How to run MorphOS on unsupported G5 PCIe
  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 518 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    Hi, some remarks from your unsupport team.

    1. Prepare a CD with MorphOS 3.12
    - for quick test you can put HD from existing PowerMac G5 AGP machine to PCIe one
    - sound is supported
    - ide is supported
    - sata is supported
    - usb is supported
    - fans handling is supported
    - temperature sensors are supported
    - onboard lan is not supported
    - pcie Rs232 cards for getting debuglog may work (but i have one and it doesn't)

    2. Add some supported Radeon card
    - nvidia isn't handled and it won't be
    - Original X1900GT mac version should work
    - Flashed with MAC bios R500 series should also be handled, Sapphire X1950XT (with boobs) works after being reflashed to Mac OF (it works also with PC bios)
    - Mac Bios handling in MorphOS differ a bit for handling card with PC Bios but more or less everything is handled (including fan control both on mac and pc bioses)
    - if flashing doesnt work please check with other atiflash version, some version works, some not, flashing under MacosX is not supported for PCIe cards
    - With Mac bios OF screen is visible, with PC bios it isn't
    - If any of card doesnt work, please check/buy another one :)
    - VGA, DVI works
    - RadeonHD may work but 3d is not working there so R500 is the best option
    - Most of Radeons need additional cable with 12V, make sure that seller adds it or buy, or make it

    3. Add some supported Network card
    - older Atheros pcie based WIFI or realtek 8168
    - newer airports (WiFi) from x64 macs don't work
    - Airport Extreme (WiFi) for G5 PCie is supported
    - you may also try some USB network cards but they aren't reliable (or poseidon isn't reliable - who knows)

    4. Turn on machine
    5. Install MorphOS
    6. Register MorphOS
    7. RCTW looks odd on R500, we know it :)

    Photos of tested GFX/Network cards:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/8Z31VYa72oX6ASsa6

    Please post any photo of card which work here, i'll add it to the google gallery.

    Q&A:
    1.
    Q: Why G5 PCIe?
    A: Because it has 4 USB sockets instead of 3 in G5 AGP!!! (additionally 2x more Cache per CPU, lower temperature and 2x more FPS in Q3, faster transfer to gfx memory so also faster scrolling in OWB)

    [ Edited by zukow 31.10.2019 - 11:52 ]
  • »14.10.19 - 22:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2641 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Thanks for this detailed report zukow!

    It will help me a great deal for answering questions during the 2019 AmiWest Show coming up in a couple weeks from now. I don't own a PCIe G5 PowerMac, but will consider looking for one if the unsupported PCIe models continue to get more "unsupport" and bigfoot continues to give us more reasons to move to more modern graphics cards that are only available with the PCIe connector.

    Your detailed report answers so many questions, it could be made into several questions and answers for an official "unsupported" FAQ somewhere on these forums, or even on the official MorphOS Dev. Team website.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »15.10.19 - 01:29
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10649 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 2. Add some supported Radeon card
    > - nvidia isn't handled and it won't be
    > - Original X1900GT mac version should work
    > - Flashed with MAC bios R500 series should also be handled [...]
    > - With Mac bios OF screen is visible, with PC bios it isn't

    Is it possible to simply add into another PCIe slot an x86 ROM ATI/AMD R500 card to the already installed PPC ROM Nvidia card, so that OpenFirmware (and Mac OS X) will use the PPC ROM card and MorphOS will use the x86 ROM card? I read this report to mean that this would work, but I may have misunderstood.


    Edit: this report confirms it

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 11.11.2019 - 08:24 ]
  • »15.10.19 - 05:26
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 948 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    1.
    Q: Why G5 PCIe?
    A: Because it has 4 USB sockets instead of 3 in G5 AGP!!!


    You didn't look well, my friend. The fourth USB in G5 AGP is there, but well hidden (amongst AGP Pro extension pins). That's why any ADC monitor will be also a USB hub too.

    (not that I reccomend using ADC - I have a strong belief that an ADC montitor blew one of the power lines on my Mac Radeon 9800 effectively trashing it)
  • »15.10.19 - 05:29
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1873 from 2003/3/5
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    You didn't look well, my friend. The fourth USB in G5 AGP is there, but well hidden (amongst AGP Pro extension pins). That's why any ADC monitor will be also a USB hub too.



    Did you check the Airport lines? :)
  • »15.10.19 - 05:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 948 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Is it possible to simply add into another PCIe slot an x86 ROM ATI/AMD R500 card to the already installed PPC ROM Nvidia card, so that OpenFirmware (and Mac OS X) will use the PPC ROM card and MorphOS will use the x86 ROM card? I read this report to mean that this would work, but I may have misunderstood.


    There's yet another report confirming that it's possible. Couldn't check for myself unfortunately, as my PCIe G5 didn't work with such config (but I believe that was because of unsupported Radeon in the first place).

    @jacadcaps: So you're saying there are even more USB lines in G5s?
  • »15.10.19 - 05:52
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1873 from 2003/3/5
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    @jacadcaps: So you're saying there are even more USB lines in G5s?


    Typically Bluetooth on such cards is done via USB. That's the case in PowerBooks at least and I doubt it'd be any different in G5s.
  • »15.10.19 - 06:02
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 948 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Typically Bluetooth on such cards is done via USB. That's the case in PowerBooks at least and I doubt it'd be any different in G5s.


    Well, the AGP G5 has got a separate connector on the motherboard for Bluetooth module while PCIe is using a combo Ariport/Bluetooth card (I believe it's the same as in late Powerbooks) but mounted on a special "RunWay" board that fits into the very same slot as standard "AGP G5" AirPort. I've read some reports that people succesfully installed standard "AGP" A1027 into "PCIe" and it worked (but the antenna connector is not compatible and therefore needs some adaptation).
  • »15.10.19 - 06:10
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 518 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    1.
    Q: Why G5 PCIe?
    A: Because it has 4 USB sockets instead of 3 in G5 AGP!!!


    You didn't look well, my friend. The fourth USB in G5 AGP is there, but well hidden (amongst AGP Pro extension pins). That's why any ADC monitor will be also a USB hub too.

    (not that I reccomend using ADC - I have a strong belief that an ADC montitor blew one of the power lines on my Mac Radeon 9800 effectively trashing it)



    Just why I mentioned "4 USB sockets", not pins or whatever
  • »15.10.19 - 07:55
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 948 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Well, I'll be more than happy to test all four as soon as I get (or flash) a proper Radeon. I'm sure I've got at least two working ones (tested in PC), but they don't seem to work with my PCIe G5 @2,3 GHz. I guess it's flashing time (luckily nobody will tell me flashing is not supported, since nothing here is officialy supported anyway).

    Of course I'll report back when/if I'm successful.
  • »15.10.19 - 08:28
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    outrun1978
    Posts: 27 from 2018/7/8
    @JPV

    Interesting you had problems with the HD3650. It’s Something I’ve mentioned about when trying all sorts of different cards on the X5000 and which I have discussed with you over on Amigaworld.net. I’ve edited this to make the relevant valid points for this discussion




    Quote:

    Quote:
    What's limiting it to the VGA output in your case? I have X1950 Pro and X1950 XT for my PowerMac G5 11,2 and they both do work fine with DVI on MorphOS.


    Who knows, I’m no video card expert although I suspect the issue could be down to the existing set of drivers being incompatible with my card type. It’s a Sapphire X1650 Pro card which I know is listed as working on AmigaOS 4 thanks to Hans comparability list and works in Linux too.

    My hypothesis is that the drivers work, but they have only been fully tested on the Apple based hardware that the majority of MorphOS users currently use. These cards are likely to be from one or two set manufacturers built to Apple’s specifications and optimised for their original use which was for MacOS. Now this isn’t a knock on the developers, but your X5000 user along with anyone using off shelf components may be using graphics cards which are from a whole host of manufacturers, creating more variables and more possible incompatibilities yet to be picked up only when discovered by the end user. In effect we the end user becomes the tester and yes I appreciate there are only so much resource available and you will rely on the end user.

    Getting back to the subject of graphics cards look at the list Hans de Ruiter has collated for Amiga OS4 compatible cards, you will find card types with the same chip set but from a different manufacturer either work or not work or only display DVI.

    I can only go off what I have personally tested and very much pot luck depending on the age and condition as well as the card manufacturer. The chances are by asking people with an X5000 to use MorphOS with no end of 2nd hand cards which are available you risk throwing up more variables in different card manufacturers and therefore more possible issues here.
    If there are any potential buyers of the system just wanting to use this for just MorphOS, be prepared to experience a few issues with any other graphics card that was supplied with your PowerMac G5. You have been warned!




    Sadly it appears a few members of your team regard X5000 users as a waste of time. If anyone hasn’t already read the comments on this thread from Asiegel and TripOS in particular page look at page 6.

    https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43436&forum=46&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0

    It stands to reason, you shouldn’t be looking to shut out the very users that may help find solutions to your problems especially when it comes to objectives like the subject of this thread.

    I am personally done with MorphOS as a platform both on my Mac Mini G4 and X5000 thanks to the rather bad experience over the past few days, so it’s will be one less person to help in finding an answer. Apologies JPV you have actually been one of the very few to bother engaging on here, but i hope my suggestion here has given you something to work on to resolve that issue you have moving forward.
  • »16.10.19 - 05:29
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1873 from 2003/3/5
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    outrun1978 wrote:
    Sadly it appears a few members of your team regard X5000 users as a waste of time. If anyone hasn’t already read the comments on this thread from Asiegel and TripOS in particular page look at page 6.



    I think you're exaggerating here. Nobody in the Team regards users as a waste of time. What you need to realize is that most members of the Team do not own a X5000. The same applies to our testers. This translates to poorer support than the PowerPC Macs get.

    And btw, TripOS isn't affiliated with the MorphOS Team.
  • »16.10.19 - 06:15
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    outrun1978
    Posts: 27 from 2018/7/8
    It’s hard for others to make sense the mixed messages I read from people involved with the team and who claim to support MorphOS.

    Please note that whilst I have been an Amiga user for 30 years, although I avoided most of the period of a supposed wars between camps.

    Of course I am well aware that there are few other X5000 owners using MorphOS. But we are told support is not meant for us, I.e people who bought an X5000 and run AmigaOS too it was meant for MorphOS users, but no one else is using one.

    We are offering support by displaying your platform at shows at our own expense, via online blogs and videos and tying to support any questions we see on various forums as best we can. You may be interested to know that I was chatting to someone at Amiga34 who promotes MorphOS online with videos and he too told me he was leaving the NG scene as he was selling some stuff there including a copy of Wipeout 2097. You can probably guess who I am talking about!

    People are offering cards or other forms of assistance and we get no reply back. So our confusion is understandable and somewhat merited I think.
  • »16.10.19 - 08:54
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1574 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    outrun1978 wrote:
    @JPV

    Interesting you had problems with the HD3650.

    Yeah, I'll report it to the team with more details later and let's see if it can be fixed. I also haven't tried it on any other computer that is the card ok for sure... but I guess it would be funny to be broken just in this special case.

    But in any case, I was testing that just out of curiosity on this "unsupported" machine, and I plan to keep an x1950 card in it in the future, because they are much faster than HD3650.
  • »16.10.19 - 09:02
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 518 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    First of all, X5000 users with MorphOS got updated drivers for Radeons (R500-R700-), both 2d and 3D and also frequency handling. These updates weren't provided for other existing MorphOS users as AGP machines have Radeon R400 max. So these updates were done for X5000 and Sam460 users. It's not MorphOS Team fault that Hyperion didn't provide working drivers for R500 Radeons and as far i know it didn't provide drivers for Radeons in X5000 - Aeon did that. So blaming MorphOS Team is ok and Hyperion isn't? 2nd thing, maybe just have two graphics cards in X5000? If it doesn't work please ask manufacturer to fix this issue in firmware - or this is also MorphOS Team fault?

    I can't understand also that you want to use 5-years-old AmigaOS4.1FE instead of newly released MorphOS3.12 with updated OWB. OWB in MorphOS will be updated, OWB (or other browser) in AmigaOS4 won't. Is 3d support more important than decent web browser? I don't think so but everyone has it own priorities.
  • »16.10.19 - 11:28
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    outrun1978
    Posts: 27 from 2018/7/8
    I believe the updated R500-700 drivers may have also had something do with your exhibit at Amiga34 more than satisfying the needs of a current X5000 or Sam 460 user. They just happen to be cards which can also be used these machines in AmigaOS with limited functionality in the same way that these offer the same limited functionality in MorphOS. Most of us were curious to see what type of card was running on the Ryzen set up and saw it was a 4650 card right?

    Support for more modern PCI-E cards will be required as part of your long term transition to AMD64 boards, so you will need to test these out regardless across all Radeon series levels. I'm certainly of the opinion that its better to have a range of eager guinea pigs than none at all. Personally for what most X5000 users I've spoken to and what they have told me, 2D support will be sufficient in MorphOS, if they wanted 3D gaming, they have the option of making full time use of a 1650-1950 range of cards in MorphOS full time which I have shown, but which none of them have done, otherwise they can stick with what they have in AmigaOS even with a more dated browsing experience. But contrary to perception, many do want to join in the fun, especially as a 2nd graphics card isn't supported in MorphOS on the X5000. My blog stats certainly can back this up ;-)
  • »16.10.19 - 12:15
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  • MorphOS Developer
    cyfm
    Posts: 388 from 2003/4/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    outrun1978 schrieb:
    I believe the updated R500-700 drivers may have also had something do with your exhibit at Amiga34 more than satisfying the needs of a current X5000 or Sam 460 user. They just happen to be cards which can also be used these machines in AmigaOS with limited functionality in the same way that these offer the same limited functionality in MorphOS. Most of us were curious to see what type of card was running on the Ryzen set up and saw it was a 4650 card right?

    Support for more modern PCI-E cards will be required as part of your long term transition to AMD64 boards, so you will need to test these out regardless across all Radeon series levels. I'm certainly of the opinion that its better to have a range of eager guinea pigs than none at all. Personally for what most X5000 users I've spoken to and what they have told me, 2D support will be sufficient in MorphOS, if they wanted 3D gaming, they have the option of making full time use of a 1650-1950 range of cards in MorphOS full time which I have shown, but which none of them have done, otherwise they can stick with what they have in AmigaOS even with a more dated browsing experience. But contrary to perception, many do want to join in the fun, especially as a 2nd graphics card isn't supported in MorphOS on the X5000. My blog stats certainly can back this up ;-)



    Well, I really don't know what made you think that " it appears a few members of your team regard X5000 users as a waste of time" but let me make some things clear to put things into perspective:

    - I don't recall this aw.net user called "TRIPOS" to be a member of our team to be honest which claimed that X5000 is a pointless system to support. But we don't dictate what (supposedly?) MorphOS users write on public forums, everyone is free to post what he thinks ....

    - Our majority of target systems doesn't even allow to put a pciE graphics card into it, so getting more pciE cards supported isn't our main focus currently.

    - There are exactly 2 developers which work on extending graphics card support on the long run which is Mark and me and our focus is on different things currently which may lead to lack of progress in this area, unfortunately.

    - We listen to reports of users if we can get hold of them. This is typically done via the embedded bug report system in MorphOS because we can't constantly scan forums for bugreports.

    - While Sam460 and X5000 systems only represent a very small userbase regarding MorphOS, we still support both, even though we didn't catch up on every bugreport we received, unfortunately. But this is a matter of priority and resources, not a matter of ignorance.

    - While A-EON Technology claims to support every operating system, I totally missed to see a MorphOS installation at their booth at Amiga34. They care about Linux and OS4 and put a lot of efforts into supporting those, obviously. And to be fair, we got 2 free x5000 boards from them to add support but we can't solely focus on this systems only.

    There are probably more points I could add right now but this is just to sum up a few. I'm sorry if the previous discussion distracted you from supporting and/or using MorphOS. This clearly wasn't our intention and I can only apologize that the discussion escalated this way even though I have not been part of it. We definitely appreciate if MorphOS is promoted by users at public shows or elsewhere.
    Be aware that X5000 is still a supported system that will receive MorphOS updates and features in the future, albeit that it takes some time to provide any feature/bugfix that users request.
  • »16.10.19 - 13:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10649 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > X5000 users with MorphOS got updated drivers for
    > Radeons (R500-R700-), both 2d and 3D

    ...with the limitation that 3D support does not go beyond R500.

    > and also frequency handling

    What does this refer to?

    > AGP machines have Radeon R400 max.

    AGP graphics cards with x86 ROM go up to R700 but I don't know if they are supported by MorphOS on PowerMac G5 AGP.

    > Hyperion [...] didn't provide drivers for Radeons
    > in X5000 - Aeon did that.

    AFAIK Hyperion provides a restricted (in terms of resolution, maybe also colour depth) driver with OS4 that enables at least OS installation. This driver is licensed from A-Eon or Hans de Ruiter.

    > maybe just have two graphics cards in X5000?

    This reportedly works with OS4/Linux (using a FirePro/FireMV card in PCIe x1 slot for Linux) but not with OS4/MorphOS. There was a dubious report of a Radeon R200 in a PCI slot working for MorphOS in the latter combination, though.

    > 5-years-old AmigaOS4.1FE

    FE Update 1 is 3 years old :-)

    > OWB in MorphOS will be updated

    Without engine update this will help only so much.
  • »16.10.19 - 13:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10649 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I believe the updated R500-700 drivers may have also had
    > something do with your exhibit at Amiga34 more than
    > satisfying the needs of a current X5000 or Sam 460 user.

    Unlikely. R500 support was added together with Sam460 support in MorphOS 3.8 in 2015. R600/R700 support was added together with X5000/Cyrus support in MorphOS 3.10 in 2018.

    > these offer the same limited functionality in MorphOS.

    R500 cards are supported in 2D and 3D by MorphOS.
  • »16.10.19 - 14:09
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1362 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    I can't understand also that you want to use 5-years-old AmigaOS4.1FE instead of newly released MorphOS3.12 with updated OWB. OWB in MorphOS will be updated, OWB (or other browser) in AmigaOS4 won't. Is 3d support more important than decent web browser? I don't think so but everyone has it own priorities.


    To add to this, besides bragging rights about age of gfx card, using newer gfx cards on OS4.1 gives you no added value. I have a G5 (AGP) and the latest card I can use with 3D is X1950. My AGP based G5 with X1950 is *faster* than X5000 with whatever newest PCIe Radeon and the current 3rd party A-eonkit 3D drivers (at last check).
  • »16.10.19 - 15:46
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1937 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    using newer gfx cards on OS4.1 gives you no added value.


    You should be able to run 4k res with some of the Radeons supported by the pay-extra drivers.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
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  • »16.10.19 - 16:03
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1362 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    using newer gfx cards on OS4.1 gives you no added value.


    You should be able to run 4k res with some of the Radeons supported by the pay-extra drivers.


    Hmm, you may have a point there. I do wonder how sketchy 4k would be in this environment though. 3D would probably still be slower than X1950 on MorphOS.
  • »16.10.19 - 16:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10649 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Is 3d support more important than decent web browser?

    > using newer gfx cards on OS4.1 gives you no added value. [...] My AGP based
    > G5 with X1950 is *faster* than X5000 with whatever newest PCIe Radeon

    Apparently, outrun1978 feels that OS4 gives him added value over MorphOS, maybe also because of OS4's superior 3D standard support (via 3rd party solution, giving him OpenGL ES 2 and OpenGL 2.1), as implied by zukow. Thus, the obvious reason for outrun1978 not choosing the G5 is that the G5 doesn't run OS4, while the X5000 does (as well as MorphOS). Hence his preference for the X5000. His choice doesn't seem to have anything to do with performance, as far as I understand.
  • »16.10.19 - 17:05
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