NTFS partitions on MorphOS HD
  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Is it "safe" to have also NTFS partitions on a MorphOS HD? What is the correct way to create such, if it does matter?

    HD Config can create a NTFS partitions but cannot format it due to write protection. That is not a big issue as it can be formatted with AmigaOS4.1 normally. Other choise is to create the partition from the beginning with GParted (Linux).

    Parttions created with both ways seem to work, but are there any hidden problems...?

    I need NTFS for raw file transfers (file size often several GBs) between AmigaOS and Linux, and as MOS takes very little space on disk it is practical to use the unused disk capacity for this purpose! ( FAT is not an option due to the size limit).
  • »28.04.21 - 08:26
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 618 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    why not ext2 mounted on morphos?
  • »28.04.21 - 11:21
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    why not ext2 mounted on morphos?

    Yes, that would indeed allow the exchange between Linux and MOS... But AmigaOS does not have native support for EXT2, and the third-party package in Aminet is limited to 2 GB file size and you have to play with mountlists.

    On Linux side, it is much easier to use NTFS for shared partitions as they are not 'owned' by anyone! Ext partitions are, and you have to use root priviledges to mount them and save data, unless you predefine them in fstab. Which is laborous if you use/test several distros/installations,.. Also, if the parttion is removed or relabeld, you have to again edit fstab on each Linux installation you use, or your installations will be unbootable.

    But back to my original question:

    Is it safe to use NTFS partitions on disks with MorphOS RDB?
  • »29.04.21 - 09:36
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Quote:

    Is it "safe" to have also NTFS partitions on a MorphOS HD? What is the correct way to create such, if it does matter?


    My original question (see above) has not yet been answered! So, PLEASE....
  • »07.04.22 - 07:19
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Why it can be not safe?
    You can find issues with file protection bits. And probably with links.

    Once I had NTFS partition on my Pegasos 2, the reason was the same - exchange files between MOS/AOS/linux. All was OK, but I had small partition and small files, like configs and so, it is slightly other case. Today I shared everything via network server, because of big number of MOS/AOS machines.
    And I allways use only one! partitioning tool. On Pegasos 2 it was MOS HDconfig.
    Don't mix tools from AOS/MOS/MacOSX/linux. Maybe it is safe on X5000 (or what computer you have), but once I totally mismatched HDD on powerbook - the same partition had different size under MacOSX and MorphOS ;-))

    Try to see this:
    Filesysbox NTFS with SATA HD on X1000 - Part 1
    Filesysbox NTFS with SATA HD on X1000 - Part 2
    maybe it helps.

    And if it works on AmigaOS without problems, it will on MorphOS for sure. System things MOS have allways better.

    [ Edited by sailor 07.04.2022 - 09:44 ]
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »07.04.22 - 07:35
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    @Sailor
    Thank you for your answer!

    Quote:

    Why it can be not safe?


    I have earlier had serious problems with a Mac formatted disk, on which I has created a NTFS partion from Linux. When I edited the disk again from MacOS (adding a new partition to an empty space), the NTFS partition totally dissappeared!

    Quote:

    And I allways use only one! partitioning tool. On Pegasos 2 it was MOS HDconfig.
    Don't mix tools from AOS/MOS/MacOSX/linux. Maybe it is safe on X5000 (or what computer you have), but once I totally mismatched HDD on powerbook - the same partition had different size under MacOSX and MorphOS ;-))


    I would prefer to use HDToolbox, but is possible to use it on a disk on which you have MOS? I'm afraid MOS installer does not accept a disk prepared by HDToolbox, without wanting to reformat it first. And if you use HDToolbox on a disk already having MOS, it considers it 'corrupted' and fixes something on it, before it can do any further changes on the disk.

    Quote:

    And if it works on AmigaOS without problems, it will on MorphOS for sure. System things MOS have allways better.


    So, is the trick just to use the identifier '4E544653', whatever tool you use? But as MOS cannot write on a NTFS partition, can it even format it?
  • »07.04.22 - 08:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    Renoir wrote:
    I have earlier had serious problems with a Mac formatted disk, on which I has created a NTFS partion from Linux. When I edited the disk again from MacOS (adding a new partition to an empty space), the NTFS partition totally dissappeared!


    Yes, this is the exact thing why not to use many HD configuration tools on one the same disk.

    Quote:

    I would prefer to use HDToolbox, but is possible to use it on a disk on which you have MOS? I'm afraid MOS installer does not accept a disk prepared by HDToolbox, without wanting to reformat it first. And if you use HDToolbox on a disk already having MOS, it considers it 'corrupted' and fixes something on it, before it can do any further changes on the disk.


    Sorry, this I don't know. My only machine with MOS+AOS combination is Pegasos 2. And there was first MorphOS, so I everything prepare with MOS HDConfig and then format under AmigaOS or linux.
    You have to try. You cannot destroy the disk by add/remove partitions, only data on it. Try to made partition with AOS, and format it with MOS.
    The difference I know between HDConfig and HDToolBox is, that AOS have marked "last drive", MOS not. Message "last drive is not correct" is opened, when you open MOS prepared disk with AOS HDToolbox. But you can safety ignore it. Or fix it, it doesn't matter.

    Quote:

    So, is the trick just to use the identifier '4E544653', whatever tool you use? But as MOS cannot write on a NTFS partition, can it even format it?

    I dont use custom identifiers much. I am not 100% sure, but I think they have only information reason. Maybe system offer automatically right filesystem for formatting, but you can freely select other. Of course, do not use builtin identifiers (DOS/FFS/SFS) for other filesysystems. It can be used for automount.

    '4E544653'='NTFS' in ASCII.
    I had linux filesysystems marked like 'ext3' or 'ext4', but 'lnx1' or 'lnx2' works also fine.
    In any case '4E544653' is good identifier for NTFS ;-)



    [ Edited by sailor 07.04.2022 - 10:50 ]
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »07.04.22 - 08:47
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    And formatting NTFS under MOS I also don't know. I forgot under which system I formatted my NTFS partition, but probably under linux, becouse I expected here best support.
    Try it. You cannot destroy the disk.



    [ Edited by sailor 07.04.2022 - 10:58 ]
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »07.04.22 - 08:57
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > MOS cannot write on a NTFS partition

    It can with NTFS-3G, which is 3rd party.

    https://library.morph.zone/Filesystems

    I tried NTFS-3G... But I cannot get the partitions formatted. If I use the 'Format' tool, it gives just an error message: "Initialization failed".

    If I try 'mkntfs' (e.g. "mkntfs -f NG1:"), it says: "The sector size is invalid. The minimum size is 256 bytes and the maximum is 4096 bytes". This happens even if I have prepared the disk with HDConfig (chosen 'auto' from the options; selecting 'fix' does not change anything).

    I have already made the adviced changes in env-arhive/sys (removed poseidon.prefs and created a text file named 'filesystems.conf' having the line "DosType=0x4e544653 Filesystem="L:NTFileSystem3G" Name="NTFS").

    Any idea how to solve this issue?
  • »21.04.22 - 06:14
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Amigaharry2
    Posts: 980 from 2010/1/6
    From: EU-Austria (Wien)
    Works here perfect! Tessted ist with a USB-HD (UMSD2).

    MKNTFS -Q UMSD2 -L MyVolume


    In HD-Tools set rootblock to MBR, make a Partition and choose NTFS. Save it (and probably reboot). Then format with sequence above. Can read and write unter MOS.

    Testet under Windows7 - works!

    [ Editiert durch Amigaharry2 21.04.2022 - 13:03 ]
    Peg2, 3xPowerMac G5, 2xPowerbookG4, 2x MacMiniG4, Efika (again), A3000T and life is never boring.....
  • »21.04.22 - 11:02
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Quote:

    In HD-Tools set rootblock to MBR, make a Partition and choose NTFS. Save it (and probably reboot). Then format with sequence above. Can read and write unter MOS.

    MBR ??? But... You cannot have MOS installed on such disk, can you?! You have to use RDB?

    I would like to have the NTFS partition precisely on the MOS HD, as the OS itself and programs take so little space that the rest of disk capcity would be otherwise wasted! Remember that there are only two Sata2 HD connectors in X5000, and the other is already used by OS 4.1 disk (which in my case is very occupied).
  • »21.04.22 - 14:34
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Amigaharry2
    Posts: 980 from 2010/1/6
    From: EU-Austria (Wien)
    Useing PEGASOS or EFIKA?
    What's the problem? Copy NTFSFilesystem3G to L: or load it into RDB.
    In HDTOOLBOX choose CustomFS and enter correct ID (0x4E544653)
    Works on my PEG and EFIKA too.

    For info: You will find NTFSFilesystem also in MorphOS:L, but this is the non-writable version. If there is another FS-Version in System:L , or RDB, then MOS will use this version.

    Format partition as discribed above.

    Btw. It is possible to boot MorphOS-System from any FS, if a driver exists in RDB or L: on a readable initial-partition (e.g. a boot-partition in HFS) - but you can boot boot.img only from filesystems build in in OpenFirmware (ISO, SFS, HFS, FAT - depends on machine).

    [ Editiert durch Amigaharry2 21.04.2022 - 22:16 ]
    Peg2, 3xPowerMac G5, 2xPowerbookG4, 2x MacMiniG4, Efika (again), A3000T and life is never boring.....
  • »21.04.22 - 19:23
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 43 from 2021/4/18
    Quote:

    Amigaharry2 wrote:
    Useing PEGASOS or EFIKA?

    As said, X5000.

    Quote:

    What's the problem? Copy NTFSFilesystem3G to L: or load it into RDB.
    In HDTOOLBOX choose CustomFS and enter correct ID (0x4E544653).

    That's exactly what I did, but I already told I get this error message when I try to format it:

    "The sector size is invalid. The minimum size is 256 bytes and the maximum is 4096 bytes"

    What does cause this error? Does it appear also in your system, if you try to place a NTFS-3G partition on a RDB disk?

    Quote:

    For info: You will find NTFSFilesystem also in MorphOS:L, but this is the non-writable version. If there is another FS-Version in System:L , or RDB, then MOS will use this version.

    I tested even to remove totally the original non-writable version but it did not solve the problem.

    Quote:

    Btw. It is possible to boot MorphOS-System from any FS, if a driver exists in RDB or L: on a readable initial-partition (e.g. a boot-partition in HFS) - but you can boot boot.img only from filesystems build in in OpenFirmware (ISO, SFS, HFS, FAT - depends on machine).

    In X5000 the MorpOS-System and boot.img HAS to be on the same partition! And X5000's U-boot accepts only SFS/FFS and FAT, and as the latter one is not suitable for MOS filessystem (e.g. flags are missing), it is only possible to boot MOS from a disk with RDB.

    So, the problem is: how to get succesfully a NGFS-3G partition on a RDB disk formatted?

    I can of course create NTFS partition from Linux, but after that it is not anymore possible to use MOS disk tools to control even the SFS the partitions (HDconfig cannot save any changes to the disk).
  • »21.04.22 - 20:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > It is possible to boot MorphOS-System from any FS, if
    > a driver exists in RDB or L: on a readable initial-partition

    L: on a non-system partition? How so? A filesystem driver in L:, even on the system partition, would only help to mount a further partition. For booting the system partition, the filesystem driver can be in the RDB of the storage medium (as you said) or contained in the boot.img on another partition.

    > you can boot boot.img only from filesystems build in in OpenFirmware

    X5000 uses U-Boot and Hyperbootloader.
  • »21.04.22 - 23:44
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