USB 2.0 to USB 3.0 or 3.1 devices
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Sorry that subject line was a bit obtuse, I meant what mods might be needed to upgrade the USB 2.0 driver to utilize 3.0/3.1 hardware.

    OK, we have discussed this as a possibility.
    What would be the next step, picking out a target with NEC 2.0 compatible legacy functions?
    Also, does anyone know who wrote the USB 2.0 drivers?

    [ Edited by Jim 28.05.2018 - 17:18 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.05.18 - 18:56
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9839 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > does anyone know who wrote the USB 2.0 drivers?

    Initial EHCI support for MorphOS 1.x (ehciusb.device) was created by Nicolas Det:

    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article_storyid_1235.html

    For MorphOS 2.0, UHCI/OHCI/EHCI support was reimplemented from scratch into pciusb.device.
  • »28.05.18 - 22:33
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    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1649 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    pciusb driver was written by platon42 with later contributions by cyfm and bigfoot.

    What would be the point of USB3 before going NG?
  • »29.05.18 - 03:40
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    pciusb driver was written by platon42 with later contributions by cyfm and bigfoot.

    What would be the point of USB3 before going NG?


    Other than PCI-E systems can use them?
    Although, yes, that's a limited number of users.
    And they still have PCI slots if a USB 2.0 card if needed.

    Then again, the same could be said for the majority of the new video cards Mark has added to the
    support list. Why support them if only a few can use them?

    Anyway, I'm keeping a couple of PPCs systems with the last updates as a high water mark for what happens on this ISA.

    And its been almost twelve years since USB 2.0 support was released in beta form.
    USB 3.0 has been a standard for almost ten years.
    Just because our PCI based systems can't handle that transfer rate (actually the 64 bit PCI and faster PCI-X slots might be able to, but I haven't seen the hardware).
    Why not support the cards?

    Also you're the first developer I've heard use that term, NG, Jacek.
    I kind of like the idea of MorphOS NG (or whatever its going to be called). NG, NG, heh.

    Anyway, development hasn't stopped, although the next move would normally be a bug fix.

    And actually, what I was suggesting was merely adding USB 2.0 support for some available USB 3.0 cards (they're easier to source than USB 2.0 cards for PCI-E).

    It's possible that Renesas USB 3.0 controllers might be backward compatible with our NEC drivers with a limited amount of tweaking).

    Nowhere near as big a project as Mark's Javascript JIT that he just recommitted to, and both ought to be pretty straight forward ports to X64.

    And it could provide a logical stepping stone, even if full 3.0/3.1 operation isn't implemented until the ISA switch.

    Asking why not is a little like asking "Why are you still coding for that ISA?", as I notice you are.

    I guess its just a "throw it up in the air and see who shoots it down" kind of question.
    Sorry for the disjointed reply.

    [ Edited by Jim 28.05.2018 - 23:13 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.05.18 - 04:05
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9839 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > our PCI based systems can't handle that transfer rate
    > (actually the 64 bit PCI and faster PCI-X slots might
    > be able to, but I haven't seen the hardware).

    Indeed, I couldn't find any USB3 cards for 64-bit PCI or PCI-X (while there are some for 32-bit PCI).

    > Mark's Javascript JIT that he just recommitted to, and
    > both ought to be pretty straight forward ports to X64

    I doubt a JavaScript-to-PPC JIT compiler can be ported (rather than rewritten from scratch) to any other ISA. Besides, there'd be surely no need for another JavaScript-to-x86(_64) JIT compiler when there are so many already (like for instance the one used in Odyssey on AROS/x86).
  • »29.05.18 - 12:28
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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    >I doubt a JavaScript-to-PPC JIT compiler can be ported (rather than >rewritten from scratch) to any other ISA. Besides, there'd be surely no >need for another JavaScript-to-x86(_64) JIT compiler when there are so many >already (like for instance the one used in Odyssey on AROS/x86).


    Good point, Andreas.
    I remember a member of the Apple community inquiring about Mark's work on the JIT compiler because they were interested in its potential use with TenFourFox.
    So, it really is just focused on the need in the PPC community.

    Btw, how well would a USB 3.0 card work on a PCI bus?
    Aren't there limitations due to the bus bandwidth?

    And are there Renesas based USB 3.0 PCI cards (or what ever the current name for that company is)?

    Initially my thought was as an accessory for the X5000, but I'd still rather use a PCI-E card.
    The complex bridge connection for zpCI slots on that board scares me a bit.

    Then again, if my Chaintech VIA24HT based PCI sound card didn't work, PCI-E Tremor based cards are easy to obtain.

    I'm just trying to figure out what would be the best system I could put together as a final PPC based MorphOS platform.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.05.18 - 12:47
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      Andreas_Wolf
      Posts: 9839 from 2003/5/22
      From: Germany
      > I remember a member of the Apple community inquiring about Mark's
      > work on the JIT compiler because they were interested in its
      > potential use with TenFourFox.

      Leopard Webkit, not TenFourFox (which was essentially born with its own JavaScript JIT and wouldn't be compatible with one for the WebKit engine anyway). That Apple community member is MorphZone member Tobias "internetzel" Netzel, btw.

      > So, it really is just focused on the need in the PPC community.

      And I guess PPC32 at that. It remains to be seen how easily it can be tweaked for big-endian PPC64 or whether bigfoot's release will support even both.

      > how well would a USB 3.0 card work on a PCI bus?
      > Aren't there limitations due to the bus bandwidth?

      Sure. It wouldn't be quite as limited with a 66 MHz card in a 66 MHz slot, but I'm not sure whether the existing USB3 PCI cards support that.

      > And are there Renesas based USB 3.0 PCI cards
      > (or what ever the current name for that company is)?

      I found 3 different USB3 PCI cards available in the EU. The 2 cheaper ones are listed to have NEC/Renesas uPD720202 chipset (for the other there is no chipset info given).
    • »29.05.18 - 13:51
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    • Jim
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      Jim
      Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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      >Leopard Webkit...not TenFourFox (which was essentially born with its own JavaScript JIT and wouldn't be compatible with one for the one for WebKit engine anyway).1

      I should have paid closer attention.
      Do you have any references for that project?
      I assume by Leopard, they are referring to OSX.

      >That Apple community member is MorphZone member Tobias "internetzel" Netzel, btw.

      Cool, I have heard of him.

      >...It remains to be seen how easily it can be tweaked for big-endian PPC64 or whether bigfoot's release will support even both.

      Intriguing idea.
      Only a few MorphOS developers seem interested in discussing PPC64, and I'm not dragging anyone into that argument.
      But most of the features that are being thought about in an X64 fork of MorphOS could be achieved on PPC64.

      >I found 3 different [Renesas/NEC based cards]USB3 PCI cards available in the EU.
      >The 2 cheaper ones are listed to have NEC/Renesas uPD720202 chipset (for the other there is no chipset info given).

      Useful, I couldn't find US listings I will have to search again.
      But I am really impressed with the uPD720202 based card I have for my laptop.
      It more than triples the transfer rate of a 2.5" SATA drives I have tested via a USB to SATA adapter.

      Of course, and external eSATA drive could always be used as a substitute, and curiously the laptop I am using has an eSATA port, but I have never explored using it.
      USB all my systems have, not all have eSATA.
      "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
    • »29.05.18 - 14:19
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    • Jim
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      Jim
      Posts: 4629 from 2009/1/28
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      >>> I found 3 different [Renesas/NEC based cards]USB3 PCI cards

      >> [...]

      That's a misquote. As I wrote, it's three USB3 PCI cards, two of which are listed to use said NEC/Renesas chipset. The chipset manufacturer and chipset of the third card are unknown.


      I should know by now not to edit or summarize your comment (at least, not inaccurately).

      In the meanwhile, thanks for the additional references.
      "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.05.18 - 15:39
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