Morphos 3.19/3,20 ?
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2308 from 2003/2/24
    @Cego

    Unless you want MorphOS on your phone, smart TV or fridge, desktop is what it is.

    You also don‘t need 500W to get faster single threaded than anything ARM.

    And thats the issue, as it stands today we do need single threaded as fast as possible and even with the best Intel or AMD it will be the limiting factor.
  • »19.09.24 - 14:27
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 553 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    My 2 cents so far:

    These 'MorphOS on alternative arch'-discussions pop up more often when the last released MorpOS version is already more than a year behind. So maybe even a new PPC-MorphOS version will silence them (for some time). ;-)

    While valid points are nicely discussed I doubt a discussion in an user thread will convince one or more devs to scrap their already existing x86_64 MorphOS Alpha and start on another architecture from scratch. Also this would postpone 'MorphOS on alternative arch' even more... While I personally also would 'like' an ARM version, the x86_64 route already has been taken so x86_64 it will be.

    What hasn't been broadly discussed is the documentaion available/needed to port for ARM boards. These boards seem to run 'nice' on Linux, but it is easily forgotten that most of the time they only do with vendor kernels and binary blobs (especially for GPU drivers). So practically most of the time you would port to a board running an outdated vendor kernel + proprietary drivers and with scarce documentation. The Raspberries would be among the best supported, but still RPi 5 has no full mainstream kernel support (might probably take another year) yet... RPi 4 would be ok kernel-wise, but I don't know about the GPU.

    So in the ARM case a big amount of reverse engineering would be needed to get things going, as in the Linux world. On the x86_64 side this situation is much better. There are also a lot more standards used (UEFI, ACPI, ...) An AMD B450 board is not totally different from another AMD B450 board. An ARM-SBC running a Cortex-A76 CPU probably is totally different from another ARM-SBC running a Cortex-A76 + documentation is scarce...

    Also as Kronos states for MorphOS in it's current state only single core performance would be of interest. In this regard the RPi 3 most certainly is slower (1,4 GHz CPU A53 vs. 2,3 GHz G5), also RPi 3 storage via USB is slower than SATA-1. Only the RPi 4 might get en-par performance (1,8 GHz A72 + larger cache than G5) or is slightly faster. USB-performance also is better than RPi 3.

    Regarding the efforts needed to get MorphOS to work even on one ARM board, which is not magnitudes faster than currently supported PPC hardware, the x86_64 route still seems a good choice for the time being. Especially as quite some work has already been done.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »19.09.24 - 17:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12134 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Raspberry Pi 3B+ already does as well as a PowerMac G5.

    Like ernsteiswuerfel, I really doubt that for per-core performance.
  • »19.09.24 - 18:24
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Georg
    Posts: 110 from 2004/4/7
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:

    Regarding the efforts needed to get MorphOS to work even on one ARM board


    Run the A/Box hosted or virtualized like is already the case on PPC. But instead of Quark use something which already works on the board. Hide it and don't tell anybody and everyone will think they are running native. Like they do on PPC.
  • »19.09.24 - 18:46
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    r-tea
    Posts: 303 from 2005/3/27
    From: Poland, Zdzies...
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    @cip060

    So no, HW is not the issue, what would be an issue (IMO) is that the underusage of the HW would be even more apparent when everyone has AT LEAST 4 cores and 8GB of RAM.


    No one said future MorphOS wouldn't support multiple cores and more RAM.
    Mac mini G4@1,5GHz silent upgrade + Xerox Phaser 3140 + EPSON Perfection 1240U
    Commodore C64C + 2 x 1541II + Datasette + SD-Box

    I miss draggable screens... and do you? I know I'm in a minority unfortunately.
  • »24.09.24 - 19:11
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2308 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    r-tea wrote:


    No one said future MorphOS wouldn't support multiple cores and more RAM.




    Yep, and that would be the hard part compared to the relatively simple task of running the current state of MorphOS on a different CPU.
  • »24.09.24 - 21:01
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 5 from 2024/9/15
    Quote:

    r-tea a écrit :
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    @cip060

    So no, HW is not the issue, what would be an issue (IMO) is that the underusage of the HW would be even more apparent when everyone has AT LEAST 4 cores and 8GB of RAM.


    No one said future MorphOS wouldn't support multiple cores and more RAM.




    If we go into dreams, I imagine going directly to Morphos 4.1 Final Edition Update 2. Its characteristics would be:
    - PPC support (Mac G4, G5, AmigaOne), X64 (APU Rizen on laptop and desktop) and ARM (Raspberry Pi 4/400/5, Chromebooks PPC, Orange Pi, Mac Silicon) with universal binaries.
    - PPC JIT interpreter and 68k JIT for old apps.
    - Abox classic 68K/PPC.
    - Abox NG PPC (AmigaOS 4, MorphOS "classic" apps).
    - memory protection (for old apps, each would be launched in a dedicated instance of its box to not crash the rest).
    - support for more than 1.8GB of RAM.
    - use of the Qbox.
    - multicore support.
    - multi-user support.
    - full Vulkan and OpenGL support for recent or integrated cards.
    - support for hardware video decoding and encoding integrated into modern GPUs (VP9, x265, h264...).
    - more printer drivers.
    - port of LibreOffice integrated into the OS like IRIS and Wayfarer (it's the last office brick I'm missing).
    - of course, MorphOS would still be as light and fast.

    All available to celebrate Christmas 2024. I accept February 2025 for my birthday.

    Thanks ! :-)
  • »25.09.24 - 10:08
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 20 from 2022/8/17
    Quote:

    Pistouillette wrote:
    Quote:

    r-tea a écrit :
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    @cip060

    So no, HW is not the issue, what would be an issue (IMO) is that the underusage of the HW would be even more apparent when everyone has AT LEAST 4 cores and 8GB of RAM.


    No one said future MorphOS wouldn't support multiple cores and more RAM.




    If we go into dreams, I imagine going directly to Morphos 4.1 Final Edition Update 2. Its characteristics would be:
    - PPC support (Mac G4, G5, AmigaOne), X64 (APU Rizen on laptop and desktop) and ARM (Raspberry Pi 4/400/5, Chromebooks PPC, Orange Pi, Mac Silicon) with universal binaries.
    - PPC JIT interpreter and 68k JIT for old apps.
    - Abox classic 68K/PPC.
    - Abox NG PPC (AmigaOS 4, MorphOS "classic" apps).
    - memory protection (for old apps, each would be launched in a dedicated instance of its box to not crash the rest).
    - support for more than 1.8GB of RAM.
    - use of the Qbox.
    - multicore support.
    - multi-user support.
    - full Vulkan and OpenGL support for recent or integrated cards.
    - support for hardware video decoding and encoding integrated into modern GPUs (VP9, x265, h264...).
    - more printer drivers.
    - port of LibreOffice integrated into the OS like IRIS and Wayfarer (it's the last office brick I'm missing).
    - of course, MorphOS would still be as light and fast.

    All available to celebrate Christmas 2024. I accept February 2025 for my birthday.

    Thanks ! :-)


    You made my day with this post! :)
  • »25.09.24 - 12:40
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    cip060
    Posts: 141 from 2010/7/30
    Any NEWS?
  • »08.10.24 - 09:14
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  • Just looking around
    jarokuczi
    Posts: 19 from 2016/12/6
    I've heard some rumors that MOS team is working on MorphOS 3.19. But don't quote me on that
  • »08.10.24 - 21:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12134 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I've heard some rumors that MOS team is working on MorphOS 3.19.
    > But don't quote me on that

    Of course they are working on 3.19. Every bug fix commited to the MorphOS repository that takes place after the release of 3.18 automatically constitutes work on 3.19.

    Edit: slight correction (thanks geit)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 09.10.2024 - 02:09 ]
  • »08.10.24 - 22:29
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 1046 from 2004/9/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I've heard some rumors that MOS team is working on MorphOS 3.19.
    > But don't quote me on that

    Of course they are working on 3.19. Every change to the MorphOS repository that takes place after the release of 3.18 automatically constitutes work on 3.19.


    To be the nitpicker here. This is not true. Several changes only apply to MorphOS 3.20, as 3.19 is considered to be just a bug-fix update, even so we broke that rule in the past several times.
  • »08.10.24 - 23:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12134 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 3.19 is considered to be just a bug-fix update

    Yes, 'bug fix', not 'change'. Thanks, corrected.

    > Several changes only apply to MorphOS 3.20

    Yes, you are obviously already working on 3.20 :-)
  • »09.10.24 - 01:11
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 5 from 2024/9/15
    Quote:

    cip060 a écrit :
    Any NEWS?


    Two more weeks.
  • »09.10.24 - 13:08
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2308 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Pistouillette wrote:
    Quote:

    cip060 a écrit :
    Any NEWS?


    Two more weeks.


    Nah you‘ll have to wait for M-Day.
  • »09.10.24 - 14:13
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 693 from 2004/2/10
    Great to see that MorphOS is moving along.

    I'm much more interested in the applications being developed at this point.

    I rely heavily on Iris, PolyOrga, VPDF, Wayfarer, and a bunch of other programs. Most of them are very actively developed and that is the value of MorphOS.

    Sure, new killer hardware and OS Update, would make my day to day even faster... But for most things the 2.5 is more that fast enough... So back to the applications :)
  • »09.10.24 - 17:54
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