Hi guys! I wanted to ask if it is so hard to realize a sort of boot disc that loads linux kernel and strat Mac on Linux (a sort of minimal linux installation that loads MOL. Does Amithlon do something similar?). I'm not interested in Linux and I'm totally neophite of it (infact I have not been able to complete Debian installation! ), but I'd really like to try MOL. Is nobody able to realize such sort of boot disk? I thing many other people will find it really useful. I will wait for your comments!
Milky I think they are working on something with the MOL author= not a boot cd though.. you should learn something about Linux though... running something like MOL is not easy.. magnetic
I'm in the same boat as you. I would love to just use MOL.... I"m trying to learn Linux now..
A MacOnlinux that could run in a similar fashion to Amithlon would be great. Basically just boot the bare essentials to start MOL and then somehow have the Mac display take over the entire screen and it would be great. Bernie are you listening, here is a chance for a "Mac-umilator". :)
Anyway I think the upcoming FAQ should solve a lot of problems with MOL and Linux in general.
Miky... I would like to see such Linux boot CD. I can't tell about others, but I have no interest on installing and running Linux on Pegasos. And I really would like to demonstrate (and perhaps even use?) MOL ...
I've been thinking about doing this actually, makeing a mac-on-linux boot cd for linux. But there is a few hurdles to over come:
namely,
1.The Zimage.chrp (linux) self uncompresses when booting, so line arguments are required to boot it, which at the moment is not automated. PC's do a similiar thing but use "lilo" to automate the process via a bootblock.
But when i have more time i will look into it.
Just a quick note for people waiting for the faq, its nearly there.
Good job djbmister! Surelly better to write 2 lines to start zimage then installing an entire linux destrebution and onfigure it only to run MOL! We all will wait with desire the first beta of your Boot-disc! Let's start to cross fingers... : )
Did you buy a PegasOS machine to run MorphOS because you wanted an Amiga or did you buy it so you could get around having to buy Apple hardware to run OSX? Its just starting to get on my nerves hearing "oh and you can run OSX thru MOL on it too" like its a selling feature or something.
You buy a PegasOS because you want an Amiga - not so you can have a cheap hacked together Apple that may or may not support everything in your system.
I can not talk for the others. I bought a Pegasos to be able to run my old Amiga programs and the new Morphos programs. I'm using an Amiga since 1996 because my AppleIIGS with GS/OS was dying. I'm using a Pegasos because I don't want to use mainstream OSes and PCs and I also want to be able to experiment with this machine. So I will also install Debian and MOL on it because it's fun. So Vincent, don't be so angry and let people do with their machine what they want.
Its not that, I can really tell anyone else what to do. But it is slightly disconcerting and depressing that our community outwardly expresses and encourages that it doesn't care about EULAs. As a programer its not exactly the kind of place that would instill in me a desire to code anything.
Sure one can try justify it saying that they at least bought a copy of OSX or OS9 to run in MOL, but doesn't change anything. Its a choice to violate a EULA when it suits one's purposes - no matter how one wants spin it to make themselves feel better. Again I understand thats a decision that each individual takes - but telling me to hush and let people just blatantly advertise it everywhere as if its selling point? This isn't exactly the kind of activity the community should be encouraging.
@Vincent Is the EULA violated when you use MOL? Or when you don't buy MacOS X? It is clear for me that I will buy MacOS X when I use MOL, I don't use pirated SW because it's illegal and in our community it kills programmers and finally also the users.
But I hope that at least MOL (without OS and SW) is allowed?????
I'm not currently at home, or I'd scan and paste the relevant part of the EULA here for you. A paraphrase though is that the License Agreement allows the owner to run Mac OS X on Apple Certified Hardware Only.
This is one of the reasons TerraSoft, the makers of YellowDog linux which comes with MOL and advertises running MacOS actually acquired a license to be an Apple Hardware Reseller. So yes, even if you buy OSX - you're still breaking the EULA. It seems like a stupid rule - but first and foremost Apple is a hardware company. People may see it as selling one more copy of OSX, but Apple has made it clear they see it as not selling one more Mac Computer.
I read before that you thought OS X would perform better on a PegasOS 2. It won't. Granted its been a while since I've used my friend's iBook which had a 500mhz G3, and a Rage 128 8mb video card, but it still ran rather well - pretty comparable to my G4 500 PowerBook.
You see, the G4 is pretty much a G3 core with 3 extra pipe stages and the AltiVec vector processing stack. Not a whole lot of change speed wise for non-vectored code. (You can find an in-depth explanation on ArsTechnica.) What gave OSX the real speed up was QuartzExtreme in 10.2 - which works by off-loading the GUI composting to the video card. The catch is that its done in OpenGL so the video card in your Mac had to able to run OpenGL. (I.E. pre-Rage128 chips won't hack it.)
Thats not the case in MOL - there is no hardware graphics acceleration support. Check you'll see. So even getting a PegasOS 2 won't help all that much despite being a G4. A clock increase would always help, and so would better video card emulation in MOL. Right now the current iBooks 800mhz G3 with Radeon Cards run OSX quite well if that tells you anything about the importance of QuartzExtreme over AltiVec.
Hi Vincent_X! I PERFECTLY knew about the OpenGL needed to accelerate MacOSX GUI, infact I spoked about it somewhere here. However I knew that also Altivec was needed to improve speed of MacOSX that pretends it. I'm not a Macos expert so I ask you: you tell me that presence of Altivec will not improve speed of MacOSX at all? Thanks.
@djbmister HI DJbmister! So what about this project!? At wich point is the boot disc for MOL? Many of us are really interested in it and we are patiently waiting for it. What can you tell us about its state? Thanks a loooot and good job! :)
Altivec is useful only for code that uses it. AltiVec is the same thing that IBM calls SMID. Its a 128bit vector processing unit, it performs equivalent actions as an ALU would for integers. In essence if you have a command that requires an integer operation say 1 + 2 that will be handled by the ALU. If you have a vector command say the dot product 4 and 5 then that will be processed by the SMID stack or AltiVec. Therefore Altivec only helps if you have programs that utilize AltiVec. Programs that do use it significantly include Final Cut Pro, Shake, Pro Logic, iMovie, DVD Studio Pro, iDVD, Photoshop, iTunes. As you can see namely audio, video and photo editing software. The OS itself doesn't really use AltiVec - there is no need to, nor do most of the "normal" applications like browsers, word processors, internet chat tools, or most of the BSD subsystem. Their code doesn't easily lend itself to batch vector processes. So unless your using a multimedia intensive application that was specifically designed with vectorized code, AltiVec will not speed anything up in and of itself alone.
Miky, you do realize that if djbmister makes a bootable MOL -> OSX CD that has OSX on it, he can't legally distribute it nor can you legally use it? As in PERFECTLY not allowed by the OS License Agreement.
Miky, you do realize that if djbmister makes a bootable MOL -> OSX CD that has OSX on it, he can't legally distribute it nor can you legally use it? As in PERFECTLY not allowed by the OS License Agreement.
I certainly hope he doesn't make it with the OS, because I would prefer to have MacOS 9 for now!
@Vincent X Ok.. it looks like we have another "its illegal" guy. A jealous Mac user? :P All these 'its illegal' people, what are they fbi agents? All of sudden everyone is legal with computer usage. I"m sure you have never had any "copied backup" programs on your computer. Or recorded tv to your vcr, or sped on the highway... blah blah.. This is such a tiresome argument. In the USA it does violate Mac EULA to run this software on a non Mac EVEN if you own the software. However, I doubt apple would take a single user to court over a software Item they own as the EULA probably hold up in court.
btw MOL has an Altivec yes/no switch so YES the g4 will make a difference. I can also tell you that OS 9 on the G3 600mhz is MUCH faster than a comprapble make on a lot of things.. :) magnetic
"HI DJbmister! So what about this project!? At wich point is the boot disc for MOL? Many of us are really interested in it and we are patiently waiting for it. What can you tell us about its state?"
Well, as vincentx is correct in saying that i cant distrubute the OS, but i can distrubute the MOL.
I've looked into making a mac-on-linux bootCD, and basically i've improved the idea. A pegasos-debian-CD!.
Doesn't need to be bootable, as the morphos drive contains the boot.img. take a look at my website if you are interested http://uk.geocities.com/david260179
Thanks a loooot and good job! :)
no problems, its taking a while, but the fruits of my labour are nearly here.
I MUST STATE that the project "Pegasos-Debian-CD" is a free project, and the only cost is my time and material.
I guess its not cool to try and be legal? Instead your "adopt the lowest common denomiator" approach is a much cooler motto? Afterall, if Apple isn't going to sue you individually you aren't at risk of getting punished so it really isn't wrong right?
To use your example, if I speed - I know am speeding and doing something wrong. However around here, not everyone seems to know about what the OSX EULA says. (Which by the way, the US isn't the only country that recognizes them.) There is a major difference between knowingly speeding on the highway and encouraging others to use MOL the way people are here. Conveniently not telling others what the EULA states and instead encouraging the rest of the community to participate in whats is going as if its a PegasOS feature could be mistaken for fraudulent claims.
Obviously, this is something Genesi has been careful about as can be see on their website. None of the Apple Operating Systems are listed as "supported" operating systems for PegasOS hardware. Its too bad you seem to have this perception that as long you don't get caught its ok and to also encourage others without at the very least explaining to them what they do might not be legal.
By the way, trying reading my posts. I never said MOL had a problem with altivec, I said it has a problem with hardware graphics acceleration so you don't get the major speed increase of Quartz Extreme.
Hi DJminster!! What do you intend for "Pegasos-Debian-CD"? That I will download the iso, burn on a CD, copy the files on a HD partition, reset and I will have linux installed!!?? If so this is a perfect solution for newbees like me! It's excellent! And what about different Pegasos configurations? I have a Radeon 8500: it will automatically work after I have copied all files on HD!? Thanks a lot and sorry if I'm so ignorant about linux stuff
First MOL is not necessarely used to run OSX. It can run a lot of Linuxes and BSD variants we do not have yet on the Pegasos. Even older MACOS had no such EULA requiring the use of an Apple Macintosh. Then to finish EULA are not above country laws. There is no known case about a personnal users being sued by breaking the EULA yet. This clause in the EULA is essentialy to prevent Apple to support OSX on older MAC clones such as power computing and UMAX.
I agree that Genesi should certainly not promote the use of it as the point is not to sell the Pegasos as a cheap macintosh clone.
But going after individual end users is ridiculous. Bleem won the case when sued by Sony. The law and the judges prevail on the laws companies try to enforce.
thanks for making that post. Now I know to never do business with magnetic systems.
You see, you have no respect for contracts. I'm surprised you have been in business for long, I have worked for many large corporations and we would never do business with anyone who doesn't respect a license agreement.
It goes to character. It goes to even whether you respect written words and contracts.
FBI agent, indeed....no its about whether two people, can come together, make a contract, and have a reasonable expectation that the contract means something.
This is universal and has nothing to do with copyright laws of an individual country.
In every country of the world that end user who bought Mac OS X, checked a box saying 'I have read the agreement and I agree.'
You have given no intellectual reason for lying in your entire post, except you can get away with it. You can probably get away with selling a system and not honoring warranties or providing any service as well.
You can get away with it, and the FBI will never throw you in jail for doing it.
It's precisely because its so easy to get away with this type of thing, that I will never do business with you.
Not ever.
I'm already a lost cause, but keep talking, maybe you'll lose some more business as well.
I am glad I didn't start this thread here. I just want to enjoy this platform and develop some code, but I do not enjoy all the talk of illegal activity.
You all have been warned repeatedly...you are well aware its criminal activity. I'll report anyone who goes too far, I'll do it in a heart beat and not worry about it.
So best not ever include Mac OS X on a commercial CD...understand at some level this type of criminal activity, *WILL* be forced underground, so don't make too many plans on it.
@RobertD. What the hell are you talking about? I WILL NOT BE SELLING OR INCLUDING ANY COMMERCIAL ANYTHING ON ANYTHIN WE SELL WITHOUT A LISCENSE. I'm not advocating "criminal behavior" I do DISAGREE with the EULA and with the fact that if YOU OWN OSX and paid for it with your money you can do whatever you want with it. Unfortunately, that is not what you agree to when you install.. YOu are taking this WAY to far. You have very extremist views. If you want to report people and have gestapo like tactics that is your consciousness. We are a legit business and never endorse anything illegal or market anything illegal. I have run the MOL for experimental/research purpose only and I am an APPLE certified tech! So lets end this foolish talk. magnetic
Well I thought I had already said my peace, which was that people should know that its against the EULA to MOL for running OSX on non-Apple Hardware. Obviously I can't stop anyone from doing it - but at least they know.
Djbmister - maybe you could put a small notification about the Apple EULA on your site like Maconlinux.com does. It obviously won't stop people from doing whatever they want - but this way people who might not be aware of the legality issues will know.
Magnetic - all you've done in this thread is give excuses for why its should be ok for you to break the law. You live in the US so it is in fact against the law for you. First it was - its ok, Apple won't sue individuals. Then it was, other countries don't enforce EULAs. Although the BSA operates thru EULA violations including the European BSA - so that comment was mostly BS outside of the Netherlands. Most recently your justification has changed to - disagreement with parts of the EULA so you're not going to follow them; doing research/experimenting; and justifying it by saying you're an Apple Certified Tech. Last I checked being a certified tech/reseller doesn't make you above the EULA. Certified Techs/Resellers are not even allowed to pre-install new OSs - do you really think Apple allows them to "experiement with the OS on other hardware"? Then there is the disagreement with a parts of the license and subsequent "al a carte'ing of the EULA". This is a common excuse - windows wants a license for each machine running windows in their EULA, but people don't "agree" with that so they install the same one on every PC they own saying that is ok because they are only ignoring part of the EULA. I believe this is also the most common reason the BSA sues companies. So that excuse doesn't hold up in court either. Then their is your research - who's funding it? who approved it? whats the research for? I can say I'm picking my nose for research but that won't exempt me from obeying the law. Why don't you just admit its not legal and shouldn't be done, instead of making a million half-baked excuses for why its not legal but should OK for you? I'm not saying you have to follow the law if you don't want to, but don't come around here advertising it and then makeing excuses for why its ok.
EDIT:
Additionally Magnetic, I went to magnetic systems after Robert's post and looked around... as for not advertising the sale of unlicensed products:
"You will have your choice of high, middle, or low end hardware and case specifications along with a choice of operating systems like Linux, BeOS, MacOS, MorphOS, and others. Multiple operating system designs will be offered as well." This was on the PegasOS temporary page. You plan on selling custom PegasOS machines with MacOS and what license?
Also in you business site's featured review there is again: "Not only that but I am currently installing Mac On Linux in Debian so I can boot up to Mac OS X Jaguar on my Pegasos. I will then have 4 Full operating Systems on this machine BeOs, MorphOS, Linux, MacOS X! A true supercomputer." So is this a personal review or one meant as a company advertisement?
Both the comment on the PegasOS section of your companies page and the one in the featured review looks a lot like an advertisement/intent to sell machines with unlicensed software. Have an excuse for that as well?
Vincent You must have A LOT of time on your hands. It says Choice of Operating systems CHOICE - not WE WILL BE SELLING MAC OS CLONE MACHINES or whatever you want to twist my words into.. WE WILL NOT BE SELLING MAC OS MACHINES PERIOD. END OF STORY. WHAT I DO PERSONALLY IS MY OWN BUSINESS AND YOU SHOULD MIND YOUR OWN. Now go about your life I will not respond anymore to your insults or allegations. magnetic
ps This is normally a peaceful place. Lets keep it like that. This has gone on enough. Go on a crusade on Ann or Amigaworld.
), but I'd really like to try MOL. Is nobody able to realize such sort of boot disk? I thing many other people will find it really useful.
Targhan