logic, but lack of knowledge. I simply didn't know about the Atom based LimePC models.

    > The next time you call me mixed up and forgetful and whatever I'll
    > be reminding you that I never got so mixed up and forgetful to make
    > such a huge mistake as yours.

    If you can prove that I once knew about the Atom based LimePCs and had forgotten about them, you can call me "mixed up" and "forgetful". Else I was just wrong, as I confessed a gazillion times by now.
  • »09.10.09 - 23:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1213 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    why don't you guys go on in private ?
    find a common instant messaging program and keep cuddling there.
  • »10.10.09 - 11:11
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 24.04.2011 - 07:15 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »10.10.09 - 21:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I don't think you really think that. ;)

    Then you're wrong about what I think.

    Please answer:
    What exactly are my "representations about [Genesi's "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project]" that you don't take as fact?
    Care to explain your "other 5200B [board]" statements, especially in context of the feasibility of Genesi's "MPC5200B with onboard Volari gfx chip" project?
  • »11.10.09 - 10:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    >> It remains to be seen if any MPC5xxx processors will be produced in
    >> the future but seeing as the entire division at Freescale was
    >> disbanded and now most of the engineers are working on i.MX or at
    >> other companies.. and Freescale's PPC product group focusses on
    >> network and imaging processors rather than automotive..

    > http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1338824
    > http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC564xL

    And another one:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7014&forum=11
  • »12.04.10 - 04:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    >>> It remains to be seen if any MPC5xxx processors will be produced in
    >>> the future but seeing as the entire division at Freescale was
    >>> disbanded and now most of the engineers are working on i.MX or at
    >>> other companies.. and Freescale's PPC product group focusses on
    >>> network and imaging processors rather than automotive..

    >> http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1338824
    >> http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC564xL

    > And another one:
    > https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7014&forum=11

    Looking at page 42 of the following April 2010 document, I stand by my assessment that Freescale is not going to replace Power Architecture by i.MX products in the domain of automotive except for telematics and infotainment:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.freescale.com/files/training/doc/FREESCALE_COMPANY_OVERVIEW.pdf

    Or there (page 5, June 2010):

    http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2010/Americas/WBNR_FTF10_AUT_F0814_PDF.pdf

    In the following April 2010 document i.MX is not even mentioned before page 28 ("DIS and Infotainment"), and even there the MPC51xx/55xx/56xx are still listed (except for page 30):

    http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/brochure/BRAUTOSOL.pdf

    Edit: Changed link to Freescale company overview PDF to Google cache because document is no more.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf on 2011/1/3 22:09 ]
  • »22.06.10 - 03:30
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Are we losing sight of the fact that Matt wouldn't mind selling some more product?

    I don't know about the rest of you, but to me Genesi is a dead issue. Interesting product, I don't want one. I wasn't that impressed with Efika either. These are not desktop designs. While you can argue that compact systems have an advantage, I can just as easily point out that if you want a compact system you can buy an Apple Mac Mini.

    Too many of you seem willing to jump ship and move to other architectures simply because they're attracting more attention.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.06.10 - 20:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Are we losing sight of the fact that Matt wouldn't mind
    > selling some more product?

    I'm just not getting tired of pointing out that one year after he declared Power Architecture (MPC5xxx) dead for automotive it's still living happily in that domain with new products getting released by Freescale on a regular basis :-)

    Btw, I think you answered the wrong posting (see threaded view) ;-)
  • »22.06.10 - 21:05
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yes, a lot of posts between where my answer would have fit and where it is.

    Good point on the PPC alternatives to the ARM processor. If Matt and other Genesi's employees want to stay on Freescale's good side, they might not want to appear to be so biased toward one architecture.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.06.10 - 21:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Yes, a lot of posts between where my answer would have fit and where it is.

    That's not what I meant. Again: see threaded view to see what you answered to.

    > Good point on the PPC alternatives to the ARM processor.

    It's not about PPC being an alternative to ARM. I was mainly referring to automotive sub-domains (engine management, driver assistance etc.) where there's just no ARM counterpart available. About one year ago Neko predicted that ARM/i.MX would replace Power Architecture in these automotive sub-domains. It didn't, and I predict that it won't.
  • »22.06.10 - 22:13
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Matt's statements are often biased by his employer's focus.

    Why bother contending a claim like that? You should have known he wasn't that well informed when he failed to see the difference between processors designed for engine management and those suited to passenger devices.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.06.10 - 23:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Why bother contending a claim like that?

    To prove it was false.

    > You should have known he wasn't that well informed when he failed
    > to see the difference between processors designed for engine management
    > and those suited to passenger devices.

    I *knew* very well that he was wrong. By contending his claim I can *prove* he was wrong. Being able to prove something is better than just knowing (or believing to know?) it :-)
  • »22.06.10 - 23:49
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I don't know. Having spent too much time on Amiga related forums, the line between belief and knowing seems awfully frayed and abused.

    Sometime it helps to have someone around who helps to keep the distinction clear.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.06.10 - 00:07
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    to me Genesi is a dead issue. Interesting product, I don't want one.


    You mean the iMX 515 based products? I guess the problem is, you actually would want one, pity it doesn't exist. This was an attempt at a consumer product, and yet they haven't been able to deliver.

    Getting under freescale's wing looked very right when Genesi decided it. Then, building the Pegasos and actually selling them to freescale made that decision look bright. But then, the (unavoidable) Linux twist, and most of all, the delays in final chip productions, hurt the most.
    Heck, they even had a very hard time to finally get working something as simple as the original Efika. Then, the 512x fiasco, the 8610 false start... Too many developments stalled halfway.
    Genesi does all they can, but look at the smartbook and tablet boom at recent consumer electronics shows. And they still don't have final product.

    Quote:

    Too many of you seem willing to jump ship and move to other architectures simply because they're attracting more attention.


    ...and the funny thing is that, actually, Genesi was also moving to another architecture by someone else's decision too: They went to where freescale wenr.
    Have you seen their, once PowerPC-themed, "powerdeveloper.com" site recently? Hell, we weirdo morphers have MORE activity than them, with our "dead" platform!

    I tend to think that I owe Genesi something, because they were thete playing an important role in our Amigan/MorphOS history. But that's long gone. The MorphOS Team got independent from Genesi long ago, and they are not doing bad, considering the current global sittuation. In fact, what they do, they do it very well. MorphOS delivers.
  • »23.06.10 - 08:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > They went to where freescale wenr.

    Just want to add that Freescale/Motorola has been doing i.MX for nearly 10 years now.

    > Have you seen their, once PowerPC-themed, "powerdeveloper.com" site recently?
    > Hell, we weirdo morphers have MORE activity than them, with our "dead" platform!

    There's probably more activity on imxcommunity.org than on powerdeveloper.org today. But you should know that better I guess ;-)
  • »23.06.10 - 10:35
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1371 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ jcmarcos

    Quote:

    Genesi does all they can, but look at the smartbook and tablet boom at recent consumer electronics shows. And they still don't have final product.


    With regard to modern ARM chips (Cortex A8 / A9 level) at frequencies near of exceeding 1 Ghz, barely anybody appears to have consumer-ready products. In fact, a number of high-profile products such as Lenovo's Skylight have been cancelled before they went into mass production. HP's Compaq Airlife 100 is only sold in Spain for the time being, and so on.
  • »23.06.10 - 10:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > With regard to modern ARM chips (Cortex A8 / A9 level) at frequencies near of
    > exceeding 1 Ghz, barely anybody appears to have consumer-ready products.
    > In fact, a number of high-profile products such as Lenovo's Skylight have been cancelled
    > before they went into mass production. HP's Compaq Airlife 100 is only sold in Spain for
    > the time being, and so on.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartbook#Designs (Sharp NetWalker PC-Z1)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_(processor)#Devices_using_Snapdragon (various phones)
  • »23.06.10 - 11:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    Freescale/Motorola has been doing i.MX for nearly 10 years now.


    And yet, many would agree that there's been a switch.

    Quote:

    There's probably more activity on imxcommunity.org than on powerdeveloper.org today. But you should know that better I guess


    Sadly, there's no wolves over there ;-)

    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:

    With regard to modern ARM chips (Cortex A8 / A9 level) at frequencies near of exceeding 1 Ghz, barely anybody appears to have consumer-ready products


    Then, all those prototypes, that I percieve as success stories, actually aren't. Interesting.

    Quote:

    HP's Compaq Airlife 100 is only sold in Spain


    Wow! In my own, crisis devastated country? Those HP guys must be crazy... It's true, our biggest cell phone operator, Movistar, seems to sell it. Fascinating!
  • »23.06.10 - 12:23
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